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Monksailor

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I have a long-time friend in Sunday School class who has been torn up over a married daughter, mid 20's with a few children, who demanded an apology from him for hurting her husband but did not disclose the offense. He repeatedly tried to find out what he was supposed to have done so he could work it out but his daughter kept cutting off communication (texts , email, & snail mail) while still not informing my friend of the original offense and eventually blackmailed him to give the apology by withholding all of the grandchildren till he did! He and his wife are so distraught. It has been since two summers ago, I think, and his daughter has had another baby last summer and she didn't inform them; pregnancy or birth. He and his wife love them very much and were very much a part of their lives. He was always talking about them. He loved them so and by what he said the grandchildren were very strongly bonded to him and his wife.



He is now saying that he is going to give an apology for anything just to get the grandchildren back. He and his wife cannot see anything he did or said for which an apology would be needed but he will accept guilt for whatever just to have the joy of their grandchildren back. I told him that if he did that that he would be setting himself up for more abuse from his daughter and whether he realized it or not he would be putting himself and his wife into an oppressed position and that their paranoia of her doing it again would be like handing her a leash with a choker chain with spikes. He had shared about ten or more years ago that when he was deployed into combat somewhere for over a year his daughter shifted 180 degrees from a young adolescent who loved Jesus and was very involved in church activities for youth, even prayer meets at McDs EARLY before school, and was a good student at school to the opposite by the time he got back (his son, her older bro/only sibling, who was a Marine was deployed to the most dangerous zone in Iraq, simultaneously.) She has never let him, her dad, kiss her since, but she denies anything is wrong. She denies that her personality ever changed and insists that she never was involved in church or anything good as her mother and father remember. She ran away after he returned and eventually found the man she is married to now, two years after the birth of their first. She now is involved heavily in the church, even leading, I think he said but she gave/gives no credit to her parents and still denies her past good years. She lives only a few miles away while his son and family, across the country.



Did I ill advise him? Should he apologize for anything just to try to get the joy he had with his grandchildren back? He and his wife see their only other two grandchildren twice a year or so. As I see it, I do not think it would be too joyful with the paranoia of not knowing what is next and probably oppression attached and there is no guarantee she won't do it again or telling what she told the grandchildren to explain the sudden disappearance of their only close grandparents at that time.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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... ... >>> to the opposite by the time he got back (his son, her older bro/only sibling, who was a Marine was deployed to the most dangerous zone in Iraq, simultaneously.) She has never let him, her dad, kiss her since, but she denies anything is wrong. She denies that her personality ever changed and insists that she never was involved in church or anything good as her mother and father remember. She ran away after he returned and eventually found the man she is married to now, two years after the birth of their first. She now is involved heavily in the church, even leading, I think he said but she gave/gives no credit to her parents and still denies her past good years. She lives only a few miles away while his son and family, across the country.

Often I've seen people 'flip' from the LIGHT, to the dark side, in or not in church.
Also a few have 'flipped' out of the darkness, to the LIGHT, in spite of church! (another topic probably).

When they get "support", acceptance, friendship in some church after going into darkness,
they fear being exposed, perhaps, and hide their reasons, their past, even will NOT reveal who influenced them ! i.e. they do NOT want to get help....
and
they will (or have) continued to harm those who used to know them, family or not, no matter what they say, as they are under the control of the prince of the power of the air (either still, or again). (Ephesians 2) ..... i.e. even those they are 'friends' with, are subject to harm by them, and many false accusations, often "in secret"/ gossip / which the world (even churches) thrive on and encourage !? AND in courts, which likewise have basically no reason nor funds nor procedutes to search out the truth.(in churches or outside of churches)
 
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Lady Donna Marie

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[QUOTE="Monksailor,

Unfortunately, this is a common problem that grandparents are facing with their children. Keeping the grandchildren away and not just once, but more than once, like you mentioned. It does harm to the grandchildren as well as the grandparents. I know it's not healthy what parents are doing to their grandchildren or the grandparents. However, in the mean time there are grandparents missing their grandchildren and vice versa.

It would be quite a different story of the grandparents were drug addicts or abusive and the grandchildren needed to stay away, but when that is not the case then the anger/fear/lack of connection or may have you is going on with the parent of the grandchildren is need for much prayer for there to be a re-uniting of a solid relationship and not flaky.

Heaven help us all. Such a sad thing to endure and wrongfully so. God be with them all and heal what is causing such an issue.
 
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mina

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Parents can decide who their children see and spend time with. Maybe the daughter has another side to this story and a good reason for limiting contact; none of us know. Unfortunately your friend can't do much about it except keep trying to communicate with his daughter and perhaps ask her to sit in to a counseling session with a mediator or pastor. Unfortunately ( or in some cases fortunately) grandparents don't have the say in seeing grandkids. Grandparent visitation rights really only come into play if a parent is deceased and the surviving parent then cuts off all contact with the deceased spouse's parents when there had previously been a loving and close relationship; and that is only in a few states.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Heaven help us all. Such a sad thing to endure and wrongfully so. God be with them all and heal what is causing such an issue.
HalleluYAH for HIS GRACE, and HIS SON JESUS our SAVIOR HEALER COMFORTER MESSIAH RESCUER ! :)
 
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miamited

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Hi monksailor,

I'm curious why he needs to know what he has to be sorry for. The daughter wants an apology so he should offer up an apology. He just won't be able to be specific about what he's apologizing for. Something along the lines of, I'm sorry that I spoke badly of your husband and anything I may have done to hurt him. Done!

