Straightening out a point on reprobation

Epiphoskei

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Since it seems a common theme of late to allege that Calvinists assert God is doing something to keep people out of heaven, we're going to have a little variant on a Turing Test here. A Turing Test is an examination designed to distinguish which respondents are computers and which are humans. By extension, I propose a challenge to see if the synergists are capable of passing for Calvinists long enough to demonstrate that they understand Calvinism enough to make this charge.

Pretending to be a Calvinist, explain what God does to the reprobate to keep them out of heaven. Show your work.
 

janxharris

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Since it seems a common theme of late to allege that Calvinists assert God is doing something to keep people out of heaven, we're going to have a little variant on a Turing Test here. A Turing Test is an examination designed to distinguish which respondents are computers and which are humans. By extension, I propose a challenge to see if the synergists are capable of passing for Calvinists long enough to demonstrate that they understand Calvinism enough to make this charge.

Pretending to be a Calvinist, explain what God does to the reprobate to keep them out of heaven. Show your work.

We speak of predestination as God's eternal decree by which He compacted with Himself what He willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others.
(J. Calvin Book 3, xxi, p.5)

Essentially, there are two groups: group E(lect) are horrible sinners and group R(eprobates) are horrible sinners. God walks straight past group R and regenerates group E. Group E, because of this regeneration, receive eternal life. Group R receive eternal death.

The 'doing' something' is in choosing group E without a good reason whilst not choosing group R without good reason.
 
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Hammster

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We speak of predestination as God's eternal decree by which He compacted with Himself what He willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others.
(J. Calvin Book 3, xxi, p.5)

Essentially, there are two groups: group E(lect) are horrible sinners and group R(eprobates) are horrible sinners. God walks straight past group R and regenerates group E. Group E, because of this regeneration, receive eternal life. Group R receive eternal death.

The 'doing' something' is in choosing group E without a good reason whilst not choosing group R without good reason.

That's not an answer that a Calvinist would give. So far, you've failed the OP.
 
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Hammster

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Please do assist me in my error.

"The 'doing' something' is in choosing group E without a good reason whilst not choosing group R without good reason."

Not a reformed response.
 
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janxharris

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"The 'doing' something' is in choosing group E without a good reason whilst not choosing group R without good reason."

Not a reformed response.

You are right. I cannot even pretend to be a Calvinist without slipping into Arminian broadsides.
 
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bling

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Since it seems a common theme of late to allege that Calvinists assert God is doing something to keep people out of heaven, we're going to have a little variant on a Turing Test here. A Turing Test is an examination designed to distinguish which respondents are computers and which are humans. By extension, I propose a challenge to see if the synergists are capable of passing for Calvinists long enough to demonstrate that they understand Calvinism enough to make this charge.

Pretending to be a Calvinist, explain what God does to the reprobate to keep them out of heaven. Show your work.
The reprobate does everything himself that results in him not going to heaven.

What keeps the reprobate from going to heaven? Might be the question you’re trying to address?
 
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travelah

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Since it seems a common theme of late to allege that Calvinists assert God is doing something to keep people out of heaven, we're going to have a little variant on a Turing Test here. A Turing Test is an examination designed to distinguish which respondents are computers and which are humans. By extension, I propose a challenge to see if the synergists are capable of passing for Calvinists long enough to demonstrate that they understand Calvinism enough to make this charge.

Pretending to be a Calvinist, explain what God does to the reprobate to keep them out of heaven. Show your work.

God decrees and determines every action and every thought that man does so that there is nothing that is not under His sovereign control and in doing so, God has deliberately, for his glory, predestined some men to glory and predestined most to eternal damnation. Of course, God has fooled us into thinking that He does not desire such and that He actually works against his own will.

Gosh, ain't Calvinism fun? I'd ask you to pretend to be an Arminian but it would be an epic fail.
 
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God decrees and determines every action and every thought that man does so that there is nothing that is not under His sovereign control and in doing so, God has deliberately, for his glory, predestined some men to glory and predestined most to eternal damnation. Of course, God has fooled us into thinking that He does not desire such and that He actually works against his own will.

Gosh, ain't Calvinism fun? I'd ask you to pretend to be an Arminian but it would be an epic fail.

Your post certainly was an epic fail.
 
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seeingeyes

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Since it seems a common theme of late to allege that Calvinists assert God is doing something to keep people out of heaven, we're going to have a little variant on a Turing Test here. A Turing Test is an examination designed to distinguish which respondents are computers and which are humans. By extension, I propose a challenge to see if the synergists are capable of passing for Calvinists long enough to demonstrate that they understand Calvinism enough to make this charge.

Pretending to be a Calvinist, explain what God does to the reprobate to keep them out of heaven. Show your work.

Actually, I'd like to hear the answer a Calvinist would give.

What does God do to the reprobate to keep them out of heaven?
 
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Skala

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God decrees and determines every action and every thought that man does so that there is nothing that is not under His sovereign control and in doing so, God has deliberately, for his glory, predestined some men to glory and predestined most to eternal damnation. Of course, God has fooled us into thinking that He does not desire such and that He actually works against his own will.

Gosh, ain't Calvinism fun? I'd ask you to pretend to be an Arminian but it would be an epic fail.

In your view, God created humans that he knew, if he created them, would end up in hell.

Not sure why you think this is a truth exclusive to Calvinism.

This is why James White says the only consistent Arminianism is open theism.

The Arminian, since he's not an open theist, cannot say that God is doing what he can to keep people out of hell - for he created them knowing full well that they would end up there!

The sooner you embrace open theism, the better, Travelah.
 
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Epiphoskei

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Then they could go there if they want. :)

Nope.

