Stephen Hawking's Universe

[MartinM]

On this forum all that it means to call someone a troll, is that you do not agree with what they are saying.

There's plenty of people here I disagree with, but I don't call all of them trolls. Only the...well, the trollish ones.

 

[JohnR7]

John, your claim seems to be that Hawkings disease is caused directly by God because Hawking did not honor God enough.

God is not the cause of sickness. If that were the case then Jesus would have gone around making people sick, not healing them. Jesus clearly teaches that a house divided against itself, can not stand.

Is God divided against Himself? Does He give health to some people and sickness to others? Satan is the cause of sickness. Or people bring it on themselves.

It looks like people are just not ready for this yet. It does not surprise me I guess. Usually it takes about three years for people to grasp this whole concept from what I have seen.

At least I have learned I need to work on the lesson plan and try to take people there in stages, and don't give them something they just are not ready to accept yet.

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

 

[JohnR7]

There's plenty of people here I disagree with, but I don't call all of them trolls. Only the...well, the trollish ones.

By that you mean what? Only the ones who really give you God's truth instead of a pack of lies?

 

[lucaspa]

Did I get it in the wrong order, were you the first batter up? Sorry about that. You now have five min. to bring to a conclusion your arguement.

Let's try the argument you ignored:

JohnR7

I had a friend at church who recently died from this disease. First you see in the definition that it means to to without nurishment. That is the conditon to many people are in who go without God as a part of their life. They do not allow God to nurish them with His goodness. His life, His health, His healing, His Wisdom, Knowledge and Understanding.

So you are saying your friend, in your church, was without God as part of his life? You have to be. After all, he had ALS and this is supposed to reflect his inner self.

So, a member of Angley's church, where you can tell you are among "the children of God" (to use your phrase) because 1) everyone is in health and 2) the minister performs miracle healings.

So, John, how did your friend get sick in the first place? And, when he was sick, why did Angley fail to heal him?

If a "child of God" can die of ALS in Angley's church, then you cannot claim that ALS in Hawking is due to Hawking's inner character and denial of God, can you? Well, YOU can. After all, you did.

But any thinking Christian wouldn't.

 

[Just An Atheist]

OK, Wilikers!

He made a mistake guys. What's more, I think he knows it, but after that starting in-depth explanation, and having come all this way, he won't admit it. It was just, as you said, a hypothesis that was incorrect. We don't need to corner him and shove it in his face. I think that he knows its wrong too, but it's just too late to back down. I think I'm going to bed now. TTYL Jesus loves you!

I disagree. I have no problem with someone who admits their mistake when shown. However if someone sticks with a bogus point, especially one that seems rooted in hatred, they deserve to have it shoved in their face.

For example a very devout friend of mine had a still birth. Should I conclude that God hates Christians? If I posted something like that everyone would rightly jump all over me. If I stuck with the point how would you think of me? What would you say to me?

 

[Nathan Poe]

You just don't get it do you. Your only judging your own heart not mine. You are not even able to judge my heart.

Ah, your classic "I know you are but what am I?" response.

But John, you've given me the means to judge your heart at the start of this thread:

Proverbs 23:6-8
Do not eat the bread of a selfish man,
Or desire his delicacies;
[7] For as he thinks within himself, so he is.
He says to you, "Eat and drink!"
But his heart is not with you.
[8] You will vomit up the morsel you have eaten,
And waste your compliments.

I suggest here that the outward appearance is a reflection of the man. The thoughts, the intents, the charactor, the attitude.

If we also look at Matthew 7:15-23...

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Then your heart becomes all too easy to know.

 

[lucaspa]

For lurkers:

For those who want to study up more on just what an allegory is I would suggest Hannah Hurnard: "Hinds' Feet on High Places". Or any of her other books. I have read most of them. Although it was a while ago. I use to love to read Christian allegory books.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0842314296/103-0754354-0102239?vi=glance

The irony meter just pegged again. Having talked about allegory, you consistently fail to recognize Genesis 2 as allegory and instead portray a literal Adam and Eve (Dirt and Hearth).

