Stephen Hawking's Universe

[JohnR7]

John smites them with ALS.

This reminds me of a story about John the Beloved, back when he was refered to as one of the sons of thunder.

Luke 9:54-56
And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? [55] But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. [56] For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Our objective it to see people saved, healed, delivered and set free. Why would we want to smite anyone with anything?

Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

 

[Philip]

And this still sheds absolutely no light on what "justifying" oneself or God means: Praise? Worship? Repentance?

Smells like a translation error to me.

The Hebrew word is tsâdaq.

Job was claiming that he was righteous, and that God was in the wrong for for persecuting him.

Job 30:19-21 (RSVA)
19 God has cast me into the mire, and I have become like dust and ashes. 20 I cry to thee and thou dost not answer me; I stand, and thou dost not heed me. 21 Thou hast turned cruel to me; with the might of thy hand thou dost persecute me.

"Claiming to be just" might be a better translation than "justifying himself"

 

[JohnR7]

And this still sheds absolutely no light on what "justifying" oneself or God means: Praise? Worship? Repentance?

Wow Nathan, I thought you were a christian at one time and you do not know anything about justification? Crosswalk.com has dictionarys and a lot of other good resources that can help you to do a study on this.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/

Here is something I copied out of Eastman's dictionary:

JUSTIFICATION a forensic term, opposed to condemnation. As regards its nature, it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands. In addition to the pardon (q.v.) of sin, justification declares that all the claims of the law are satisfied in respect of the justified. It is the act of a judge and not of a sovereign. The law is not relaxed or set aside, but is declared to be fulfilled in the strictest sense; and so the person justified is declared to be entitled to all the advantages and rewards arising from perfect obedience to the law (Romans 5:1-10).
It proceeds on the imputing or crediting to the believer by God himself of the perfect righteousness, active and passive, of his Representative and Surety, Jesus Christ (Romans 10:3-9). Justification is not the forgiveness of a man without righteousness, but a declaration that he possesses a righteousness which perfectly and for ever satisfies the law, namely, Christ's righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21; Romans 4:6-8).
The sole condition on which this righteousness is imputed or credited to the believer is faith in or on the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith is called a “condition,” not because it possesses any merit, but only because it is the instrument, the only instrument by which the soul appropriates or apprehends Christ and his righteousness (Romans 1:17; Romans 3:25-26; Romans 4:20, 22; Phil. 3:8-11; Galatians 2:16).
The act of faith which thus secures our justification secures also at the same time our sanctification (q.v.); and thus the doctrine of justification by faith does not lead to licentiousness (Romans 6:2-7). Good works, while not the ground, are the certain consequence of justification (Romans 6:14; Romans 7:6).

 

[Nathan Poe]

The Hebrew word is tsâdaq.

Job was claiming that he was righteous, and that God was in the wrong for for persecuting him.

Job 30:19-21 (RSVA)
19 God has cast me into the mire, and I have become like dust and ashes. 20 I cry to thee and thou dost not answer me; I stand, and thou dost not heed me. Thou hast turned cruel to me; with the might of thy hand thou dost persecute me.

Finally! A straight answer! Thanks Philip! I'd be older than Methuselah waiting for John to give me this.

So Job felt that he was being unfairly put through the wringer by God. But the whole point of Satan choosing Job for this treatment was that he was such a fine upstanding citizen to begin with:

Job 1:6-12

[6]Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
[7] And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. [8] And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? [9] Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? [10] Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. [11] But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. [12] And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job was ruined for no other reason than to settle a bet between God and Satan. By human standards, that does seem grossly unfair.

Ah, but there's the rub: God does not hold Himself to human standards, does He? No. He smites who He wants, when He wants, for any (or no) reason He wants. And it doesn't matter if you're a sinner or saint, God will have his way with you if he sees fit.
(It should be noted that Job's "justifying" himself didn't come until long after God allowed Satan to do all this to him. )

Living a perfect life is no protection from misfortune (indeed, in Job's case, it was the cause of his misfortune). And that takes John's whole argument about Stephed Hawking "bringing ALS upon himself for not glorifying God," and tosses it on the trash heap...

...Where it belongs.

 

[JohnR7]

Is it acceptable to disagree with them?

