Struggle with Sacraments

Markie Boy

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So I am here trying to learn, and trying to find a home - so please take my thoughts as someone thinking - not picking internet squabbles.

If sacraments offer grace or are a means of grace - why is it communities that have sacraments don't look any different than those that don't?

It would seem sacramental communities should look and act more full of grace than those without - but I have not seen any real difference.

I have a friend that was in seminary to be a Catholic priest. After leaving and working in a factory, he commented on how the factory had as many nice people as the church basically - possibly more!

I just don't see the evidence for sacramental grace.
 

HTacianas

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So I am here trying to learn, and trying to find a home - so please take my thoughts as someone thinking - not picking internet squabbles.

If sacraments offer grace or are a means of grace - why is it communities that have sacraments don't look any different than those that don't?

It would seem sacramental communities should look and act more full of grace than those without - but I have not seen any real difference.

I have a friend that was in seminary to be a Catholic priest. After leaving and working in a factory, he commented on how the factory had as many nice people as the church basically - possibly more!

I just don't see the evidence for sacramental grace.

This might get a little long. And it has to do with synergism vs. monergism. Synergism is the idea that man cooperates with God through grace to attain salvation. Monergism holds that God works through grace to provide salvation without the efforts of man. Monergism is a core belief of Calvinism. One of the tenets of Calvinism is that man is totally depraved, unable to do any good thing on his own. You have inadvertently stumbled across the primary reason I reject total depravity categorically. You have found through your own observations that it isn't true. There are good people both inside and outside the Church. Jesus said:

Mat 12:35 “A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

If man is totally depraved, how then can there be a good man and how can he bring forth good things? But many people by nature do indeed do good things. Just as the example of the factory workers you gave. The gospel is intended to teach all people to do good and reject evil. But we have to cooperate with that in order to attain salvation. We do in fact receive grace through the sacraments but we must then cooperate with that grace for it to affect good in our lives. For some people it is easier than for others. Read the parable of the sower of Matthew 13:18-23. Some people receive grace through the sacraments and put it to good use. Some don't. But then some who do not receive grace still do good:

Rom 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,

So in the end, this is more complex than we might think it is.
 
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kdm1984

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I'm just a laywoman, but I don't recall being taught that sacramental grace is something that should make our communities look outwardly nicer, or have better works, which is what you seem to think should be the corollary to such a belief.

Regardless of doctrine, every community struggles with sin. I haven't found a single Christian denomination where members don't struggle with some sin or other. It's why so many unbelievers don't hold to the faith in any shape or form -- they always say, I see people just as nice and moral without Christianity as those who claim to be of the faith!
 
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prodromos

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So I am here trying to learn, and trying to find a home - so please take my thoughts as someone thinking - not picking internet squabbles.

If sacraments offer grace or are a means of grace - why is it communities that have sacraments don't look any different than those that don't?

It would seem sacramental communities should look and act more full of grace than those without - but I have not seen any real difference.

I have a friend that was in seminary to be a Catholic priest. After leaving and working in a factory, he commented on how the factory had as many nice people as the church basically - possibly more!

I just don't see the evidence for sacramental grace.
The Church is a hospital for sinners. If a doctor prescribes medicines and/or exercises and his patient either out of stubborness or laziness does not follow his doctor's advice, then their condition will not improve. Unfortunately, this describes many people in the Church. They have all the resources the Church provides in order to heal their souls and grow in holiness, but instead do nothing more than show up for worship once a week. Those who do avail themselves of the resources provided, confession, vigils, almsgiving, holy communion, prayer, etc. grow in holiness and can become Saints, close friends to God who are filled to overflowing with the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'm just a laywoman, but I don't recall being taught that sacramental grace is something that should make our communities look outwardly nicer, or have better works, which is what you seem to think should be the corollary to such a belief.

Regardless of doctrine, every community struggles with sin. I haven't found a single Christian denomination where members don't struggle with some sin or other. It's why so many unbelievers don't hold to the faith in any shape or form -- they always say, I see people just as nice and moral without Christianity as those who claim to be of the faith!

