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State Rights issue? Re: Coming ICE raids

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by rambot, Jun 21, 2019.

  1. carlv_52

    carlv_52 Active Member

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    It should have been stupid to have to go to war over the idea that owning other humans (especially in a nation predicated on statements all about human freedom and equality). Sadly it was still quite necessary for us to fight that.

    I think that these types of conflicts show us where our "ideals" run afoul of our "immediate wants".

    America likes to tell itself it is a nation of immigrants as if we claim that virtue, when in reality we have always disliked the newest immigrants coming in while ignoring our own immigrant roots.

    In terms of illegal immigrants we show an even darker hypocrisy. We want cheap services and agricultural work so we love and use the illegal immigrants' labor with gusto. But we also want to maintain them as secondary or sub-human so we must denigrate them at all possible opportunities. One party has leveraged that perfectly human desire to exploit others without consequence to unite around.

    And so, here we are again, trying to figure out how we can simultaneously pay lip service to human value AND still get cheap human labor or further define ourselves in distinction to "lesser beings".
     
  2. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

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    The hypocrisy is with the government and not the people. I can't stand how the government continues to ignore what the people want. Democrats want illegals to be here and then give them stuff and make them legal so they have more voters. Republicans want illegals for cheap labor for business.

    Generally people want immigrants to be legal. We love immigrants as long as they come and stay in a legal fashion. I'm an immigrant and have immigrant family.
     
  3. carlv_52

    carlv_52 Active Member

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    Nope. It isn't the government driving their pick-up trucks through the parking lot of Home Depot on Saturday morning looking for cheap labor. I'm even guilty of it! When I lived in Southern California I fell prey to the desire to get some yardwork done that was beyond my abilities (or desires) so we hired a dude we are pretty sure was illegal. He did good work and did it for cheap. I still feel dirty for having done this.

    I believe the second part is true of both Dems and Repubs. As for "more voters" that's just absurd. No one is doing that considering that illegals can't vote in federal elections and the Republicans are lying to you about systemic issues with voter ID fraud. It just doesn't happen at any measurable levels.

    Interestingly when I lived in a community in Southern Cali we had probably almost as many undocumented families in our town as legal citizens. They were the most family-oriented, hardest working people I've ever seen. It was like America in the 1950's.

    I'd vastly prefer the undocumented immigrants become legal, but that isn't what any of this is really about. We as Americans want that cheap labor and we don't want to give them the respect of full humanity. Making them all legal overnight would only make the rest of America extremely unhappy. NOT because they'd be taking jobs from most of us (they wouldn't) but because then we'd have to treat them like real people and that means paying them decently and not having a causus belli to turn an entire political party on to.
     
  4. Ringo84

    Ringo84 Separation of Church and State expert

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    "All men are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights, that among them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"

    What's that? These are illegal immigrants? Well, I guess they don't have any rights and we can shove them into camps.

    - Constitutional scholars in this thread. Isn't it great that our concern for people and their welfare depends on how they immigrated here?
    Ringo
     
  5. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

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    The hypocrisy is with the government and not the people. I can't stand how the government continues to ignore what the people want. Democrats want illegals to be here and then give them stuff and make them legal so they have more voters. Republicans want illegals for cheap labor for business.

    Generally people want immigrants to be legal. We love immigrants as long as they come and stay in a legal fashion. I'm an immigrant and have immigrant family.
    Well I did say the Dems want them for voters once they become legal. That's the point. It's a "com on in and we'll give you stuff then make you legal." That way they figure they'll get voters.

    And the people will do what's given to them because that's how we are. Unless you are telling me you want illegals. Are you saying you want illegals?

    We as humans tend to take advantage of what's offered. As a business I see why. Too often our principles are overpowered by our desire for money. It's too bad.

    They are not undocumented immigrants, they are illegal immigrants breaking the law.

    I want the illegals sent home. Then we open up to.more work visas. We are taking advantage of illegal people like you say. And they are getting more money than they ever would at home. However it's not right.
     
  6. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

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    Well if guess we could put them in jail for breaking the law. I dunno, at least in camps we can and SHOULD keep the families together.
     
  7. Ringo84

    Ringo84 Separation of Church and State expert

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    Fleeing violence in your home country is not a crime. Hope this helps you understand America a bit better (not holding my breath).
    Ringo
     
  8. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe I said that refugees were illegal immigrants. I was talking strictly about illegal immigrants who by the virtue of being here illegally are committing a crime.

    But you bring up a good point about the refugees. The law needs to be changed regarding them. The law is extremely outdated. The application of it doesn't work any more.
     
  9. Ringo84

    Ringo84 Separation of Church and State expert

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    1. It's not a crime to flee here from a violence-ridden country.
    2. Even if #1 was not true, that is not an excuse for putting people in concentration camps.

    I said it in another thread: sputtering "B-b-b-b-but the law!" should join "I was just following orders" in the pantheon of lame, unacceptable excuses for atrocities.
    Ringo
     
  10. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

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    It's not a crime to be a refugee. So we agree that n that. Not sure why you keep bringing that up.

    They should be kept in camps until their hearing date. They should be fed, clothed, given medical care etc. They should be treated with dignity and respect. But with most of them now not showing up for hearings they need to be held.
     
  11. Ringo84

    Ringo84 Separation of Church and State expert

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    Because you and/or others keep talking about these people "breaking the law".

    I'm legitimately glad to hear you admit that.