You can if you want. He does everything he can to help people to understand the word of God. But he does not have much patience for scoffers and skeptics. He answers my Bible questions all the time. I search diligently day and night to find something that he has said that does not line up with Bible. But I can not find much.

Acts 17:11
These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

 

[Nathan Poe]

JUSTIFICATION a forensic term, opposed to condemnation. As regards its nature, it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands. In addition to the pardon (q.v.) of sin, justification declares that all the claims of the law are satisfied in respect of the justified. It is the act of a judge and not of a sovereign. The law is not relaxed or set aside, but is declared to be fulfilled in the strictest sense; and so the person justified is declared to be entitled to all the advantages and rewards arising from perfect obedience to the law (Romans 5:1-10).

Ah, similar to the legal term, as in "justifiable homicide" (self-defense, for example). I see that now.

But it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the context. Job was not strictly trying to "Justify" himself, since he truly hadn't done anything to deserve what had happened to him. And to justify God?

The term is more properly used to describe a person's actions, not the person itself.

P.S. Isn't it interesting how I was able to understand this without any help from the Holy Spirit? There goes another of your theories out the window...

 

[JohnR7]

This is a vastly different statement than suggesting that Hawkings' specific disease is a specific punishment for not honoring God.

I asked that question:

The question then is, did he use what God gave him to honor or glorify God or not?

We know that lepersy is a type of sin. We also believe that cancer today is a type of sin. But no one suggests that a individual has lepersy or cancer because of personal sin. But we know that just as cancer and lepersy eats away at a person, so does sin.

There were some things I pointed out about what is know of the physical disease of ALS and I showed how this can help us to understand spiritual things. For example: Sclerosis: I equated to a hardening of the attitude. Or the idea that ALS is a disease where the muscles go without nurishment. In a spiritual sense we daily receive nurishment from God. He is the bread of life. He gives strength to our body. If we do not receive our daily bread, then we are going to be weak in a spiritual way.

The Physical then becomes what they call a shaddow and a type for what is going on in the spiritual realm.

 

[JohnR7]

P.S. Isn't it interesting how I was able to understand this without any help from the Holy Spirit? There goes another of your theories out the window...

It looks to me like when God saw that you really wanted to understand something about the Bible, He was quick to send Philip who was used by God to explain it to you.

Interestingly enough it sort of reminds me of a Bible story about a man named Philip who helped someone to understand a passage in the Bible.

Acts 8:30-31
So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" [31] And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.

 

[Cantuar]

We know that lepersy is a type of sin. We also believe that cancer today is a type of sin.

Speak for yourself. Leprosy is a bacterial infection due to Mycobacterium leprae, and cancer is a constellation of diseases with different causes, including infectious viruses in some cases.

 

[JohnR7]

Speak for yourself. Leprosy is a bacterial infection due to Mycobacterium leprae, and cancer is a constellation of diseases with different causes, including infectious viruses in some cases.

So you do not understand anything about shadows and types?

 

[Nathan Poe]

I asked that question:



We know that lepersy is a type of sin. We also believe that cancer today is a type of sin. But no one suggests that a individual has lepersy or cancer because of personal sin. But we know that just as cancer and lepersy eats away at a person, so does sin.

We know no such thing.
Leprosy is a disease. While it has carried a severe social stigma throughout history, calling it a sin does not make it one.

From MSN Encarta:

Leprosy or Hansen's Disease, chronic infectious disease caused by the bacterium Mycobacterium leprae. Leprosy can be treated effectively with several drugs, but if left untreated, the disease can result in severe disfigurement, especially of the feet, hands, and face. It is rarely fatal.
Leprosy has long been one of the most feared diseases worldwide. The stigma attached to leprosy has often caused those who contracted the disease to be shunned by family, friends, and society. For example, in Europe during the Middle Ages (5th century to 15th century), people with leprosy were declared dead and were banished after witnessing their own funeral and symbolic burial. Confined to a leprosarium or forced to wander and beg to survive, these outcasts were required to warn others of their presence with a bell or clapper.
Although leprosy was once widespread throughout the world, today it is primarily a tropical disease. More than 95 percent of leprosy cases occur in just 11 nations, and India and Brazil have the largest numbers of cases. Due to effective treatment and leprosy eradication programs, the prevalence of the disease has declined dramatically in recent years. According to the World Health Organization (WHO), in 1985 there were 5.4 million registered cases of leprosy and an estimated 10 to 12 million total cases worldwide. By 2000, there were only 680,000 registered cases and an estimated 1.6 million total cases of leprosy worldwide. Fewer than 7,000 registered cases of leprosy currently exist in the United States. Each year some 300 new cases of leprosy are identified in the United States. The vast majority of these patients are immigrants who acquired the disease in their home countries.