Right, the declared righteousness of God--our justification before God--is about our forgiveness. Not about our works. Good works ought to proceeds from faith, and indeed it's a serious problem if they don't; but our status and position in Christ comes entirely by way of Christ's finished work and His righteousness which is ours as pure grace. So that the grace of God in Word and Sacrament are about God declaring us righteous for Christ's sake. God is shouting from all four corners of the Church, "I forgive you!"

When we step outside and into the world, as parents, children, friends, neighbors, doctors, lawyers, or retail store workers (or anything) we now are invited to live out what we have received for our neighbor. To take up our cross and follow Christ.

When we fall short, when we fail (and we do, of course we do) we are confronted by the brutal truth of the Law that we are sinners in need of God's mercy, and so we confess and repent, seeking our only salvation in Jesus daily. Because of His faithfulness to us. Which is why, again, we hear the word, we receive the Supper, we remember our baptism, etc. Because, as already said, God is here declaring us forgiven for Christ's sake, there is grace here because Christ suffered and died for us, and God loves us and keeps us in faith, in Christ, by the power and work of the Holy Spirit.

So daily we cling to Christ, for in Him alone is hope and salvation and forgiveness and justification before God.

Even when we fail, God's faithfulness does not falter.

Some wrongly think that this means we are therefore free to live sinful and lawless lives; but it's just the opposite. Paul reminds us in Romans 6 that in light of God's grace in our baptism we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God; no longer slaves to sin, but slaves of righteousness. "Shall we go on sinning that sin may abound? Heaven forbid!" is what he says.

It's that when we sin, we don't have to be defeated and destroyed and have our guilty conscience lead us to despair and away from faith and hope in Jesus; it's that when we sin we can come boldly before the Throne of Grace in repentance, and the word of God comes to us: "Your sins are forgiven".

The role of good works, then, factor not into who we are before God in Christ; but rather who we are before our neighbor in love--as disciples of Christ, servants and subjects of our Lord.

I need Jesus every hour of every day. Just like that hymn says, "Jesus I need Thee, every hour I need Thee". That's the grace of God in Word and Sacrament.

And in that word I can trust that, even though it is not always obvious to me, God is working His good work in me. Without that faith, without that grace, without the Holy Spirit I would not even want to love God and love my neighbor. Without that I would not even confess I am a sinner. So no matter how wretched I might behold myself in the mirror of the Law, I can be comforted by God's grace and love for me in Christ, which He declares to me all day long in Word and Sacrament. And I can put one step forward, without being broken and dying on the side of the road, because Jesus carries and holds me. But it is from Him that my heart is being cleansed and changed, that my mind is being renewed. And while I may not perceive that I am a "good person" as though I were without fault or struggle or temptation or failure, I can trust that He is faithful, He is working, He is keeping me, and calling me, and inviting me day by day to follow Him. And He is my Help, my Physician, and my Refuge.

That my flesh is daily scourged and mortified in repentance. And my heart and mind are daily renewed by grace that I might behold His grace which is forever set before me in the plain and simple gifts of God: Word and Sacrament.

"For Thou art with me, Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me."

-CryptoLutheran
 
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FireDragon76

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So I am here trying to learn, and trying to find a home - so please take my thoughts as someone thinking - not picking internet squabbles.

If sacraments offer grace or are a means of grace - why is it communities that have sacraments don't look any different than those that don't?

In my experience, they do. I don't think you are looking hard enough.

And keep in mind, just because grace is present doesn't mean people can't reject that grace. It is possible to receive sacraments unworthily. As St. John Chrysostom said, "If you do not find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find him in the chalice". Sacraments are not magic. As has been said previously, they have to be part of a holistic vision of a Christian life.
 
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Dan Perez

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In my experience, they do. I don't think you are looking hard enough.

And keep in mind, just because grace is present doesn't mean people can't reject that grace. It is possible to receive sacraments unworthily. As St. John Chrysostom said, "If you do not find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find him in the chalice". Sacraments are not magic. As has been said previously, they have to be part of a holistic vision of a Christian life.
Just look at the Greek TEXT , like BLUE LETTER BIBLE or BIBLE HUB and see if the Greek words SACRAMENT , PURGATORY , CHURCH , POPE , CONFESSIONAL are NOT the Greek text , very easy !!

dan p
 
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