    Nope: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...s-released-migrants-miss-their-court-hearings

    The most brutal thing of all is that the hare-brained reasons for detaining these people are lies, which means that the entire operation is unnecessary cruelty.
    Ringo
     
  12. Pommer

    Pommer Autodidact polymath

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    They used to be released in-country to wait (and get jobs, and live life), for their case to be adjudicated.
    “Catch and keep” is a Trumpian doctrine. Without adequate funding it quickly turns into a “crisis”.
     
  13. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

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    Isnt immigration, a federal matter?
     
  14. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

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    Well it appears you are incorrect about me. So no need to harp on that since we agree.

    Acting DHS Secretary Reveals Whopping Percentage of Migrants Don't Show for Their Court Hearings

    It appears that this new crop of refugees are of a different mind. It plays into what we knew about them which is the majority of of them aren't really true refugees. They just use that as an excuse to get in because we are so lax about it.

    The refugee law needs to be changed.
     
  15. Ringo84

    Ringo84 Separation of Church and State expert

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    Well...I hope this is honest and not some weird attempt to gain my acceptance. Everyone - especially those who call themselves Christians - should be opposed to these concentration camps. If you're legitimately with us on that, then cheers.

    So no need to harp on that since we agree.

    Acting DHS Secretary Reveals Whopping Percentage of Migrants Don't Show for Their Court Hearings

    It appears that this new crop of refugees are of a different mind. It plays into what we knew about them which is the majority of of them aren't really true refugees. They just use that as an excuse to get in because we are so lax about it.

    The refugee law needs to be changed.[/QUOTE]

    I'm very suspicious of any statistics quoted by the current regime. I don't trust a word they say, and especially if it is used as an excuse to continue cracking down on immigrants.

    But I do agree that immigration law needs to be changed to make it easier to seek asylum, easier to migrate (catch and release), and easier to gain citizenship.
    Ringo
     
  16. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

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    I'm very suspicious of any statistics quoted by the current regime. I don't trust a word they say, and especially if it is used as an excuse to continue cracking down on immigrants.

    But I do agree that immigration law needs to be changed to make it easier to seek asylum, easier to migrate (catch and release), and easier to gain citizenship.
    Ringo[/QUOTE]

    We are on agreement than refugees are not breaking the law. We also agree they shouldn't be put in concentration camps. I was recently in Germany and visited real concentration camps. I was opposed to those before and I still am.

    I am for keeping the refugees in camps. Places where families are kept together, they get to keep their belongings, they are feed, housed, clothed, given medical care and treated with humanity and dignity. They stay until their hearing. Once they are heard and found to meet the standards then they are let in. If not then they get sent home.
     
  17. Ringo84

    Ringo84 Separation of Church and State expert

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    We are on agreement than refugees are not breaking the law. We also agree they shouldn't be put in concentration camps. I was recently in Germany and visited real concentration camps. I was opposed to those before and I still am.

    I am for keeping the refugees in camps. Places where families are kept together, they get to keep their belongings, they are feed, housed, clothed, given medical care and treated with humanity and dignity. They stay until their hearing. Once they are heard and found to meet the standards then they are let in. If not then they get sent home.[/QUOTE]

    OK, we seem to be mostly in agreement.

    I'm not sure I completely agree with housing them, though; even temporarily. I would prefer that families were processed and allowed to go wherever they want, as long as there's an understanding that they should return for immigration court.
    Ringo
     
  18. NotreDame

    NotreDame Domer Supporter

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    “Should’ve been”? According to whom? The countless slaves at the time probably would disagree with your assessment. In fact, one need not engage in much research to find blacks at the time, free and slave, did not view the Civil War, a war which was not initially fought with the objective of freedom for slaves, was “stupid.” The abolitionist, as evinced from their writings, didn’t share your opinion. Neither did Frederick Douglas.

    Of course this isn’t a popularity contest, so I digress. The Civil War, which eventually sought to also address the issue of slavery, was not “stupid.” Fundamental questions of humanity, what it meant to be human, what the nation collectively stood for in regards to ideals such as freedom, equality, all in relation to slavery, was determined by the Civil War. The Civil War undoubtedly answered those questions politically, legally, and to some extent philosophically. The answer was resolute. Notions of property interests in people defied what it meant to be human, slavery was contrary to human dignity, the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments we’re passed, along with a civil rights statute, all of which created a trajectory in the U.S. for a greater realization of liberty, equality, and fairness for non-whites and blacks, albeit an agonizingly slow progress as yet to conclude in completion or perfection.

    So, those considerations show the war was not “stupid.” Tragic? Yes. Unfortunate? Yes.
     
  19. carlv_52

    carlv_52 Active Member

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    I meant it should NOT be acceptable in a nation founded on the ideal of all men being created equal that they would maintain slavery as long as we did (or at all).
    ...
    Of course this isn’t a popularity contest, so I digress. The Civil War, which eventually sought to also address the issue of slavery, was not “stupid.”[/quote]

    Oh I agree, it was deadly serious! I just think it is sad that humanity's flaws required us to enter into a bloody battle that killed countless numbers of people with a topic as simply understood as "slavery = bad".

    I did not mean to say that the sacrifice or pain of the war was "stupid" but rather that people are often quite stupid. They can have high-minded ideals like "all men are created equal" but the minute their petty desires step up to the plate they can OFTEN rationalize the most evil actions for the simple expedient of personal pleasure and wants.

    We are not all that smart even today. But certainly the very men who penned the phrase "all men are created equal" should have been able to see the disconnect (say whatever you will about their thoughts at that time of others as less-than-human, but that is probably just a rationalization on their part.)
     
  20. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Supremacy Clause was ratified by the states in 1789. The reason the South succeeded was to avoid that law being enforced on them.
     
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