And I don't know who "we" are, but "we" do not believe that cancer is a sin.

Also from MSN Encarta

Cancer (medicine), any of more than 100 diseases characterized by excessive, uncontrolled growth of abnormal cells, which invade and destroy other tissues. Cancer develops in almost any organ or tissue of the body, but certain types of cancer are more lethal than others. Cancer is the leading cause of death in Canada and second only to heart disease in the United States. Each year, more than 1.2 million Americans and 132,000 Canadians are diagnosed with cancer, and more than 1,700 people die from cancer each day in the United States and Canada. For reasons not well understood, cancer rates vary by gender, race, and geographic region. For instance, more males have cancer than females, and African Americans are more likely to develop cancer than persons of any other racial and ethnic group in North America. Cancer rates also vary globally—residents of the United States, for example, are nearly three times as likely to develop cancer than are residents of Egypt.
Although people of all ages develop cancer, most types are more common in people over the age of 50. Cancer usually develops gradually over many years, the result of a complex mix of environmental, nutritional, behavioral, and hereditary factors. Scientists do not completely understand the causes of cancer, but they know that certain lifestyle choices can dramatically reduce the risk of developing most types of cancer. Not smoking, eating a healthy diet, and exercising moderately for at least 30 minutes each day reduce cancer risk by more than 60 percent.
Just 50 years ago a cancer diagnosis carried little hope for survival because doctors understood little about the disease and how to control it. Today 60 percent of all Americans diagnosed with cancer live longer than five years. While it is difficult to claim that a cancer patient is disease free, long-term survival significantly improves if the patient survives five years. The National Cancer Institute of the United States (NCI) estimates that as many as 8.4 million Americans are living with cancer or have been cured of the disease thanks largely to advances in detecting cancers earlier. The sooner cancer is found and treated, the better a patient’s chance for survival. In addition, advances in the fundamental understanding of how cancer develops have reduced deaths caused by certain cancers and hold promise for new and better treatments.

There were some things I pointed out about what is know of the physical disease of ALS and I showed how this can help us to understand spiritual things. For example: Sclerosis: I equated to a hardening of the attitude. Or the idea that ALS is a disease where the muscles go without nurishment. In a spiritual sense we daily receive nurishment from God. He is the bread of life. He gives strength to our body. If we do not receive our daily bread, then we are going to be weak in a spiritual way.

If all you intended was a parable, then why bring of the question of whether Stephen Hawking glorified God or not, knowing and admitting the implications?

The Physical then becomes what they call a shaddow and a type for what is going on in the spiritual realm.

But shadows can be deceiving; they rarely show us the whole truth. So your other implication about judging a person's heart based on their physical condition was way off-base.

 

[JohnR7]

And I don't know who "we" are, but "we" do not believe that cancer is a sin

So you do not understand shadows and type then? How can you say you do not believe in the Bible. If you do not understand how to interpret the Bible? It would seem that you don't know what you do not believe in.

I found something on the web, maybe it will help to explain it to you.

Types, Antitypes, and Shadows, are Absolutely
Indespensable for proper Scriptural Interpretation. http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/type.htm

 

[Nathan Poe]

So you do not understand shadows and type then? How can you say you do not believe in the Bible. If you do not understand how to interpret the Bible? It would seem that you don't know what you do not believe in.

Yes John, I used to be a Christian, and I do not need your judgement as to what kind of Christian I used to be. Suffice it to say that I was not the kind who thought that God would allow a man to be afflicted with ALS because that man didn't stroke His ego enough.

As for "types and shadows," I am well aware of foreshadowing, and its uses in sacred and secular literature, and I submit that you are misapplying it.

I found something on the web, maybe it will help to explain it to you.

Interesting definitions, but it still doesn't clarify your point.
From the site:

"A 'Type' is: A Biblical person, thing, action, event, ceremony, structure, furniture, color, or number, that prefigures an 'antitype' of the same in the New Testament."

