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State of the Dead

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by EastCoastRemnant, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Actually MY BODY IS DEAD, Given to God as a LIVING sacrifice Spiritually Crucified with Christ.

    MY SOUL IS RESOTRED, back to what it WAS when God imparted a LIVING SOUL into my BODY, that WAS "very Good", but that became corrupt, being IN MY corrupt Body.

    MY Natural spirit, BECAME BORN AGAIN, When God circumcised MY HEART, and PLANTED HIS SEED in my new Heart, thus
    Birthing MY NEW spiritual spirit.

    Sorry BUT you can not ENTER Gods Kingdom, WITHOUT having had Christ MAKING YOU WHOLLY, WHOLE, body, soul, & spirit.
    1 Thes 5:23

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  2. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    I am so delighted to see that it seems so many more have made advancement in their understanding since I took a year or so break from the Internet.

    While I see some small problems with the perspective you give in this post, you have very good reasoning and are right there close.

    I have to believe this is proof that God's spirit is yet active in Christendom among its meek. There are obviously yet meek there. That is why I have been tossing the idea around in my head to evaluate whether Babylon the Great is purely a spiritual city, even as the true Jerusalem is a spiritual city.

    You say, "MY SOUL IS RESOTRED, back to what it WAS when God imparted a LIVING SOUL into my BODY, that WAS "very Good", but that became corrupt, being IN MY corrupt Body."

    That then would make you perfect, right?

    Also, how is it that God only imparted the breath (spirit of life) into Adams body and by that Ada BECAME a living soul ---- BUT ----- for you God imparted the living soul itself into your body?

    Can you help me out wit that confusion?
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  3. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Sure.

    Gen 1:27. Man made male and female.
    Gen 1:31. All creation made very good.
    (More details concerning mankind)
    Gen 2: 7 (a) man (body) formed
    Gen 2: 7 (b) man (body) quickened...
    ...ie. Brought into a living state.
    ...ie. Via a soul with life from God
    ...... Imparted into the man (body)

    Now the Form (body) and it's being quickened to life....is a living soul.

    Man decides (via his Mind's reasoning), to Eat what was forbidden.
    Sin against God? Later, we find it was called Sin, but such a thing was not known to Adam.
    It was TO Adam's knowledge, simply not doing as God directed Him to do.

    ....First man's, First disobedience to God.
    ....First man's, Consequence for disobedience.
    DEATH. Physical DEATH? No, Spiritual Death.

    All DEATH, "physical" and /or "spiritual" IS Separation from God.

    God IS Life, and ALL LIFE, in whatever form, is LIFE from God, IMPARTED into "something", (ie a vessel of sorts).

    ...Blood, is the body's life, formed by God.
    ...Soul, is living, via, Gods Breath.
    ...Spirit, is living, via, Gods Spirit.

    The Separation of man from God...
    Gen 3: 23 Adam Sent out of the Garden, out from Where God was WITH him.

    CLUE:
    Adam was forgiven for his disobedience.
    Gen 2:21. Animal slaughtered, Skin of animal used to Cover Adams' SIN, ie His Shame, ie his body, His Forgiveness.

    CLUE: Gen. 3:22
    Tree of Life, in the Garden, sustains LIFE, ie Keeps a man WITH God, but not a Tree that Adam ate from, thus, he would experience, physical death.

    Gen 5: 2. (A recap of mankind)
    CLUE: both (male husband), and (female wife), were named BY God....ADAM.

    Gen 5: 3. Once out of the Garden, they reproduced Seth, in their (Adam's) likeness and image.

    Thereafter, all of mankind became reproduced in Man's likeness and image....and the WHOLE goal, is for mankind, to become converted, BACK, to Gods Likeness, that He created "very good".

    The HOW; For Hebrews and Jews, was/is, to show their obedience and submission of belief in God, VIA, being obedient to the LAW.

    The HOW; Later was revised, for Jews, and included Gentiles, TO accept Jesus' Blood for atonement / forgiveness of SIN, Against God, of Disbelief. The Jews were elected to Teach it...but quickly, rejected carrying it forward through the centuries. The Gentiles however, through the centuries have embraced the Jewish Messiah, and routinely submit their belief, their body's (crucified), their soul's to be restored, their natural spirits to become quickened, ie. Receiving the SEED of God, birthing their new spiritual spirit, (in their, new circumcised heart), and thus receiving the Spirit of God, to dwell within them.

