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statuettes.... Error?!?

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Oblio

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Actually it is a symbol for the Uncreated Light (energies) of the Holy Trinity. It works better in 2 dimensions and is one of the reasons I prefer (from a secular standpoint) Icons over statues. It is not meant to be an 'object', but is rather a symbol of a Theological truth, that a Saint has acheived Theosis and is a partaker of the Divine nature.
 
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Asinner

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Friends, our Lord God and Saviour created the heavens and the earth, what need does he have in earthly things?

Worship is for man, not God. In Orthodoxy, we worship Him with all of our senses. Although we do not use statues to depict those who are with Christ, we do use icons, or windows into Heaven, to lift our minds from the earthly to the Heavenly. Icons actually prevent idolatry.:)

Love,
Christina
 
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thereselittleflower

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I don't know that big cross, with Jesus nailed to at the front of the Church not far from here, and many other strikes me as an Icon.

Yes, and? Is the image created to be a god itself? in other words, was the actual image, the object itself, made to be a god?

No . . it would be rediculous for you to assert otherwise. . .

That's a Graven Image.

No, a graven image is an object created to be a god itelf . .

Jesus is God. You do not make an image of God for that is forbodden.

To Old Testament Jews it was, however, God made an icon for us, a living icon . .Jesus. God revealed Himself. There is no prohibition of making images of Jesus.

Much different than decorations in the Temple. Nobody bowed, kissed, or prayed at the decorations feet.

Nobody bowed to the Ark?

Also, the whole "bowing" thing. It's not bowing it's genuflecting much different than bowing. Genuflecting for those who do not know is bending the knee to the floor or ground in worship.

You almost had it right . . I guess when people genuflect to Kings and Queens they are worshipping them?

.
 
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thereselittleflower

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I've already replied to your post about God ordering Moses and others to make carved images and God gives his reasons to why they should make them. Soloman made carved images on his own accord.

Solomon said in,1 Kings 5 v 5 "And, behold, I purpose to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God"

v 11+12. And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes (laws), and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father. God is concerned Solomon is making his own decisions about worship.

Solomon cried out to God, 8 V 27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?" v 35 "When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them:" v 36 "Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thyservants." Solomon asks God to forgive their sins if the confess his name in the building with Graven images.

and God replyed saying, 9 v 3 "And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built" v 4 + 5 "And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes (laws) and my judgments: Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever" However to those who make bargains with the Lord, like Solomon, the Lord makes conditions

God said, v 6 + 7 "But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes (laws) which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight;"

Notice what Solomon offered to God in Ch 8 v 35, he said, "if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name" CONFESS THY NAME, ONLY GOD'S NAME, not the name of another

WE ALL KNOW THAT SOLOMON EVENTUALLY SINNED AND CONFESSED THE NAMES OF OTHERS AFTER SOLOMON CRIED OUT TO GOD, BUT GOD KNEW SOLOMON WOULD SIN, SIMPLY BECAUSE SOLOMON BUILT THE TEMPLE UNDER HIS OWN PLANS. UNLIKE NOAH, MOSES AND OTHERS SOLOMON WAS WORKING ALONE.

thereselittlefower, does this answer your question? I wonder is there anyone doing a Solomon today without god's instructions?




Nope, not at all Tyndale . . for you are totally avoiding the whole point . .

Solomon put lots of images in the temple he built for God . .

And God responded how? By HALLOWING it.
1 Kings 9:1-3 And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he was pleased to do, That the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon. And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.​


And:
2Ch 7:11 Thus Solomon finished the house of the LORD, and the king's house: and all that came into Solomon's heart to make in the house of the LORD, and in his own house, he prosperously effected.
2Ch 7:12 And the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice.

2Ch 7:16 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.


2Ch 7:1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.

2Ch 7:2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD'S house.

Sounds like God approved of the house Solomon built, full of images! :)


.
 
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thereselittleflower

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In the Papal bull for Saint image worship it says the images aren't supposed to be worshipped, it's who they represent, but as I said to therese, lot's of their congregation don't practice this.

Come on Tyndale . . you haven't established a thing regarding this . . .

I have already discussed the judgemental nature of such a claim, and how invalid it is to judge based on appearances . . .

Why do you insist on usurping God's place as judge of th heart?