The key word here is Biblical. "Type" is meant to compare something in the Bible (usually in the Old Testament) with something (the antitype) in the New Testament.

It's a tool meant for better understanding the Bible, and handy for reconciling the Old and New Testaments. You've been applying it outside the Bible with disasterous results.

Cancer is a disease, not a Biblical curse. Christ taught that misfortune will befall everybody regardless of their faith or lack thereof. Remember:

[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;[45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. --Matthew 5:4-45

 

[JohnR7]

Yes John, I used to be a Christian, and I do not need your judgement as to what kind of Christian I used to be. Suffice it to say that I was not the kind who thought that God would allow a man to be afflicted with ALS because that man didn't stroke His ego enough.

Then you would know that God has no ego. That those who are born again and transformed into the image of Jesus do not have ego or pride. These are human qualities that are a part of fallen human nature and do not reflect God or the new creation we become in Christ. As in blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

As for "types and shadows," I am well aware of foreshadowing, and its uses in sacred and secular literature, and I submit that you are misapplying it.Interesting definitions, but it still doesn't clarify your point.
From the site:

I would think if that is what you do for a living, then you would know the Bible as literature and you would know and understand the shadows and types in the Bible.

Before people even can get saved, they tell them that sin is a condition that eats away on the inside of them like a cancer. That is why we need the great physician. He is the only one that has the cure. Through Jesus we can be cleansed of any sin, healed of any sickness. To be saved means to be healed. Set free, redeemed, delivered. So that sin and sickness no longer have any power over us. We are set free.

Like I said, the women who did the most work on this is Hannah Hurnard who wrote "Hinds Feet on High Places". She shows how things manifest in the physical realm, to show us what is going on in the spiritual realm. Most of what she wrote on this subject in in the main stream of Christianity. Although if you accept all of what she wrote, then she is a universalist and believes that everyone will be saved. But even die hard calvanists believe in the shaddows and the types in the Bible and that a disease like cancer or lepersy is a type and a example of sin and how it eats away at the body in a attempt to destroy it. The difference is that Hurnard attempts to show how this spread into the animal kingdom and all of creation. This she feels is why bee's sting, and animals devour one another. Because of man's fallen condition being reflected in natural and the physical world around us.

Of course the most famous allegory is "piligrams progress" and the most die hard sola scripture people accept this book. I could go on. I use to read a lot of calvan miller, who wrote "The Singer". CS Lewis wrote in the allegory style, but I never read any of his work. There are others. I am sure you would know better than me, sense this is what you do for a living. So you must know about all of them. Are they on your reading list that you hand out to people? Or don't you put the christian books on your reading list?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Then you would know that God has no ego. That those who are born again and transformed into the image of Jesus do not have ego or pride. These are human qualities that are a part of fallen human nature and do not reflect God or the new creation we become in Christ. As in blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

I want to believe that, really I do, but I've seen too many "Christians" who are nothing but ego and pride. They've got the whole "I've got the Holy Spirit and you don't; nyah nyah nyah!" thing happening.

As for God himself, it's hard to beleive that He doesn't have an ego to bruise, since he's such a capricious and jealous thing...

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [5] Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; --Exodus 20:4-5

But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: [14] For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: --Exodus 34:13-14

For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. -- Deutoronomy 4:24

Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, --Deutoronomy 5:9

Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; [15] (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. -- Deutornomy 6:15-16

And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: [20] The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven. -- Deutoronomy 29:19-20

And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. -- Joshua 24:19

I would think if that is what you do for a living, then you would know the Bible as literature and you would know and understand the shadows and types in the Bible.

I've never met a Christian who wanted to discuss the Bible as literature. They wan't to discuss it as the Word of God. They believe that "literature" implies "fiction."

As literature, the Bible is a pretty well-written anthology sharing a common theme.

Before people even can get saved, they tell them that sin is a condition that eats away on the inside of them like a cancer. That is why we need the great physician. He is the only one that has the cure. Through Jesus we can be cleansed of any sin, healed of any sickness. To be saved means to be healed. Set free, redeemed, delivered. So that sin and sickness no longer have any power over us. We are set free.

And here we find the problem; You're confusing a simile, a metaphor, and reality.

Had you began with "sin is like a cancer, eating away at the spirit as cancer eats away the body," you would have been using a brilliant simile which would perfectly explain the nature of sin and no doubt bring people closer to God.