    They become Wholly Whole, and acceptable to retain Forever Life WITH God, and yes, still their BODY is subject to physical death...
    (Because it is a sentence already spoken BY God, that He requires the Blood (life) of man.
    (Lev...I think offhand, the scripture).
    Which BTW, IS to our benefit, since, MAN can not become "spiritually" alive, without First becoming dead.

    Make me perfect? Makes me Accounted in Gods "records" so to speak, Perfect, Holy, and Acceptable to be WITH Him, He WITH me, and Justified to be Redeemed BY Him, when He returns to "collect" His Church, ie all who have become converted, and shall be gathered together to receive their glorious body's.....having their restored living souls, and born again sprits reimparted into such bodies.
    Still in my corrupt body? Well, according to Gods accounting....my body is dead to sin...and I live IN Christ.
    Natural reality...my flesh body still lives, blood flowing, heart beating.

    Oh, oh, this was Paul's teaching of frustration.
    Yipes...look at this wretched body...and the MIND still functioning....and full well knowing, the natural MIND is against God.

    Ah ha...the wonders of God!! We have Gods Spirit within us, teaching our new born again spirit, in our hearts.....His truths, wisdom, understanding....on HOW TO listen to our heart, OVER our wishy washy conniving natural MIND. AND WHY?
    So, we can Serve the Lord, speaking His word, that other men may hear, and desire to ALSO become converted. AND WHY?
    Because EVERY converted man, becomes...
    Gods Inheritance! And WHO doesn't want a BIG inheritance? God certainly does!

    And one more note:
    Clue; both male and female being NAMED;
    Adam. A foreshadow, about God Himself, as Adam, was made, male and female, in Gods likeness and Gods image.
    So also, IS God in His own Image and Likeness....yet called by different NAMES,
    (Just as Adam, called the woman, by the NAME he chose), So too, Did God call JESUS, (His Word), by the NAME God chose.
    (And Gods POWER? Also by a NAME, God chose, ie Christ).
    Yet, we are to already KNOW, in ONE day, "their" NAME shall be One. One Lord, One Name.

    Zechariah 14:9

    Hope this answered you sufficiently.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  4. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    I picked up a new thought from you which has in my opinion value to consider:
    "CLUE:
    Adam was forgiven for his disobedience.
    Gen 3:21 Animal slaughtered, Skin of animal used to Cover Adams' SIN, ie His Shame, ie his body, His Forgiveness."


    I do not see that is meaning Adams sin was forgiven because Paul plainly says that Adam was not deceived, meaning Adam's sin was a willful sin against God's spirit.

    But that being the case I do have to pause and ask myself, 'Why then cover Adam's shame?' For it is quite obvious that Adam's shame was covered over there in the garden.

    Here is the answer I was given: Had God not covered Adams sin, God would have had to put Adam immediately to death. But God did not desire to destroy all of Adam's seed together with him which is what putting Adam immediately to death would be doing. So the covering over has nothing to do with forgiving sins in a forever forgiven sense, but in a temporary stay of punishment sense for the sake of his as yet unborn offspring.

    Showing that God can recall our sins which he has forgiven: (Ezekiel 33:12-13) (2 Peter 2:20-22)

    Proverbs 26:11 "As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly."

    Jude 1:12 "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; ..."

    So what have we learned then as to how Christ's ransom really works on our behalf? Does his ransom cover us to keep on sinning? Wow! I know a good many disobedient brats who would love that!
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  5. SBC

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    Deception is protraying something that IS NOT, as though IT IS.
    The common denominator (or demon-inator) !! For deception is always instituted BY Satan!

    And the common demon- Satan....always seeks out the WEAKEST to cunningly trick and fool.

    From, the beginning the ORDER of instruction and learning has always been...God, Gods Word, via Gods Power, Man, Woman, Child.

    As soon as Adam was NOT next to Eve, Satan takes advantage of her vulnerability, of her being alone. Satan gets her to Look at him, Listen to him, Engage with Conversation with him....oops, her full attention is now on him.
    (It is the same concept, of WHY we as parents are supposed guard our own children, from outside influences....setting their foundation steeped in the knowledge of God, that outside influences do not capture their attention and lead them astray, that WHEN they venture out into the world, they are prepared to deal with all the trickery, with the Word of God, against the deceptions, from Satan AND other men.)
    Adam going along with Eve's idea that he also eat, as she did...was his choice, and his disobedience...agree, not deceived...nor did he know, that would ultimately be called a SIN against God.
    They figured it out pretty quick, and tried to cover their body's, their shame....and precisely why people COVER their body's, some more than others....because the World says....the body is beautiful, and everyone should get to see AS MUCH OF YOUR BODY as you can get away with showing to everyone whats to have a look.

