statuettes.... Error?!?

Benedicta00 · Feb 15, 2007

Originally Posted by Benedicta00
I beg to differ. my arm not being twisted is nither here nor there. I am of the opinion that Uphill open threads all the time specific about Catholicism and he knows how they will turn out.

He seeks to debate just us, He really doesn't want answers.

I think it would be better if he would just come clean and admit that.

If he wanted answers and not everyone to attack our beliefs and practices, he would ask these question in OBOB.

Listen Bene, you called me a sinner for not venerating Mary.

So please don't be a hypocrite. You are allowed to leave to go to OBOB. No one is forcing you here.

Also, there are so many protestant bashing threads, and even though I may stand up for catholics, I haven't seen the same coming from one catholic in regards to protestants.

Myriah,

I'm intrigued, really. This is the response you give me to my post above?

I can now add hypocrite to the list of name I've been called, so it's like that, huh?

I'm not understanding something here at all... is there any particular reason you felt the need to say that I can call you a sinner for not venerating Mary?

How is that even relevant?

And where have I even come close to even suggesting such a ridiculous thing?

I'm intrigued...with this response. Totally intrigued, especially since this is your sig...Gal 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

and I don't post in threads that bate Protestants, I don't even read them so that's why you don't see me "sticking up for Protestants." But I'm glad you keep brining up the compassion, it tell me you do realize what is happening here.

Benedicta00 · Feb 15, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
I am sorry UB . . but that sounds an awful lot like someone who prepares everything for a destructive fire, but does not light it himself, rather leaves the match to another to do the actual lighting saying "I am not responsible for what he/she did" when someone else comes along and picks up the match and actually lights the fire . . . . . . .

Such a one cannot decry all responsibility or even most of the responsiblity for what happens. . .

.

Exactly!

Benedicta00 · Feb 15, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
so then. Questioning something is setting up a fire?

As I stated before, if you felt like it was going to be a problem in a thread, stay out of it. I admit that some people attack like pit bulls, but thems the breaks.

and if we stayed out of it, who then would defend our faith from those who misrepresent it?

The best we can do, is take all the shots at us theologically and personally, try not to let it get to us, while just state over and over the truth about what we believe.

Uphill Battle · Feb 15, 2007

Benedicta00 said:
and if we stayed out of it, who then would defend our faith from those who misrepresent it?

The best we can do, is take all the shots at us theologically and personally, try not to let it get to us, while just state over and over the truth about what we believe.

fine then, post if you feel you must. Ignore those who attack. This speaks nothing of those whom do not. My major problem with this argument though, is that immediately, if we disagree, we are "bashing."

Benedicta00 · Feb 15, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
fine then, post if you feel you must. Ignore those who attack. This speaks nothing of those whom do not. My major problem with this argument though, is that immediately, if we disagree, we are "bashing."

I'm not ignoring those who say things about us, or what we believe that isn't true, uphill.

I'm not gong to ignore posts that basically say we're lying when we correct the misrepresentations. I do however try my best to ignore the personal jabs taken at me but I'm not always successful. I am human after all. Cut me and I do bleed.

But there is something called passive agressive too, where threads are opened all sweet and nice with a disclaimer that they are not here to debate etc... knowing all the while what kind of attention their thread is going to receive. You aren't the only one who opens threads like that. Catholic do it to Protestants also.

I know you keep saying why you don't want to post in OBOB and I can not disagree with you, I don't go in there hardly ever myself because they can be unreasonable but if all you wanted was a answer to what you asked, then you should have asked in OBOB. I'm sorry but that was a train wreck waiting to happen.

If you wanted to be able to disagree with the answer given and debate about it, then I have to ask, why were you anticipating that you were going to be disagreeing with us?

You could have asked in OBOB, like you said, got our answer with a pat on the head and then, if you really disagreed that badly, you could have then opened the thread here but in a different way.

The way you opened just looks like a set up to us. I'm sorry if that's not the case but you should have known...

youthwalk · Feb 15, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
hello all.

I was waiting for my fiancee to finish getting her hair done, when I came across a place where they were selling statuettes of Mary, Christ, etc...

I ordinarily don't care much about the statuettes... I've seen them before, and RCC believes many things about Mary that I do not, but that is their perogative.

A few left me with a disturbed feeling, however.

For instance:

This statue was titled "Mary instructs Christ." In her hand is a bible.

this one is called "lighting the way."

this one depicts Mary as some kind of warrior. On the chalice, it has JHS... dont' know what that means.

did a count on the statuettes. (the table went around the corner, not pictured.) 3 statuettes of Christ. 2 of Mother Theresa. a dabbling of statuettes of unnamed saints. 58 statuettes of Mary.