We have to understand that man is sinfull and very vulnerable in seeking clarity and proof of God's existence. In the Pagan history of statues and images they were invented because man's inner faith from God was eroding. That holy sparK which was within was gradually eroding and man in his foolish/sinnfull ways thought he could create something to enlighten the spirit of god.

Friends, our Lord God and Saviour created the heavens and the earth, what need does he have in earthly things?

Obviously He needed an earthly body . .

Obviously He chooses to use earthly things to convey spiritual graces . . water, bread and wine come to mind . ..

;)


.
 
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Tyndale

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Hello theselittleflower. You haven't got back to me about my post on Solomon's plea for god to dwell in the santuary he built. Solomon asked God to make his building Holy and cried out "if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin,"

God granted his prayer with one condition that Solomon and his generations would uphold God's law, confessing his name only.

Confess (yadah) means literally, to use.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Them shapes are everywhere. The bread at communion is shaped like a sundisk and held aloft like some deity. Why the need for ritual symbalism?
Tydnale, come now . . . you yourself know that Jesus Himself instituted ritual symbolism . . . at least from the Protestant perspective all it is is symbolism .. so let's go with the Protestant perspective for a momment . . .

The bread and wine . . .this is My Body, this is My Blood . .do this in remembrance of Me . . .

Obviously, Jesus saw such a need . . . ;)


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Tyndale

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Nope, not at all Tyndale . . for you are totally avoiding the whole point .


2Ch 7:12 And the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice.​



You're leaving the most crucial verses out. Your cutting and pasting the bible to suit Roman Dogma. Please open your eyes. Verse 13 + 14 continue with [13] If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;
[14] If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.


SEEK MY FACE, CONFESS MY NAME
 
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thereselittleflower

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Hello theselittleflower. You haven't got back to me about my post on Solomon's plea for god to dwell in the santuary he built. Solomon asked God to make his building Holy and cried out "if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin,"

God granted his prayer with one condition that Solomon and his generations would uphold God's law, confessing his name only.

Confess (yadah) means literally, to use.

Um . . . no . . God granted Solomon's prayer BEFORE that little discussion between God and Solomon . . :)

And either you are unintentionally or deliberately missing the point.

This thread is about images . .

Solomon's temple was full of images . . .

God's glory descended on this temple full of images . . .

God was well pleased with this temple full of images . . .

God hallowed this temple full of images . . .

God chose, HIMSELF, as a house of sacrifice, this temple full of images . . .


That is the point. :)


.
 
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Tyndale

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The bread and wine . . .this is My Body, this is My Blood . .do this in remembrance of Me . . .

Obviously, Jesus saw such a need . . . ;)
.

Aye, but don't turn it into a graven image of something in the sky.
 
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thereselittleflower

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You're leaving the most crucial verses out. Your cutting and pasting the bible to suit Roman Dogma. Please open your eyes. Verse 13 + 14 continue with [13] If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;
[14] If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.


SEEK MY FACE, CONFESS MY NAME
[/INDENT]

No Tyndale .. you are still missing the point . . you are putting the cart in front of the horse . .


Which came first?

The "if this then that"?

Or God's glory descending on this temple full of images . . .

God being well pleased with this temple full of images . . .

God hallowing this temple full of images . . .


God chosing, HIMSELF, as a house of sacrifice, this temple full of images . . .



You are putting the cart before the horse relying on what came after to justify what came first . . .


and still you refuse to deal with the essential issue . .. the use of IMAGES in this house of God.


.
 
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Tyndale

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Um . . . no . . God granted Solomon's prayer BEFORE that little discussion between God and Solomon . . :)

And either you are unintentionally or deliberately missing the point.

This thread is about images . .

Solomon's temple was full of images . . .

God's glory descended on this temple full of images . . .

God was well pleased with this temple full of images . . .

God hallowed this temple full of images . . .

God chose, HIMSELF, as a house of sacrifice, this temple full of images . . .


That is the point. :)


.

thereselittleflower. If you can't see the happenings between God and Solomon, where Solomon acted on his own accord, God warned him, Solomon continued and begged for God's inclusion, God granted it with a condition, solomon broke his promise.....I'm afraid I can't help you any further.

I hope you know that the bible is a story, it tells us about the bad things and the good things. I hope you don't think that we should slaughter animals and sacrifice them because the ancients did it?

God Bless.
 
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Trento

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I don't know that big cross, with Jesus nailed to at the front of the Church not far from here, and many other strikes me as an Icon.