    It was Eve who was directly deceived. It was Eve who gave the fruit to Adam to eat... as it was pleasing to the eye, and good to eat as food....was Eve's intent....meaning she had NO INTENT to Trick or Deceive Adam, But rather just to share food with him, which she did eat, and found no ill effects. (Immediately anyway).

    Yes, God forgave their disobedience ... and it was covered. I trust their sin of their flesh, and soul was covered, and their spirit quickened.....since Adam was declared, "a son of God". And later we learn for a man to become "a son of God"....he has to be born again, from Gods SEED, being given the man, and ensuring his eternal life with God, despite, the sentence pronounced BY God, that all body's are subject to death.

    We never hear thereafter of Adam asking God for forgiveness.....but do learn;
    1) proclamation of Seth's birth, and them believing he was a gift from the LORD, thus, revealing their belief in God.
    2) Adams Death of his body, revealing, Gods requirement of mans life (blood), being accomplished in Adam. (Gen 5, I think)

    God Recalling our sins?
    I would say Yes and No, dependent upon WHO the man is.

    A man Forgiven his sins? Covered? God recalling? No.

    A man NOT Forgiven his sins? Not covered?
    God recalling? Yes. Because there are consequences for unforgiven sins. The sin must be remembered, revealed, (like evidence), that the consequence to follow, is Just, and thereafter commence.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  6. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    We have to observe Adam AS we would a BABE. Adam was created in an adult BODY, but yet as a BABE with little knowledge and lesser understanding of the little knowledge.

    He was given a few things to do, and ONE RULE. It is the same concept with our own new born children. We give them a few things, One rule, then add more as they grow and mature little by little.
    Rules? Because to boss them? No, for their protection, UNTIL they are steeped in Gods truth, and are prepared to recognize and ward off deception.

    The SIMILARITY, we also find is, babies, like Adam, did not know what sin is, know to believe in God, trust Him above all other things, ask Him for forgiveness.... such reasoning without the knowledge thereof, is not possible. As Adam, was saved, being in his immature state, so also are babies, who die.

    And your comment about "brats".... yep quite prevelant. And whose job is it to teach and set a baby's foundation in Gods Way and Truth? According to God...the parents He gifted that baby to. According to the World?
    Government, Schools, Teachers, Babysitters, Grandparents, other kids....the TV, video games, perhaps the family dog....pretty much ANYONE BUT the parents!! Thus... the "brats"..... SAD TOO, since kids DO Like a set direction without confusion, knowing what is and is not expected of them. Sadly kids are tossed to and fro...pretty much parent-less, impressed they are a burden, a nuisance, stupid, worthless, or given authority to dictate how the household will be managed....

    Indoctrinated in all the wrong things and oops, sad, sad, sad, their state of confusion, and conflict in their lives, to wanting escape via drugs and suicide. :(
    Sad, sad, sad!!

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  7. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Your thinking negates the need of Christ as our last Adam.
     
  8. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    No sir, once again you trick yourself with your reasoning. Think:

    You said, "We have to observe Adam AS we would a BABE. Adam was created in an adult BODY, but yet as a BABE with little knowledge and lesser understanding of the little knowledge."

    You are trying to compare the perfect man Adam was before he sinned who was connected by spirit to God ----- WITH ------- we today who are born imperfect and disconnected from the spirit of God. We are born with an inability to understand spiritual things. Adam was created with perfect faculties for deducing and understanding.
     
  9. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. Adam was created "not perfect", but rather "very good". We are made, formed by God. We are made, formed by God, then born corrupt.


    My comparison, was ADAM did not ASK for forgiveness, How did he know or reason to ASK? Neither do babies ASK for forgiveness, since neither do they know or reason to ASK, yet LIKE Adam, they ARE forgiven and taken to be WITH God.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  10. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Be careful to presume you know my thinking.
    I have never margenalized or stated Christ is not needed.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  11. EastCoastRemnant

    EastCoastRemnant I Must Decrease That He May Increase Supporter

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    The spirit is our consciousness. When God made man, there was only two elements that made him a living soul... dust and the breath of life. We have no spirit as a separate entity... only God is spirit. That spirit He gives to us is our conscience selves through the breath that gives us life.
     
