Stockton’s Basic-Income Experiment Pays Off

ThatRobGuy

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what suggests that pragmatism?

You mean in terms of policy? Or something else?

In terms of policy, the Scandinavian countries that offer tuition-free college have very rigorous entrance requirements to even get in.

https://www.oecd.org/education/education-at-a-glance/EAG2019_CN_FIN.pdf

2/3 of applicants get rejected.

And for the 1/3 that do get selected, certain fields of study (like fine arts and journalism) have a very limited number of seats, and once they're full, that's it. If you don't get selected as one of the lucky few deemed to have "promise" in those selective fields, you get to choose between business and STEM for the most part. (or withdraw and pursue vocational training)
 
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ThatRobGuy

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My major was computer science also.

Frankly, I think this is a problem that could be easily solved by making college free across the board.
Ringo

But how to you feasibly do that without over-spending a lot of money on frivolous degrees that have no practical chance of paying off?

There has to be limits. Literally all 180 million adults can't all sign up simultaneously for Dance Theory degrees and expect them to be 100% paid for by someone else.

That simply wouldn't work (regardless of how high you make the tax rates), and would leave society under-prepared in terms of the skills needed for the next generation of society to work.

Like I said, I'm open to the idea of tuition-free college, provided we implement the same pragmatic safeguards that Finland and Sweden have.
 
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Ringo84

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But how to you feasibly do that without over-spending a lot of money on frivolous degrees that have no practical chance of paying off?

There has to be limits. Literally all 180 million adults can't all sign up simultaneously for Dance Theory degrees and expect them to be 100% paid for by someone else.

That simply wouldn't work (regardless of how high you make the tax rates), and would leave society under-prepared in terms of the skills needed for the next generation of society to work.

Like I said, I'm open to the idea of tuition-free college, provided we implement the same pragmatic safeguards that Finland and Sweden have.

That's still framing college in terms of "marketability" rather than actually trying to learn something, and I think it's the wrong frame. College being 100% free doesn't mean that everyone will take rumba classes or whatever; I'd bet that people who previously couldn't afford college tuition would go to college to learn - maybe for job skills, maybe just for the fun of learning.

I think that's what higher ed should be: learning for the sake of learning rather than finding the most "marketable" degree.
Ringo
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I see that our conservative friends are still waiting for fox news, breitbart and oan to tell them why this is bad.

I'm waiting for the source of all this money. :scratch:
 
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OldWiseGuy

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My major was computer science also.

Frankly, I think this is a problem that could be easily solved by making college free across the board.
Ringo

I don't think those professors would be too happy about working for nothing.
 
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cow451

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I don't think those professors would be too happy about working for nothing.
Professor Straw man will be lecturing in the Breitbart Theatre tonight at 8:00 pm ......
 
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*Starlight*

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It's good to see studies that support basic income, hopefully they will make the idea more popular too. I think that, if basic income is feasible (I don't know enough about economy to know if it can be done on a large scale), then it really should be implemented, because it would improve people's lives in so many different ways.

If basic income gets successfully implemented on the scale of entire countries, then a system without it will be seen as barbaric, with the poverty and stress it causes.
 
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rambot

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You mean in terms of policy? Or something else?

In terms of policy, the Scandinavian countries that offer tuition-free college have very rigorous entrance requirements to even get in.

https://www.oecd.org/education/education-at-a-glance/EAG2019_CN_FIN.pdf

2/3 of applicants get rejected.

And for the 1/3 that do get selected, certain fields of study (like fine arts and journalism) have a very limited number of seats, and once they're full, that's it. If you don't get selected as one of the lucky few deemed to have "promise" in those selective fields, you get to choose between business and STEM for the most part. (or withdraw and pursue vocational training)
It's hard for the universities to make money if they do that though.
And, much like every wonderful thing that exists in America, money needs to be made by those universities. So get as MANY people in as they can.

That said, I am absolutely in favour of free uni for students. But with that said, I think (as you lay out) there is a certain level of "limitation" that should be given.

And I do NOT think that higher education should be funded or even encouraged (necessarily) past high school. I see a lot of sense in limiting the number of candidates in certain programs.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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It's good to see studies that support basic income, hopefully they will make the idea more popular too. I think that, if basic income is feasible (I don't know enough about economy to know if it can be done on a large scale), then it really should be implemented, because it would improve people's lives in so many different ways.