Now, whether or not Marian Dogmas of RCC are true or not (I do not wish do debate that.) Even if they ARE true....

does the fact that Marian statuettes out number those of Christ nearly 20 to 1 not speak of the attention given Mary as opposed to Christ?

does the fact that they depict Mary instructing Christ in the scriptures not bug anyone?

The other two photos would require some explaination to me, but they left me feeling oddly bothered.

Another one, not pictured, showed Mary standing on a snake. I know what scripture this is in reference to, but the scripture states
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

In which the seed (Christ) would bruise his head (the serpent) NOT Mary.

Perhaps some clarification is in order.

However, I do not want this to turn in to a flame war. Please refrain from doing so.

I simply want to question RCC members on what appears to be error, most tellingly the crushing of the snake, the Mary teaching Christ scripture, and the overwhelming amount of attention paid to Mary in statuettes... as opposed to Jesus.

Any thoughts?

I AM NOT DEBATING AND I INTEND NO HOSTILITY.

I was Catholic until a few months after I was confirmed. I truthfully never understood the veneration of statues. It made me uneasy even then when I was 17. I stopped saying the Hail Mary because in all sense to me, it was a prayer to Mary and while I respected and admired her position as the vessel who carried Our Saviour and her love and obedience, I couldn't pray to her or to the angels (St. Michael the Archangel). I didn't know much Scripture as I wasn't exposed to the Bible at church or at home, whatI knew was what I was taught.

I still couldn't do it. I felt so empty and s I drifted away from the religion, I drew closer to God.

I make no judgements as I am in no position to do so, but speaking as someone who has venerated Mary, a wooden cross at Easter, prayer TO an angel to watch over me, and has said the Hail Mary...I still don't understand how it's ok.

The kind of spiritual life I experience now...WOW! It's amazing and I see the AWESOMNESS of God manifest. I feel alive and submitted to the Lord.
Alll I will do is continue to pray that God grants me wisdom and understanding.

But, honestly I really never understood.

icedtea · Feb 15, 2007

Benedicta00 said:
and if we stayed out of it, who then would defend our faith from those who misrepresent it?

The best we can do, is take all the shots at us theologically and personally, try not to let it get to us, while just state over and over the truth about what we believe.

I thought God would be well able to defend his "true church" from all.

Benedicta00 · Feb 15, 2007

HowardDean said:
I thought God would be well able to defend his "true church" from all.

and he is through us...

icedtea · Feb 15, 2007

He can't do it without your help?

Benedicta00 · Feb 15, 2007

HowardDean said:
He can't do it without your help?

and how would he do that?

I must admit, I'm lost here, what point are you trying to make?

We're wrong for correcting false statement made about the Catholic Church? Like we worship the saints and Mary??

God should come in and take care of that himself? Is that your point?

Uphill Battle · Feb 15, 2007

Benedicta00 said:
and how would he do that?

I must admit, I'm lost here, what point are you trying to make?

We're wrong for correcting false statement made about the Catholic Church? Like we worship the saints and Mary??

God should come in and take care of that himself? Is that your point?

no, you SHOULD stand up for what you believe in....

icedtea · Feb 15, 2007

God can't let his church disappear. I do not need to defend Him, I don't see Him making any statements as to protestants don't have the full truth, so until that happens (never) I will believe I have the full truth and need no extras.

JimfromOhio · Feb 15, 2007

Church won't disappear as long as the "spiritual Church" is around which of course believers (or Christians). Local Churches may disappear due to lack of joy and commitment to the Lord. Or, they are not real believers.

thereselittleflower · Feb 15, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
as if anyone could. IF your honest with yourself, you know that is not my intent. I just don't have much patience for playing the percecution card.

That doesn't answer my question UB . . you say you aren't trying to silence us .. .. but when we tell you our concerns, you say basically to stay out of your threads, if we don't like it, tough cookies . . . . .

That, in my book, is an attempt to silence us on these matters. . . . .

.

thereselittleflower · Feb 15, 2007

HowardDean said:
God can't let his church disappear. I do not need to defend Him,

I completely agree . . .

I don't see Him making any statements as to protestants don't have the full truth, so until that happens (never) I will believe I have the full truth and need no extras.

HD . . . . I was just thinking . . .