Is it really a big deal to apologize to someone who, even though you may not be aware of what you did to hurt them, are quite obviously hurting over something. Just do it!!! What is it a pride thing that we don't want to appear broken to our children? Man, I tell my son all the time that I'm not the one he needs to follow, but to follow Jesus. I think he understands that I'm a human being. Suffering the same sin nature that everyone else, who knows the Lord, strives to overcome. I am by absolutely no means even near perfect, so I'm not worried or fearful of giving an apology if someone asks. I probably did do something that they took as mean spirited.

We don't always understand how other people take our words.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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miamited

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Hi again monksailor,

You know, I was just reminded of a similar incident in my own life. I have this memory of my mother, when I was a child, saying something, and I honestly can't remember what it was now, that took me by surprise and gave me concern. I also remember several years later, when I was an adult probably in my 30's, that the subject came up and I mentioned to my mother that I still remembered her making the comment to me and I had been hurt by it.

My mother quickly came over to me and gave me a big hug, here I am a grown man, and apologized and said, "Gosh Tim (that was my family name) I'm so sorry, That wasn't at all what I meant." We then had a good laugh over it and as I think back on it now, I can't even remember what it was about. But my point is that my mom was happy to offer me an apology even though she didn't ever mean for me to take her comments as some sort of affront for which I should have been offended.

Soap operas are full of conversations where someone takes offense at someone's remarks and then, instead of clearing it up, go on for years holding feelings of anger, hate and grudge over what was said that was in no way intended to offend. My mother, all of those years between the comment and our reconciling over it, never had a clue that those couple of sentences that she uttered a couple of decades earlier had made the impression that they did on me. So, for your friend, tell him to get off his rear end and go apologize and spend some time restoring the relationship. Tell him that he had better not leave that conversation without telling his daughter at least 5 times that he loves her. Tell him to be contrite and even if he thinks she's being unfair, he's the father. He's the one who is supposed to work to fix such hurts. That's what a loving father does.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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My daughter is doing the same thing.

I can see two reasons:
  • I did not give my blessing to their marriage (believer to non-believer), but I have not been oppositional after-the-fact. He seems like a nice enough guy.
  • There seems to be some class-ism being generated by the in-laws.
I figure it to be youthful idealism/arrogance that may subside when life beats them up a little.
 
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Monksailor

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Ted, The church he and I attend and Pastors on the radio I listen to such as Dr. Charles Swindoll, Dr. Charles Stanley, and Dr. James Dobson all preach that just saying, "I am sorry" in a generalized way w/o specifically identifying the offense is inadequate. Many do this just so they can feel good about themselves and in an attempt to not have to humble themselves or repent/change their behavior. For the offended to really feel like you are truly sorry for hurting them and not just sorry you got caught or are being held accountable the offender needs to humble themselves and put themselves at the mercy of the offended. We are taught that an apology which identifies the offense specifically must be finished with, "Will you forgive me for (...specific)?" Anyway, that is the way he and I understand apologies. That is why he needed to know. If one is REALLY sorry don't you think they would want to know so that they could change their behavior (repent) so as to not hurt them again??? For a relationship one really cares about and wants to be more than superficial, business-like, or "flaky?"
 
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How can an apology be sincere if you don't know what you are apologising for.

The incident the daughter has in mind could be more about her rebellion than the fathers behaviour and he could unwittingly be reinforcing her fantasy about the father being too harsh or even worse.

How much of this behaviour prevails because we don't contest the spiritual entities driving it?

We read this in Matthew concerning John the Baptist...

"It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

We read this about our nature being as Elijah...

16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail. 17Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth yielded its crops.…

Get together with mature folks in unity... ask for His contempt against the powers driving the issue.

Declare in agreement against these in Jesus name. Give thanks for a good outcome.
 
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Monksailor

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How can an apology be sincere if you don't know what you are apologising for.

The incident the daughter has in mind could be more about her rebellion than the fathers behaviour and he could unwittingly be reinforcing her fantasy about the father being too harsh or even worse.

He has shared this exact concern with me. What is more is who knows what lies she may have told her children about her father to put the blame on him for her cruel treatment of him (and her children.) If he offers a general, non-specific apology he has just rendered a plea of guilty for whatever lies his daughter told her children and he has permanently lost his grandchildren, anyway, their respect and honor, and without that it is nothing, I would think, for me, anyway.
 
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Carl Emerson

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He has shared this exact concern with me. What is more is who knows what lies she may have told her children about her father to put the blame on him for her cruel treatment of him (and her children.) If he offers a general, non-specific apology he has just rendered a plea of guilty for whatever lies his daughter told her children and he has permanently lost his grandchildren, anyway, their respect and honor, and without that it is nothing, I would think, for me, anyway.

Yes I suspected that might be the case...
 