If basic income gets successfully implemented on the scale of entire countries, then a system without it will be seen as barbaric, with the poverty and stress it causes.

It can be implemented...However, the things countries need to watch out for are certain tipping points with regards to
- inflation,
- the consumer pricing index for certain goods and services

Just as a simple example, if you look at the aspect of housing/rent (one of the largest expenditures for most Americans). Landlords tend to price their units in such a way that they charge the most they possibly can, and still keep all of the units full without too many vacancies.

So pretend I have a block of apartments, and I'm currently charging $900/month for them (because that's what the market with bear...if I take it up to $1000, too many people can't afford it anymore or don't feel the apartments are worth that much, and I end up with empty units that I'm losing money on). If everyone gets a check in the mail for $500/month...I could easily jack that price up because now I know more people can, and would be willing to pay more for it now that they have extra money in their pocket.

However, the renter wouldn't really be much better off in that scenario...

As a person with a $1800/month net income (paying $900/month for rent), isn't really better off than a person with a $1800/month + $500 UBI (paying $1400/month for rent).

The only way to avert that side-effect would be to have rent control policies in place, but those have a history of creating an entirely different set of issues.

The top cities in the country that implement those policies happen to share a huge amount of overlap with the cities that A) were on the top 10 homelessness rate list, and B) cities that have had their homelessness problem dramatically increase over the past 20 years.


I would say a UBI is doable, but only if the area that's implementing it doesn't have the issue of housing shortages. ...you can't really do UBI without rent control, and rent control tends to exacerbate the issue of housing shortages in areas that are dealing with that problem.

If you have an area that currently has a big housing surplus (and there are landlords desperately trying to fill units at a price where they're not going to lose money on it), then a UBI would probably work out. However, in an area where there are literally waiting lists to be able to get an apartment, a $500 UBI check every month equates to an instant increase in rent prices because from a landlords perspective "I have thousands of people dying to get an apartment in this area, and I know they're all getting and extra $500 a month now, so I'm going to raise rent prices accordingly"
 
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It can be implemented...However, the things countries need to watch out for are certain tipping points with regards to
- inflation,
- the consumer pricing index for certain goods and services

Just as a simple example, if you look at the aspect of housing/rent (one of the largest expenditures for most Americans). Landlords tend to price their units in such a way that they charge the most they possibly can, and still keep all of the units full without too many vacancies.

So pretend I have a block of apartments, and I'm currently charging $900/month for them (because that's what the market with bear...if I take it up to $1000, too many people can't afford it anymore or don't feel the apartments are worth that much, and I end up with empty units that I'm losing money on). If everyone gets a check in the mail for $500/month...I could easily jack that price up because now I know more people can, and would be willing to pay more for it now that they have extra money in their pocket.

However, the renter wouldn't really be much better off in that scenario...

As a person with a $1800/month net income (paying $900/month for rent), isn't really better off than a person with a $1800/month + $500 UBI (paying $1400/month for rent).

The only way to avert that side-effect would be to have rent control policies in place, but those have a history of creating an entirely different set of issues.

The top cities in the country that implement those policies happen to share a huge amount of overlap with the cities that A) were on the top 10 homelessness rate list, and B) cities that have had their homelessness problem dramatically increase over the past 20 years.


I would say a UBI is doable, but only if the area that's implementing it doesn't have the issue of housing shortages. ...you can't really do UBI without rent control, and rent control tends to exacerbate the issue of housing shortages in areas that are dealing with that problem.

If you have an area that currently has a big housing surplus (and there are landlords desperately trying to fill units at a price where they're not going to lose money on it), then a UBI would probably work out. However, in an area where there are literally waiting lists to be able to get an apartment, a $500 UBI check every month equates to an instant increase in rent prices because from a landlords perspective "I have thousands of people dying to get an apartment in this area, and I know they're all getting and extra $500 a month now, so I'm going to raise rent prices accordingly"

You're right, that does seem to be an issue to watch out for when implementing basic income. However, I think it's also a problem even without basic income.