For the lurkers, John's OP wasn't allegory. Instead, if was a way to discredit data and ideas John doesn't agree with. Since John by self-admission doesn't know enough of the physics to dispute Hawking's No Boundary Proposal, he has to find another way to get rid of it. The route he chose was to discredit Hawking the person, and to use his ALS to do so. John tried to link Hawking's ALS to his supposed denial of God and therefore to God punishing him for this denial.

What resulted was not an attack on Hawking, but a wholesale attack on Christianity and God.

1. We have a petty and vengeful god who not only punishes Hawking for his ideas, but does so by giving him ALS BEFORE he even has the idea!

2. This same petty god gives ALS to a devout churchgoer friend of John's. So either 1) this god arbitrarily hands out punishment, in which case it's not worth worshipping, 2) the congregation of which John is a member does not honor this petty god, or 3) the ministry is a fake because the healing minister didn't heal the member with ALS.

Everyone loses.

Here is a part of a review:

"Much Afraid's crippled feet represent an inability to walk successfully alone and reach higher places. Her twisted mouth represents the speaking of shameful, wrong, or cowardly things that don't befit a servant of the Lord... or perhaps an inability to speak her true heart. Her companions are called Sorrow & Suffering... but when they are revealed in true form, you will cry with understanding! All in all, you'll certainly adore this book if you read it, especially if you are troubled or just discovering God. I know I did."

And the tragedy is that John can't see himself in this description.

 

[JohnR7]

Ah, your classic "I know you are but what am I?" response.

Give it up guy, you have already spilled the beans and told us all about your heart. You can not go back and undo that now. All the money in the world can not buy back your words. Once we speak them, they can never be taken back again.

How much do you think the Dixie Chicks would have paid if they could have taken back what they said about President Bush?

 

[lucaspa]

Are you really wanting to open this up for discussion? Even under the law people can have divine health, how much more can we have divine health under grace. But not everyone has entered in, and not everyone is healed. But we do see a lot of miracles and healing, and we do capture them on video for others to see.

Yes, I want to open it up for discussion. I want to know why your fellow church member died of ALS. I want to know why he didn't have divine health under grace. Was he not entered in? And why didn't Angley heal this friend of yours? C'mon, a churchmember, and Angley didn't heal him of ALS? Why not? Was he unable to? Did he choose not to? If either, why?

 

[JohnR7]

Since John by self-admission doesn't know enough of the physics to dispute Hawking's No Boundary Proposal, he has to find another way to get rid of it. The route he chose was to discredit Hawking the person, and to use his ALS to do so. John tried to link Hawking's ALS to his supposed denial of God and therefore to God punishing him for this denial.

That is a supposition on your part with no proof and no evidence. But by all means, put your proof together, show us your evidence. In the mean time what I said stands: You just don't get it. You have your self up against something you can not figure out. So admit it.

Also your still avoiding the question as to why Hawking's is still alive 30 years after the doctors said he should have died. Can you even compute the odd's on that being possible?

One way or the other this conversation is a topic who's time has come. You not going to knock it down with a few quick cheap shots. So you better get to work and do your homework.

This has a lot less to do with "Hawking the person" then it does Hawking the figure head of science. He agreed to be put out on PBS, and that makes him a public figure and he is now open for discussion.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/html/home.html

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

 

[lucaspa]

lucaspa: John, your claim seems to be that Hawkings disease is caused directly by God because Hawking did not honor God enough.

God is not the cause of sickness. If that were the case then Jesus would have gone around making people sick, not healing them. Jesus clearly teaches that a house divided against itself, can not stand.

Is God divided against Himself? Does He give health to some people and sickness to others? Satan is the cause of sickness. Or people bring it on themselves.

OK. Now, if SATAN gave the disease to Hawking, and Satan is the enemy of God, that would mean that Hawking was doing God's work, right? So how do did you conclude that Hawking's ALS came from Hawking?

Now, what caused your friend's ALS? Satan or himself? If it was Satan, you mean Angley with the power of God wasn't strong enough to cure him? If himself, you mean you have people among the "children of God" who are not children of God?

This theory about sickness simply will not stand testing. No matter what your answer, something precious to you has to go: either God or the ministry you follow.