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Monksailor

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He says that a Christian counselor he has seen for this informed him that there is a classic psychological syndrome that an adolescent girl can get caught up in if she has her father removed as he was. They act out in just a way his daughter did. She not only had her father but her only and older brother removed and put in harms way at the same time. My friend has tried to suggest that this could be an issue but she denies that she made any change but he says that the record at school and at church also disagree. And I remember her. She was just as he says, at least in church youth group. And I saw her once sitting on the edge of her seat intently listening to the Pastor not far from when he went overseas. I saw him checking her out. He was so proud of her.
 
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mina

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Encourage him to keep seeing his counselor. I honestly think you should step back and not discuss or advise his personal family business. He shouldn't be analyzing his daughter or bad mouthing her with you. There are interactions and history you are probably not privy to.
 
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...if she has her father removed as he was.
...but her only and older brother removed and put in harms way at the same time.
...not far from when he went overseas. I saw him checking her out. He was so proud of her.
I cannot understand these statements...
full
 
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Monksailor

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I cannot understand these statements...
full
  • "if she has her father removed as he was. They act out in just a way his daughter did. She not only had her father but her only and older brother removed and put in harms way at the same time."
This refers to my first post or so where I shared that both were deployed overseas into military combat simultaneously: Removed from providing a protective stance/protecting her or available to/for her.




  • "..not far from when he went overseas. I saw him checking her out. He was so proud of her."
He was sitting with her and his wife in the pew and he had glanced over and seen how interested she was, as I, and I could see a real proud look on his face. He was very concerned about being a good father and raising his children in a way that they loved Jesus. He did not have that and wanted to give his children better.
 
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Monksailor

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Encourage him to keep seeing his counselor. I honestly think you should step back and not discuss or advise his personal family business. He shouldn't be analyzing his daughter or bad mouthing her with you. There are interactions and history you are probably not privy to.

I have known him many, many years. We are very close and he is closer than a brother to me. He knows and approves of my getting an assortment of advice for him. He is not good on computers . Maybe there is someone out there who has successfully worked through this. He said that he was seeing a counselor to help him grieve the loss of his grandchildren and to come to terms with not being able to communicate and reason with his daughter as she had completely cut him off and it frustrated him to no end to not be able to reconciliate. I think he said that he was told that reconciliation would not be possible if she is not humble and repentant or something like that and he needed to wait. His concern is that his young grandchildren will be grown and probably not even remember him or his wife by the time their daughter has come to her senses.

Like you say, it is in her absolute control and right to be as controlling as she wants to be with keeping her children away from anyone but it is also true that with responsibility and rights comes accountability to Him in exercising such. Their concern is that there is going to be a ton of collateral damage from all of this; including and most importantly, children suffer the most from things like this over time. This is their immediate concern for being so motivated to expedite resolving the problem to even dysfunctionally apologizing for whatever she wants.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I have known him many, many years. We are very close and he is closer than a brother to me. He knows and approves of my getting an assortment of advice for him. He is not good on computers . Maybe there is someone out there who has successfully worked through this. He said that he was seeing a counselor to help him grieve the loss of his grandchildren and to come to terms with not being able to communicate and reason with his daughter as she had completely cut him off and it frustrated him to no end to not be able to reconciliate. I think he said that he was told that reconciliation would not be possible if she is not humble and repentant or something like that and he needed to wait. His concern is that his young grandchildren will be grown and probably not even remember him or his wife by the time their daughter has come to her senses.

Like you say, it is in her absolute control to be as controlling as she wants to be with keeping her children away from them but that doesn't make it right. Their concern is that there is going to be a ton of collateral damage from all of this; including and most importantly, children suffer the most from things like this over time. This is their immediate concern for being so motivated to expedite resolving the problem to even dysfunctionally apologizing for whatever she wants.

Has he considered writing an auto-biography in which he states the record straight.

The writing of this could be therapeutic in itself and at the right time read by the grand children?
 
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Monksailor

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I don't know. He did tell me that that was one point he used trying to get his daughter come clean before she broke communication. He told her that some day her children might look them up and ask they abandoned them and he told her that he had all of the texts, emails, and letters in a file to show them who REALLY was responsible. he had hoped that would make her come around but it made her even more cruel. She started creating more and subsequent things apparently even worse than whatever the first was out of his attempts to guess what could be needed to be apologized for or what could be causing the issue to be forced by her. He thinks that it is her attempt to cover up the original and ruin his proof that she started it frivolously.

But he told me that having that stuff to explain why they disappeared from the children's lives if they ever come around and ask was no comfort to him as he is thinking about not being in their lives all of their developmental years. He and I agree on the fact that one cannot make up for lost time. From my own experience and observations one NEVER makes up for time lost. You can create new memories but the composite, integrated past memories remain intact without you and the influence and significance of you having been there then. That is a misnomer people use to appease their guilt; a self-deception. Those children will not have all of those fond memories of time spent together and all of the things my friend and his wife could have taught them in the past as the children developed their adult character; the grand parents won't ever be "part" of them; related. They will just be friends, at best, and only related on paper somewhere if this doesn't resolve soon.
 
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