State of the Dead, Answer to the Endor question

[PaleHorse]

"...Originally Posted by SNPete

Now 1Sam 28:3-20 is kinda interesting. It is the story about Saul when he sought out a medium. The prophet Samuel had just died and Saul wanted to seek Samuel’s advice.
​

​

As we look at this passage pay attention to the language and don’t get hung up on the fact that mediums conjure up demons, who pretend to be dead humans. I believe this is indeed the case. However, God may have made an exception in this one case.

I am using the NKJV translation. In verse11 Saul asks the medium to bring up Samuel. V14 says that Saul perceived it was Samuel. V15 says “Now Samuel said to Saul” V16 begins “Then Samuel said”. V17-19 Samuel continues to speak and gives a prophecy which comes to pass, noting that Saul’s two sons will be in the same place as Samuel.

I appears that Samuel was not sleeping and had a conscious existence after death. Note the language. If indeed this was some kind of spirit pretending to be Samuel, the Word of God would have said so.

Also look at Ecl: 12:5-7, where it states that one’s spirit returns to God when you die. God probably did something with one’s spirit like place it in Sheol. That’s my guess.

I thought I should add: 1Cor 2:11 Which says the spirit of a man knows his thoughts and Rom 8:16, which says that God's spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. These two cites indicate that the spirit is a conscious thing that knows stuff. Not merely a life force or "breath". But our true and real self....."



​

This is an excellent question and I am anxious to address it.

The answer to your question is repeated three times but is often overlooked:



1Sa 28:6 And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.


1Sa 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

Do you see what I'm talking about? The LORD is NOT answering Saul—PERIOD. Hold that in your mind for a second while we continue.

Notice that twice that Lord is not answering Saul even thru PROPHETS. Well--what was Samuel? A prophet! So if God is NOT TALKING to Saul thru ANY means--who is? This next text tell us the answer:

1Ch 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; ("IT") as in FAMILAR SPIRIT--which is not Samuel.

Verse 14 tells us that Saul perceived it was Samuel, not that it was really Samuel; but for the sake of the story the name "Samuel" was used.

Saul had committed the final act of REBELLION by consulting someone that he KNEW had a familiar spirit, verse 7 tells us that plainly. Saul knew what he was doing--he knew God was not answering him--so he turned to the devil for help. Plain and simple.

Also--one more note (and one that avoids the witch issue)--notice in verse 13 where it says, "I saw gods ascending out of the earth"? Well, how does one reconcile the fact that these "gods" (elohiym el-o-heem--"angels, rulers")-were coming "out of the earth". Now certainly of all people, Samuel would have been called DOWN from heaven--not UP out of the earth if his spirit ascended as is the popular belief. You see, believing in the spirit ascending to heaven immediately after death AND believing that the story of Saul and the witch of Endor actually creates a irreconcilable contradiction.

Simply that GOD is not answering Saul--even thru a dead Samuel. When ole Samuel was alive where did he get his info from? From God, right? Why are we to suddenly believe that in death Samuel could produce his own answers?

I know you wanted to avoid the whole "witch" part of it but we cannot for it is important to what we learn from the passage. We are to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, right?

 

[PaleHorse]

If you can show me in Scripture where the Lord tells Saul, or Samuel that He would never again speak to Saul, in any regards, I can change my opinion. Reluctantly
<><

But that's the thing; Samuel was a prophet - and the above verses tell us that even the prophets weren't receiving messages from God. As such, that familiar spirit could not have actually been Samuel. I realize that is isn't stated in the manner you are looking for, for that would certainly make it clearer, but with a bit of consideration I think the answer does come clear.

As for the information that the familiar spirit gave being accurate - I have to say "so?". You see, Satan can use truth or lies (usually a little of both) in order to accomplish his work. What became of Saul after hearing the information from the "spirit"? He would not eat, he was full of fear - he ends up committing suicide rather than fighting to the death like a brave warrior. Is this NOT the work of Satan, shattering the heart of a man? The spirit tells Saul that he would be defeated by the Philistines, and this is a grand prediction how? We are told in 1Sa. 28:1-5 that the entire Philistine army was there - thus Saul was greatly outnumbered. Honestly, I could have predicted that outcome. (Unless of course Saul was in God's favor., which he wasn't at this time.)
And if you notice a subtle thing, and something that points to the error of the prediction given by the spirit, in verse 19 the spirit says that Saul & his sons would "be with me" the next day. If you are saying that the spirit was truly Samuel, and since Samuel was a prophet and thus would have been in heaven by your reckoning, how could Saul & his sons "be with me" (Samuel in heaven) if God's "fierce wrath" (verse 18) was upon him? Simple, it cannot be. This is the error mixed with the truth that Satan told as this "familiar spirit".
I think that covers your arguments - if not please rephrase.

Remember that it is Saul who is saying, "God never talks to me anymore." Not Samuel.

Yeah, Samuel was dead and could not talk.

I could'nt find anywhere where God said He would'nt talk. The verses from chronicles indicate he could have, but Saul did'nt persist.

Does the scripture tells us that? Does it say anything about persistence? No it doesn't; so we shouldn't read into it what isn't there.

Instead, depraved as he was, he resorted to a medium.

And mediums did not have the power to actually raise the dead - raising the dead is not within Satan's power, only Christ's power can do that.

The truth is always twisted by satan.

Very true. Satan always twists the truth, as such he must be able to speak at least partial truths. And that is exactly what we find in the prediction the familiar spirit gives. Remember, there are two parts to the prediction 1) that Saul and his sons would die, and 2) that they would "be with" the spirit after death. If the spirit were Samuel then that means Saul and his sons would be going to heaven; but this is not the case because Saul (as told us in 1 Chr 10:13) had enlisted the help of a medium. Also note; that if that spirit were Samuel then why did rise out of the ground instead of coming down from Heaven?