  12. EastCoastRemnant

    EastCoastRemnant I Must Decrease That He May Increase Supporter

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    Do you believe the sacrificial system of the OT was to cover sin or to forgive sin?
     
  13. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Excuse me...interjecting a bit of a difference in understanding.

    BODY is the MAN, the earthen Vessel that God FORMS from DUST. It HAS an appointment with Death.
    It HAS it's OWN natural LIFE, called BLOOD.

    SOUL is a thing, God has made, IN the soul, IS LIFE from God. How and why God gives MAN a "living soul"...
    How - blowing it into a mans nostrils.
    Why - It causes LIFE from God to enter the Body.
    Why - to bring the body into a LIVING STATE.
    (Ie quickens the body).

    WHAT does it DO? It is a recorded keeper, so to speak. It IS the spiritual record of everything, we think, do, remember, or mentally forget. It is the connection to our FEELINGS, our Senses, touch, smell, etc., our knowledge....basically a living recorder....

    And WHAT about it? IT BELONGS TO GOD!
    A complete record of everything in and of our body, and the LIFE IN THE soul, of course ALSO belongs to God, as ALL LIFE FROM HIM, IS HIS, as HE IS LIFE.

    And that "record" will come in pretty handy on Judgement Day. Don't worry about...or maybe DO wonder about...what the SOUL knows and you have forgotten in your mind...

    The spirit of man, IS natural, and is simply, ASIDE FROM YOUR MIND, and aside from your soul....YOUR TRUTH, in your heart.

    You know in your heart, certain TRUTHS, that your mind can not trick you or make you doubt. You can keep your truth hidden in your heart, WHILE you reveal the complete opposite of the truth, devised in your mind, and spoken with your mouth. Or to some you may elect to reveal the truth in your heart.

    No matter, God and you, know the truth in your heart....and why precisely, when confessing belief in God, He requires it be from YOUR HEART, which is to say, your spirit.

    Our hearts can become corrupt, by filling our natural spirit with FALSE TRUTHS, truths perhaps from other men, that you swear by, but yet, have no way to valid it be so.

    Thus, WHEN a man elects to CONFESS and SUBMIT His LIFE to Christ....part of the conversion, is a spiritual circumcision of your heart, called giving you a new heart AND thus allowing a GOOD place for Gods Spirit to enter you, and PLANT HIS SEED in your heart....FOR? TO birth you a NEW spirit. A spiritual spirit, from Gods Seed. AND? So God can FILL your new spirit with HIS TRUTH.
    AND? Thereafter, YOU get to listen to YOUR spirit, INSTEAD of YOUR MIND, that likes to guess, philosophize, wonder, take other men's word....on the TRUTH concerning God....when you are now prepared to DIRECTLY communicate with God, getting His TRUTH, His Knowledge, His Wisdom, His Understanding....First hand.

    When your life (blood) physically dies...
    Your LIVING SOUL, goes to heaven, to WAIT, for your body to be redeemed.
    Your SPIRIT, goes to God.
    Your dead body, goes to the Grave, and WAITS to be redeemed, glorified, and imparted with its soul and spirit.

    Thus, your body is from dust.
    Your living soul from Gods Breath.
    Your born again spirit from the Seed of God.

    God Bless,
    Happy New Year,
    SBC
     
  14. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    Being as I am specifically speaking of what you spoke as constituting that thinking, I do know it.

    If you do not want people to know what you think you will have to stop telling them. :)
     
  15. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Your implication of what you thought I was thinking was to making Christ irrelevant....
    I have never said or implied such a thing.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  16. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    It is important to note that there are two ways forgiveness of sins is seen. One way sees the sin as forever gone, wiped out, not just covered over.

    That old law sacrificial system merely covered over sins not imputing them. Impute is the operative word: Psalms 32:2 "Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile."

    We can compare that to what Paul said about where there is no law there is no imputation of sin:
    Romans 5:13 "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

    Yet what does Paul say about punishment for sin even then? "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses ...." So though sin is not imputed does it mean sin is forgiven in a complete sense? Or, does it only mean the following? Psalms 103:10 "He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities."

    You see, we take far too much for granted and as a result many remain full of excuses (not simply excuses that they already had in them but generated anew by false teaching) which then keeps them sickly.
     
  17. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    I am not saying you know you did, nor am I saying you intended to do so.