That's a Graven Image. Jesus is God. You do not make an image of God for that is forbodden.

Much different than decorations in the Temple. Nobody bowed, kissed, or prayed at the decorations feet.

Also, the whole "bowing" thing. It's not bowing it's genuflecting much different than bowing. Genuflecting for those who do not know is bending the knee to the floor or ground in worship.



No images of God are to be made, because the people of God saw no form of God on mount Horeb. But despite this, even in the Old Testament, religious objects and statues could be made as long as they were not known to represent God himself:
Numbers 21:

8 And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live."

9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.
In fact, it was even acceptable to venerate religious objects by bowing towards them:
Leviticus 19:30 You shall venerate my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Psalm 138:2 I bow down toward thy holy temple...
It was also acceptable to make self-expression with religious objects, such as the Jordan altar (Joshua 22:9-34), or a procession:
2Samuel 6:

11 And the ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months; and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household.

12 And it was told King David, "The LORD has blessed the household of Obededom and all that belongs to him, because of the ark of God." So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom to the city of David with rejoicing;

13 and when those who bore the ark of the LORD had gone six paces, he sacrificed an ox and a fatling.

14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod [religious garb].

15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the horn.
And so while some objects and acts were governed strictly, such as the priestly liturgical censers (Leviticus 10:1-10), freedom was given regarding other religious objects and acts. Even so, the first point must be repeated: Scripture forbade the making or bowing to images of God Himself because God's people had not seen His form (Deuteronomy 4:15-16).
But the incarnation of Jesus Christ changed that circumstance. As is written:

John 14:

7 "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him."

8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied."

9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?
So in the person of Jesus we have now seen God's form, which therefore removes the reason for prohibiting images of God (Deuteronomy 4:15-16). And it is written "a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness" (Hebrews 7:15). Thus now the measure of idolatry is not by externals (Luke 11:37-41), by merely having or not having images of God, but instead the measure comes from the heart (Matthew 15:10-20, 1Tim 1:5). This is the law of Christ (1st Cor 9:21, Gal 6:2), setting us free from legalism (Romans 7:6), as it is written:
Romans 13:

8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Col 2:

13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

14 having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (cf. Galatiosn 4:21-31)
Indeed, with the incarnation of Jesus ushering in this new dispensation, Jesus at last revealed the Old Testament bronze serpent (Numbers 21:8-9) to have been actually an image of Himself all along, though the Old Testament people were not before permitted to know it. As it is written:
John 3: 13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

14 And as Moses lifted up the [bronze] serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up,

15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."
Thus, with the heart being the standard, some people having not a single statue or image in their house might still have hearts full of idolatry and corruption. However a neighbor could have statues of Jesus in every room, and yet still not have the least bit of idolatry in his heart or home.

Indeed just as "kisses" are willfully made holy (Romans 16:16) through our shared priesthood (1st Peter 2:9), likewise images lovingly made and acknowledged to be of God are also "set apart" and made holy by definition. And since God is omnipresent, He is thus also present in these holy images. Thus bowing towards a holy image mimicks the veneration of the temple, which itself epitomized God's presence and was also bowed towards (Psalm 138:2, Leviticus 19:30).
Competent ministers permit or teach this spirit filled understanding, rather than demanding an undiscerning legalistic interpretation of Scripture to call down judgment upon Christians who venerate holy images (2nd Corinthians 3:6). Indeed, only if someone's heart is dangerously tempted with idolatry will a minister then discipline the "externals" (Acts 10:25-26, Revelation 19:10). And it is only when the glory of God is outright "exchanged" for images do these images finally become idols (Romans 1:23).

To be sure, the apostles did not command religious images or objects to be gathered or venerated. However, they did teach "do not quench the spirit" (1Thessalonians 5:19) and then simply watched on as the saints by themselves discovered the piety of religious images or objects - such as the miracles in relics recorded here in Scripture:
Acts 19:

11 And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,

12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
 
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sunlover1

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And so while some objects and acts were governed strictly, such as the priestly liturgical censers (Leviticus 10:1-10), freedom was given regarding other religious objects and acts.

Very interesting post Trento.

How would we know which is alright then from what I quoted above?

And how do we know if we're worshipping or merely honoring something?
For instance, I honor my Bible.


sunlover <---- never thought of kissing her Bible before.
 
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