There are two issues here. One, there is such a thing as being hopelessly damned. That's the state we'd be in if Christ hadn't saved us. It doesn't follow that people have to be able to get to heaven if God doesn't keep them out of heaven. I can't go to Mars, That doesn't require that God is thwarting my attempts to go there - any attempts I made would fall short in and of themselves.

Now it is true that God died in such a way that every human who believes will be saved, such that no human can claim to be hopelessly damned, so the first point is more an objection about logical rigor - this hadn't been stated so far, thus conclusions which follow from another point and this point should not be said to follow from that other point without explicitly stating all the foregoing first. But there is a second, less technical objection - lots of reprobate are going to want to go to heaven. The Bible doesn't say that those who want to go to heaven can go to heaven, it says those who believe go to heaven. So your statement would be closer to correct if you had said "Then they can go there if they believe."
 
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We speak of predestination as God's eternal decree by which He compacted with Himself what He willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others.
(J. Calvin Book 3, xxi, p.5)

I posted these in another thread, most of them speak to the topic, and give a fuller view of John Calvin's view, than your post might suggest. So for your consideration a select few quotations:

From Calvin’s Commentaries:

Genesis 6:13 “This was, truly, a peculiar privilege of grace, that God warned Noah of the future deluge. Indeed, he frequently commands his threatening to be proposed to the elect, and reprobate, in common; that by inviting both to repentance, he may humble the former, and render the latter inexcusable.”

Jeremiah 15:1 “Though then he extended his solicitude to the whole body of the people, he yet knew that there was a chosen seed. So at this day, when we pray, we ought, according to the rule of charity, to include all, for we cannot fix on those whom God has chosen or whom he has rejected; and thus we ought, as far as we can, to promote the salvation of all; and yet we know, as a general truth, that many are reprobate for whom our prayers will avail nothing; we know this, and yet we cannot point out any one as by the finger. So then the prayer of Jeremiah was not useless; but in its very form, as they say, it was not heard, for he wished the whole people to be saved; but as God had resolved to destroy the ungodly, such as were beyond the reach of hope on account of their untamable obstinacy, Jeremiah obtained only in part what he prayed for, — that God would preserve his Church, which then was in a manner hidden.”

Isaiah 54:13 “Those only “who have been foreordained to life” (Acts 13:48) are sincerely teachable, and are entitled to be ranked among the disciples. The Gospel is preached indiscriminately to the elect and the reprobate; but the elect alone come to Christ, because they have been “taught by God,” and therefore to them the Prophet undoubtedly refers.”

Ezekiel 2:3 “Now, if any one objects that God acts cruelly while he so purposely blinds men, that those who are already sufficiently lost perish twice or thrice over, the answer is at hand — God offers his word indiscriminately to the good and bad, but it works by his Spirit in the elect, as I have already said; and as to the reprobate, the doctrine is useful, as it renders them without excuse. Next, that their obstinacy may be broken down — for since they refuse to yield willingly to God, it is necessary that they should yield when conquered — when, therefore, God sees the reprobate thus broken down, he strikes them with the hammer of his word. At length he takes away all excuse of ignorance, because being convicted of their own conscience, whether they will or not, they become their own judges, and their mouth is stopped.”

Matthew 15:13 “To those who willingly perish the Gospel thus becomes, as Paul assures us, the savor of death unto death, (2 Corinthians 2:16) for, though it is offered to all for salvation, it does not yield this fruit in any but the elect.”

John 3:16 “And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life. Let us remember, on the other hand, that while life is promised universally to all who believe in Christ, still faith is not common to all. For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith.” (I left this quote in my list just for you, since you created a thread on this verse recently)

John 7:37 “Yet it is highly useful to us, that the Evangelist introduces Christ exclaiming aloud, Let all who thirst come to me. For we infer from it that the invitation was not addressed to one or two persons only, or in a low and gentle whisper, but that this doctrine is proclaimed to all, in such a manner that none may be ignorant of it, but those who, of their own accord shutting their ears, will not receive this loud and distinct cry.”

Romans 1:16 “The gospel is indeed offered to all for their salvation, but the power of it appears not everywhere: and that it is the savor of death to the ungodly, does not proceed from what it is, but from their own wickedness.”

I especially like his commentary on Jer 15:1.
 
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seeingeyes

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Nope.

There are two issues here. One, there is such a thing as being hopelessly damned. That's the state we'd be in if Christ hadn't saved us. It doesn't follow that people have to be able to get to heaven if God doesn't keep them out of heaven. I can't go to Mars, That doesn't require that God is thwarting my attempts to go there - any attempts I made would fall short in and of themselves.

Well, God does, in effect thwart your efforts to go to Mars. He created you ambitious and imaginative enough to want to go there, yet he gave you a body which limits you to Earth. So nature itself, created by God, is what limits you.

Likewise, with regard to heaven, the reprobate may desire to go there, as he is created in the image of God, yet is limited by his God-given nature.

Now it is true that God died in such a way that every human who believes will be saved, such that no human can claim to be hopelessly damned, so the first point is more an objection about logical rigor - this hadn't been stated so far, thus conclusions which follow from another point and this point should not be said to follow from that other point without explicitly stating all the foregoing first.

I don't see how the second part of the bold follows from the first part.

It seems to say that one must believe in hopeless damnation to be saved, therefore no one can claim to be hopelessly damned (because if they truly believed that, they'd be saved).


But there is a second, less technical objection - lots of reprobate are going to want to go to heaven. The Bible doesn't say that those who want to go to heaven can go to heaven, it says those who believe go to heaven. So your statement would be closer to correct if you had said "Then they can go there if they believe."

Very well. They can go if they believe.

So then what does God do to keep the reprobate out of heaven? He makes him by his very nature unable to believe. Hence, unable to go to heaven.
 
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