Let's say that the economy improves and people start earning more money. Wouldn't landlords in this case also start charging more for apartments, since people can afford to pay more? Seems like this kind of system will keep poor people poor no matter where they get additional money from, either from basic income or increased earnings.
 
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durangodawood

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You're right, that does seem to be an issue to watch out for when implementing basic income. However, I think it's also a problem even without basic income.

Let's say that the economy improves and people start earning more money. Wouldn't landlords in this case also start charging more for apartments, since people can afford to pay more? Seems like this kind of system will keep poor people poor no matter where they get additional money from, either from basic income or increased earnings.
Yes., if the supply of apartments doesnt grow. Medium and high density development is very tightly regulated generally.
 
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cow451

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I'd argue that the covid-19 stimulus payments are proof that UBI payments can be done relatively easily and effectively.
Ringo
I have wondered about this myself. The vast majority of that money goes into the local economies
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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There has to be limits. Literally all 180 million adults can't all sign up simultaneously for Dance Theory degrees and expect them to be 100% paid for by someone else.

In practice the universities themselves will limit numbers - they won't be able to find space for 180 million dance theory students. So there are 200 places for Medicine for first years, and 1,000 applicants. The universities take the top 200 based on academic results, interviews, etc. The remaining 800 apply for something else.

Back when I went to university, you had a pretty good idea of what course at which university you could get into based on your high school results and the scores needed from the previous years. You listed choices from 1-5 (at least I think it was five), and when you got your test results, you would be automatically "applied" for the first choice, then if you didn't get that, the second choice, and so on.

The number of places was fixed by the uni, the score needed was dynamic and a result of the number of people trying to get in for that year. So if Medicine was a high demand course, the score would be higher than, say Marketing.
 
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iluvatar5150

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In practice the universities themselves will limit numbers - they won't be able to find space for 180 million dance theory students. So there are 200 places for Medicine for first years, and 1,000 applicants. The universities take the top 200 based on academic results, interviews, etc. The remaining 800 apply for something else.

If there's enough demand, or enough demand can be manufactured, then the universities will expand and/or new universities will open up.

I work in audio productions and the number of schools that have added or expanded recording studio facilities in the last ~20 years is nuts. Demand was basically manufactured with sexy photos of world-class studios built with tuition money. There's no way the industry can support the number of grads these schools turn out.
 
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Aldebaran

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On billionaires, yep.
Ringo

Billionaires. The very people who can afford to raise the prices on their products so that it's the middle class consumers who end up paying those taxes.
 
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Pommer

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Billionaires. The very people who can afford to raise the prices on their products so that it's the middle class consumers who end up paying those taxes.
Oh! We shouldn’t rile up our betters!
Pfft.
 
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Aldebaran

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Oh! We shouldn’t rile up our betters!
Pfft.

Nope! Just go ahead and pay those taxes they pass onto you after being in favor of them paying the taxes.
 
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rambot

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The Finnish Basic Income Experiment -- two years, 2,000 random persons, a monthly tax-exempt basic income of 560 euros / 667 USD -- yielded rather similar results:
small employment effects, but definitely did no make people more averse to accept paid employment, significantly improved economic and mental security and well-being -- that elusive pursuit of happiness.

That seems to be universal: no one, absolutely no one, wants to revel in poverty and misery.

But also huge differences to begin with: Finland is not a country that leaves its citizens and residents behind, with or without UBI:
Finland crowned world's happiest country for third year running

Finnish taxpayers are already paying for themselves and for their neighbours, too, a lot of well-being and first class services, some universal, some need-based, a lot of which are not called UBI but which do serve the same purpose: universal monthly child benefits for every child, universal health care, universal tuition free education, universal parental benefits, universal student benefits, universal unemployment allowances, universal pensions, housing benefits, sickness allowances, disability allowances, social assistance, survivor/orphan benefits...
While I think this is wonderful, it's becoming increasingly clear that some Americans seem to feel the need to require that some of their countrymen live in abject poverty with little hope of escape.
 
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rambot

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Nope! Just go ahead and pay those taxes they pass onto you after being in favor of them paying the taxes.
Oh yeah? So if you were to tax Bezos on his personal income at, say 30%, pray how would Jeff Bezos, the individual, cause us common folk to pay more taxes?
 
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