Saul perceived it to be Samuel.

Saul never saw the spirit. He was told it was the spirit of Samuel based upon the description the medium gave. Since the description seemed accurate Saul perceived it was Samuel - not that it really was Samuel.

Had it been a demon, we would have been told so.

That's why we study the scriptures because even God tells us that all the information of any given topic will not all be in one place. 1 Chr 10:13 gives the answer.

Yet it was telling something that did come true. Saul and his boys did die.

But the second half of the prediction is impossible - thus we have error mixed with truth; Satan's favorite flavor.

I'm not thinking they would be in heaven. In Abrahams bosom, paradise. Not hell.

Do you know what Abraham's bosom really is? I tell ya this, it's not heaven. I know we read about it in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man but it is not said anywhere in that text that Abraham's Bosom = Heaven.

ANd Saul was a man who bemoaned much that the Lord would'nt talk to him. Sin must have clouded his mind enough to seek out a medium. Yet in his twisted mind, he would try anything to hear from the Lord. Anything.

And he did the unfortunate thing of taking Satan's route to information.

Remember though, it was always Saul who said God does'nt talk to me, in any regards. Not that God did'nt talk to any prophets. <><

But it is clearly stated twice that none of the prophets of Saul, which Samuel was, was getting any information from God.

God Bless you,

 

[reddogs]

Here is another good study:
'The story of the Saul and the witch of Endor, found in Samuel chapter 28, is one of the main stories of the bible in which our Catholic friends lean on to prove that people live on in a conscience state after death and before the resurrection. A couple of points are brought forth in defense of thier belief that Saul really spoke to the real Samuel, and not just some evil spirit as Adventists and other christians believe it to be. In this article we will explore what really took place in 1 Samuel 28, and will at the same time address those arguments brought forth against our position. We'll begin by...

Examining the context first.

After briefly talking about the fact that Achish desired to take David with him to battle in verses 1 and 2 (with the intent to further explain this later in chapter 29), the author of this book begins his explination of the story of the witch of Endor by first reassuring the reader that Samuel was by this time dead and that the battle between the Philistines is about to begin (verses 3-5). In verse 6, we read that God decided to never speak to Saul again because of this rebellion; not through dreams, through the Urim (a stone which God used to help the priests make decisions -see Exodus 28:30, Numbers 27:21) and not even "by the prophets." Then the story continues:

1 Samuel 28:7-15
(7) Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
(8) And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
(9) And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
(10) And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
(11) Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
(12) And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
(13) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
(14) And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
(15) And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

It's importnt to note the immediate context. In verse 6 we read that God had promised never to speak to Saul through prophets again. The author felt it important to repeat this point before telling the actual story, that it may be in the mind of the reader as he finds out that it would be what seemed like Samuel the Prophet who appeared during the seance. Already, without getting any deeper then this, we have the author himself telling us beforehand not to forget this point. For the manisfestation therefore to actually be the true Samuel the Prophet, would be for God to go back on his word. In fact, God himself promised, through the prophet, that he would not go back on his word:

1 Samuel 15:26-29
(26) And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.
(27) And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent.
(28) And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou.
(29) And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Of course, the Strength of Israel is God himself (Psalm 18:2, 46:1, 68:35). From this point on we the readers must remember this crucial point to better understand what took place when Saul visited the witch of Endor.

As we continue reading, notice what takes place, perticularly verse 19:

1 Samuel 28:16-20
(16) Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
(17) And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
(18) Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
(19) Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
(20) Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

Notice what the manifestation told Saul. In verse 19 he said that Saul and his sons would the very next day "be with me." Where did Samuel in this story actually come from? We read it earlier. Here it is:

1Samuel 28:13
(13) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

We've been told that this was simply a vision, and that therefore the "ascending out of the earth" should not be taken literally. Okay. But then they take literally that it was really Samuel the Prophet!

We agree that this was a vision of some sort, but we only have the actual description of the story as given by the author to go by. Therefore when we read in verse 13 that Samuel came "up" (see also verse 11) from the earth, we learn that that's where Saul and his sons would go the next day; to the grave. Now our Catholic friends argue that this means just the grave, but that Saul's spirit would go to heaven which is where Samuel presumably is. But this awful interpretation does not take into account the broader context of the life of Saul, especially the events surrounding his death. Notice:

1 Samuel 31:3-4
(3) And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him; and he was sore wounded of the archers.
(4) Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.

Saul committed suicide! Therefore, unless our opponants are ready to claim that people who commit suicide go straight to heaven (where they believe is where Samuel resides), then this argument fails miserably. Furthermore, we read in 1 Chronicles:

1 Chronicles 10:13
(13) So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it.

Note that he died "for his transgression." We dont read anywhere where saul repented of his sin of asking counsel of a familiar spirit just before he died. In fact even if he did it would not matter, because he still died committing suicide; he died in his sins!

Another strong argument is that all forms of spiritualism were strictly condemned during this time (and still is today, of course, see Deuteronomy 18:10-11, Leviticus 20:27). Since this is the case, would God then turn around and allow a witch to successfully force one of his prophets to appear during that which he had previously condemned? The point was that they couldn't really communicate with the dead, for "the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecclesiastes 9:5), therefore those spiritists were lying deceivers. This belief would also contradict this truth, which was no doubt true in the time of Saul as it was in the time of Solomon, the author of Ecclesiastes.

Already, the story of the witch of Endor makes absolutely no sense if we take it to mean that it was literally Samuel who appeared to Saul. Not only would this interpretation contradict what the Lord had promised beforehand, and contradict that fact that the dead know nothing, but it would also go against the very message of the bible, that if we die in our sins without true repentance, we will die eternally.'...Adventist Defense League