There are phrases both Catholics and Protestants use . . but because of differences in perspective, they don't have the same meaning. And because of this, when one uses the term they way they use it, it can be misunderstood by the other and it can even seem offensive.

You have the Fulness of Truth HD . . .

The Fulness of Truth is a PERSON . . and His name is Jesus.

When we use the term 'fulness of truth" we are not talking about a person, but rather the full deposit of faith given by the apostles, the doctrines of the Christian faith.

That does not mean that Catholics personally have more of Jesus than Protestants do . . . That is a personal issue between each of us and God . . . Whether one is Catholic or Protestant makes no difference.

When we say we have the fullness of truth, all we are saying is that we believe that we have kept to the full deposit of faith given by the Apostles and that protestants have let some of those teachings go . . .

That doesn't mean that Protestants don't have Jesus who is the Fulness of Truth Himself.. . . it only has to do with understanding . . . . not with possession of Christ.

Never should the Catholic statement that we have the fulness of truth be construed in such a way to mean that no one but Catholics have Christ who is the Fulness of Truth Himself. . ...

Does that make sense?

HD . . you have Christ, who is the Fulness of Truth Himself.

.

thereselittleflower · Feb 15, 2007

HowardDean said:
He can't do it without your help?

WEll, in the context of this thread, I suppose that God could come down and start typing on a key board somewhere and defend Himself quite well . .

But the fact is, God has chosen to do so through people . . .

.

thereselittleflower · Feb 15, 2007

Uphill Battle said:
fine then, post if you feel you must. Ignore those who attack. This speaks nothing of those whom do not. My major problem with this argument though, is that immediately, if we disagree, we are "bashing."

UB, come now . . not a single Catholic has made that claim!

Who is complaining about disagreement?

NO ONE!

What is being brought to your attention are accusations of idolatry, etc . . . .

That is much different than simply disagreeing . . .

.

HisKid1973 · Feb 15, 2007

thereselittleflower That doesn't mean that Protestants don't have Jesus who is the Fulness of Truth Himself.. . . it only has to do with understanding . . . . not with possession of Christ. Does that make sense? HD . . you have Christ said:
Finally you have explained it broken down simpler for me to understand...Now i see where your coming from and why you choose to believe that way...pax...kim

icedtea · Feb 15, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
When we say we have the fullness of truth, all we are saying is that we believe that we have kept to the full deposit of faith given by the Apostles and that protestants have let some of those teachings go . . .

.

The lds church says the same thing. And I choose not to believe either assertion.

thereselittleflower · Feb 15, 2007

youthwalk said:
I AM NOT DEBATING AND I INTEND NO HOSTILITY.

I was Catholic until a few months after I was confirmed. I truthfully never understood the veneration of statues. It made me uneasy even then when I was 17. I stopped saying the Hail Mary because in all sense to me, it was a prayer to Mary and while I respected and admired her position as the vessel who carried Our Saviour and her love and obedience, I couldn't pray to her or to the angels (St. Michael the Archangel). I didn't know much Scripture as I wasn't exposed to the Bible at church or at home, whatI knew was what I was taught.

I still couldn't do it. I felt so empty and s I drifted away from the religion, I drew closer to God.

I make no judgements as I am in no position to do so, but speaking as someone who has venerated Mary, a wooden cross at Easter, prayer TO an angel to watch over me, and has said the Hail Mary...I still don't understand how it's ok.

The kind of spiritual life I experience now...WOW! It's amazing and I see the AWESOMNESS of God manifest. I feel alive and submitted to the Lord.
Alll I will do is continue to pray that God grants me wisdom and understanding.

But, honestly I really never understood.

Hi youthwalk

I was raised Eastern Orthodox. When I was in highschool, I had a very profound conversion experience and became Protestant as I couldn't accept varous parts of the EO teachings either . . and my exerpiences of the awesomeness of God continued to grow and grow. . . . beyond anything I had ever imagined or dreamed. . . .

I can tell you that I never ever imagined that I would come to a point of understanding these things regarding the Catholic faith . . . . and this was true for over 30 years.

But I can tell you this. . . Once I did come to understand and accept and embrace these teachings, everything I had experienced up to that point (and some of it was so incredibly awesome and powerful I cannot begin to explain), was as nothing compared to what I have experienced in the Catholic faith since . . . .

It was like leaving the surface of the ocean and plunging into the depths . . . .

I know this seems incredible and unbelievable . . but I can assure you it is true, and it is the experience of many who have done just as you and I did, and then came back to the apostolic faith.

It is my hope and prayer that one day you will be able to understand these things as they were meant to be understood.

.

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