So why do you stick with this falsified theory instead of giving it up? I can see that it fits in with a mission to destroy Christianity, so maybe that is why you keep it.

 

[lucaspa]

What do you think is in my eye, a log or Einstein's gulf?

Matthew 7:3
And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?

A very, very large log.

 

[lucaspa]

I think you're a great defender of the faith, and this thing with Stephen Hawkings was an interesting theory, but I respectfully don't subscribe to it.

After showing the damage John's theory does to Christianity, how can you say that JohnR7 is a defender of the faith? Most of his theories end up attacking Christianity. Is that coincidence?

 

[lucaspa]

Larry Dossey is a medical doctor and a researcher who has spent years looking into the effect of prayer on illness. One of his more famous long term studies involved having religious groups pray for specific seriously ill individuals. What he found was that the individual being prayed for recovered significantly faster, had fewer complications reported less side effects, and were less likely to die.

Where is Dossey's study published? I can't find it in a PubMed search.

I know of studies on intercessory prayer, but none of them I am aware are by Dossey.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Give it up guy, you have already spilled the beans and told us all about your heart. You can not go back and undo that now. All the money in the world can not buy back your words. Once we speak them, they can never be taken back again.

How much do you think the Dixie Chicks would have paid if they could have taken back what they said about President Bush?

What are you babbling about and why do you refuse to answer the rest of my post?

 

[ByGrace]

Wow John, I usually would want to defend those in the faith but you stepped right into the mess this time. While I do not subscribe to the theories of Hawking, I am in doubt that God is sitting around handing out disease to those that dont praise him. Good Christians die every day. This is an ichy topic.

 

[lucaspa]

OK, Wilikers!

He made a mistake guys. What's more, I think he knows it, but after that starting in-depth explanation, and having come all this way, he won't admit it. It was just, as you said, a hypothesis that was incorrect. We don't need to corner him and shove it in his face. I think that he knows its wrong too, but it's just too late to back down. I think I'm going to bed now. TTYL Jesus loves you!

Considering the damage that ill-considered hypothesis does to Christianity, I submit that we do need to shove it in his face. Many of John's ideas would destroy Christianity IF we allowed them to be true.

1. John needs to exercise more care and pre-testing before he puts his ideas out in public or
2. He knows the effect of his ideas and is trying to destroy Christianity. In the latter case, we do need to "shove it in his face" to protect Christianity and so others don't take up the argument.

 

[JohnR7]

Yes, I want to open it up for discussion. I want to know why your fellow church member died of ALS. I want to know why he didn't have divine health under grace. Was he not entered in? And why didn't Angley heal this friend of yours? C'mon, a churchmember, and Angley didn't heal him of ALS? Why not? Was he unable to? Did he choose not to? If either, why?

Why? Why? Why? I should have qualifed that was my wife's church, the methodist church. Without getting into details I did join the methodist church, but I was going back and forth between my church and my wife's church. But I am no longer a part of the Methodist church.

So, why did my friend die? Because He did not go to the man of God to receive what God had for him. He went to the man of science, and science told him he was going to die. So he prepared himself and he let the disease run it's course.

What did Hawking's do? He decided that he was going to make the best use out of what time he had, and he is still alive 30 years later.

 

[JohnR7]

Considering the damage that ill-considered hypothesis does to Christianity, I submit that we do need to shove it in his face.

Then I will shove it right back into your face, if that is the degenerative attitude you want to have. Or we can have a open discussion about the topic and maybe despise yourself we may all learn something new.

 

[JohnR7]

Wow John, I usually would want to defend those in the faith but you stepped right into the mess this time.

Yep, the collage drop out takes on the Phd's.

While I do not subscribe to the theories of Hawking, I am in doubt that God is sitting around handing out disease to those that dont praise him. Good Christians die every day. This is an ichy topic.

I never said that God hands out disease. People either bring it on themselves or satan puts it on them. If you read the book of Job what does it say? Satan was the cause, but God allowed it.

It is time people take a good hard look at the Bible. I am not out to win converts. But it is time to take a look at what the Bible says. Here is a good place to start:

Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

I am open for any suggestion as to what people here thinks that this verse means or is refering to.

Luke 6:45b For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be justified,
and by your words you will be condemned."