    I am saying that thought is there and hidden from you in your words.
     
  18. Hillsage

    Hillsage One 4 Him & Him 4 all Supporter

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    Man was made a triune being from the first breath of air he drew. And it was 'a breath' drawn after God imparted 'from His Spirit', 'a spirit' into the dead body of a man.

    And it was the same 'animating life force' of Jesus' spirit that gave energy to His muscles to draw that same life's breath to bodily live. And it was Jesus surrendering 'His spirit' to the father that did not allow his body muscles to draw another breath, causing Him to expire (breathed his last) died.

    When Jesus raised the daughter of Jairus it was 'her spirit' that returned. Not God's Spirit. IOW I see my theology lineing up with biology.

    And the only 'consciousness that 'your spirit' has is 'from God' and 'from your soul', or' functioning brain '. 1 Cor 2:11
     
  19. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Come on man...no I am not writing some secret, even to myself message against Christ.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  20. EastCoastRemnant

    EastCoastRemnant I Must Decrease That He May Increase Supporter

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    Except the fact that the Bible tells us man BECAME a living soul. Genesis 2:7 Soul=life. No life, no soul.

    In the passage below, are we being told to subject our lives to government or our ethereal God given spirit as you claim?

    Romans 13:1
    Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    And in this passage, how is this, as you suppose, our eternal life? It is speaking of the living creatures in the oceans. Do they have souls as you define it?


    Revelation 16:3
    And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
     
  21. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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  22. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    All have some errors and so I rely primarily on the Greek text and comparisons of even them. For corruptions while more prevalent in the later Greek texts does not mean that just because a text is older that it is corruption free.

    I am educated in the Greek and so when you speak about it I know what you are talking about. That does not mean I always agree with your assessments. I have found that a certain level of perversion goes on there too, largely dependent upon which school and that school's religious affiliations. For men seem unconscionable when it comes to defending what they believe whether their beliefs are mistaken or not.

    I like even the KJV, but I do not take it for granted that the translators are anything more than mere men who are able to and do make mistakes. For that reason I even check and triple check my own conclusions. I always keep alert for my own errors even fifty years down the road.

    Somewhere I saw a translation discussion trying to prove that when Jesus spoke of the road being narrow and few saved the tense used proved that he was speaking only of the Jews and the present situation. I could see right through that person's feeble attempts to justify their desired belief by changing the rules. They would take tense and separate it away from the context so as to independently decide what that tense meant. They may not be a fraud but they most certainly are inexperienced and under educated. That just goes to show that not many ought to be teachers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  23. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    I am not Greek, nor speak Greek, nor read Greek, nor write Greek.

    You made several disparaging comments to me and about me then implied You could not believe what I say for myself, because of the Version of Bible....

    I asked you what Version would be acceptable to you, and what do you want to ask me.

    If it is Greek Speak, then perhaps you should Go to a website that is Greek Speak, everyone here pretty much seems to be conversing in English.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  24. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    I thought I conveyed that most Bible's are fine by me so long as one is willing to look behind how particular verses were translated.

    I thought that left it wide-open for you.
     
  25. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    And with that we can get back to the subject of this thread. How so?

    For us to not completely die we would have to have first returned to that perfect substance. For we are that substance in our entirety. But the corrupted form must corrupt away. It can do nothing but corrupt away. It has no life in it. That is why:

    John 6:53 "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

    Of Christ, having life in himself imparted to him of his Father, it could be said:

    Acts 2:31 "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

    We have clear testimony given us:

    Psalms 49:6-9 "They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches; None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever) that he should still live for ever, and not see corruption."

    What those 4 verses are telling us is that the one who places his trust in his riches rather than in God's provision through Christ, these ones lose out on the precious redemption of their soul and as a result it ceases for ever that they might still live forever and escape that corruption. (As in that complete corrupting away. Gone, finished, perished, never to rise again.)

    The World English Bible words that as follows:

    Psalms 49:6 Those who trust in their wealth, And boast in the multitude of their riches—
    7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, Nor give God a ransom for him.
    8 For the redemption of their life is costly, No payment is ever enough,
    9 That he should live on forever, That he should not see corruption.

    We are noting at all if not for the substance which came to us through Christ and of God. If we let that be corrupted away by refusing to place our trust in God's plan of redemption which can only be found in God's chosen one, the first of God's produce, his Son, then there is nothing at all left to live on. Period.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
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