But you said that "Cancer is a sin," which, without the like, could be construed as a metaphor, which still works, so long as people understand you're speaking metaphorically.

Clearly you are not. Now you say, "sin and sickness no longer have any power over us." You really do expect people to believe that cancer is a physical manefestation of a sinful nature.

The Puritans believed that; I go into some detail into it when I teach The Scarlet Letter. Aside from that, I had thought that the superstition that disease was punishment from God went out in the middle ages.

There is a thing called the "germ theory."

Like I said, the women who did the most work on this is Hannah Hurnard who wrote "Hinds Feet on High Places". She shows how things manifest in the physical realm, to show us what is going on in the spiritual realm. Most of what she wrote on this subject in in the main stream of Christianity. Although if you accept all of what she wrote, then she is a universalist and believes that everyone will be saved. But even die hard calvanists believe in the shaddows and the types in the Bible and that a disease like cancer or lepersy is a type and a example of sin and how it eats away at the body in a attempt to destroy it. The difference is that Hurnard attempts to show how this spread into the animal kingdom and all of creation. This she feels is why bee's sting, and animals devour one another. Because of man's fallen condition being reflected in natural and the physical world around us.

Sounds like she too is misinterpreting "shadows and types" by applying them outside the literature. Nevertheless, I'll see if I can find her in my bookstore.

Of course the most famous allegory is "piligrams progress" and the most die hard sola scripture people accept this book. I could go on. I use to read a lot of calvan miller, who wrote "The Singer". CS Lewis wrote in the allegory style, but I never read any of his work. There are others. I am sure you would know better than me, sense this is what you do for a living. So you must know about all of them. Are they on your reading list that you hand out to people? Or don't you put the christian books on your reading list?

Since I work in a Christian school (surprise!), I can focus on my field of expertise, which is American Literature, pre-Civil War. I leave the Christian authors for the Religion teachers.

And I will recommend Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason, Dan Barker's Losing Faith in Faith, and George Smith's Atheism: The Case Against God for you. Now we both have some summer reading.

 

[Siliconaut]

@John:

Do you know what Blasphemy against the Holy Spirirt is? I can make it simple for you. If your against the people who represent God, then your against God. Because it is God that is at work in them.

Do you feel that your justified but that God is not justified? We just had a discussion on Job where he came to see that God is justified in all that He does. We should not seek to justify ourself, rather we need to come to see that God is justified.

John, that is the ultimate bigotry! Attacking your puny guru (or his chosen, most-favored-of-all-disciples disciple John) means attacking god? What self-respecting deity would stoop to being affiliated with a self-serving cult leader and his fledgling secticians? Do you take it as evidence that - so far - your cult hasn't been struck by lightning?

All I can do is to have to pity for your delusions of grandeur. By all means, have your Bhagwan continue bamboozling you, sending people to their death by withholding medical treatment, but please, please stop pretending to have anything to do with what the bible tells of Jesus Christ's teachings.

This bigotry really makes my head ache... :/

 

[Philip]

JUSTIFICATION a forensic term, opposed to condemnation. As regards its nature, it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands. In addition to the pardon (q.v.) of sin, justification declares that all the claims of the law are satisfied in respect of the justified. It is the act of a judge and not of a sovereign. The law is not relaxed or set aside, but is declared to be fulfilled in the strictest sense; and so the person justified is declared to be entitled to all the advantages and rewards arising from perfect obedience to the law.

This is a Western concept of Justification that does not agree with the Eastern understanding.

Job was ruined for no other reason than to settle a bet between God and Satan. By human standards, that does seem grossly unfair.

Many Christians understand Job to be a parable and not actual history.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Many Christians understand Job to be a parable and not actual history.

Ooooo.... Don't let John hear you say that.

In any case, it doesn't affect the validity of my point. Parable or history, bad things happen to good people, regardless of whether they glorify God or not.

 

[JohnR7]

In any case, it doesn't affect the validity of my point. Parable or history, bad things happen to good people, regardless of whether they glorify God or not.

Actually, no one is good, only God is good.

Luke 18:19
So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good?
No one is good but One, that is, God.

 

[JohnR7]

Since I work in a Christian school (surprise!)

Do you tell them your not a christian, or do you just save that for us?