State of the Church - Fr. Peter Heers and Brother Augustine

[SingularityOne]

Great dialogue on the state of the Church

 

[ArmyMatt]

will watch later, I suspect it's pretty sobering

 

[SingularityOne]

will watch later, I suspect it's pretty sobering

Same here. I haven’t started it yet. I’m gonna watch it while I ride around tomorrow.

 

[rusmeister]

Great dialogue on the state of the Church

I've begun watching it. I have not listened much to Fr Peter, but so far I have no complaints, everything he says up to the 25-min mark is perfectly Orthodox, and even helpful in understanding some of the dividing lines that have developed. His positive attitude toward reconciliation is encouraging when it seems like everyone is falling away from the Church and each other.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

I have not listened much to Fr Peter, but so far I have no complaints, everything he says up to the 25-min mark is perfectly Orthodox

Which is exactly why so many who lean "progressive Orthodox" dislike and try to discredit him.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

Same here. I haven’t started it yet. I’m gonna watch it while I ride around tomorrow.

Excellent talk. I'm subbed to both. Highly recommend. His Orthodoxy is very sound and balanced as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Andrei D]

"progressive Orthodox"

I had to chuckle. Them, and the God fearing atheists should join up and form the Great Transcendent Fraternity of the Oxymoron (GTFO).

 

[Andrei D]

But apparently I am silly! Very silly and naive indeed! I accepted a premise in a different thread, namely that Orthodoxy is not political at least in the West. I didn't know it was as political as it gets and as progressive as it gets, at that:

https://tinyurl.com/rbp5jyej

(edited to make jump to correct time)

 

[SingularityOne]

Excellent talk. I'm subbed to both. Highly recommend. His Orthodoxy is very sound and balanced as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, Fr. Peter really has some great content. Been enjoying Brother Augustine’s content recently too. 100% going to listen to this today.

 

[Dorothea]

Love Fr. Peter. Listen to him often and read his website.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m not sure I’d politicize the folks opposed to him. I know that we had a flock of people abandon our parish during COVID after listening to him. His podcasts and videos inspired whole families to leave for 6-9 months as our priest complied with mask guidelines. That bothered me greatly. As a result, I’ve avoided his videos. Our priest did a great job working with the sheriff to keep our parish open, the Holy Mysteries available, confession, Matins, and Divine Liturgy open, and the only request was a mask. The Father Heers acolytes refused to comply and accused anyone with a mask of being faithless. They gossiped endlessly about Father, and they werent very kind or charitable. It was a bad time. So, there’s more to Father Heers detractors than being progressive liberals.

Which is exactly why so many who lean "progressive Orthodox" dislike and try to discredit him.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

If compliance with the Harlot’s wishes scandalizes the faithful, it’s hardly Fr. Peter’s fault for calling it out as innovative behavior. Don’t shoot the messenger.

“It’s just a mask.
It’s just 2 weeks.
It’s just 1 month.
It’s just 1 Pascha.
It’s just multiple spoons.
It’s just 6 feet.
It’s just a contact tracing list.
It’s just an appointment to attend church.
It’s just no hugging each other.
It’s just no fellowship.
It’s just no veneration of icons.
It’s just 10 people allowed at your wedding ceremony.
It’s just 10 people allowed at your son’s baptism.
It’s just a vaccine mandate.”

Your parish wasn’t the only one affected.

I’m not sure I’d politicize the folks opposed to him. I know that we had a flock of people abandon our parish during COVID after listening to him. His podcasts and videos inspired whole families to leave for 6-9 months as our priest complied with mask guidelines. That bothered me greatly. As a result, I’ve avoided his videos. Our priest did a great job working with the sheriff to keep our parish open, the Holy Mysteries available, confession, Matins, and Divine Liturgy open, and the only request was a mask. The Father Heers acolytes refused to comply and accused anyone with a mask of being faithless. They gossiped endlessly about Father, and they werent very kind or charitable. It was a bad time. So, there’s more to Father Heers detractors than being progressive liberals.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

So, just so we're clear, Justin, you're accusing my priest of cooperating with the evil one? You're looking at the pastoral direction of the Serbian Church of the West as diabolical and only Father Heers' interpretation as to how to proceed through a pandemic is holy and correct? You are aware that many Orthodox dioceses and bishops decided to allow masks, etc., right?

If compliance with the Harlot’s wishes scandalizes the faithful, it’s hardly Fr. Peter’s fault for calling it out as innovative behavior. Don’t shoot the messenger.

“It’s just a mask.
It’s just 2 weeks.
It’s just 1 month.
It’s just 1 Pascha.
It’s just multiple spoons.
It’s just 6 feet.
It’s just a contact tracing list.
It’s just an appointment to attend church.
It’s just no hugging each other.
It’s just no fellowship.
It’s just no veneration of icons.
It’s just 10 people allowed at your wedding ceremony.
It’s just 10 people allowed at your son’s baptism.
It’s just a vaccine mandate.”

Your parish wasn’t the only one affected.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

No need to get excited. Your parish wasn’t the only one affected.

So, just so we're clear, Justin, you're accusing my priest of cooperating with the evil one? You're looking at the pastoral direction of the Serbian Church of the West as diabolical and only Father Heers' interpretation as to how to proceed through a pandemic is holy and correct? You are aware that many Orthodox dioceses and bishops decided to allow masks, etc., right?

 

[rusmeister]

I’m not sure I’d politicize the folks opposed to him. I know that we had a flock of people abandon our parish during COVID after listening to him. His podcasts and videos inspired whole families to leave for 6-9 months as our priest complied with mask guidelines. That bothered me greatly. As a result, I’ve avoided his videos. Our priest did a great job working with the sheriff to keep our parish open, the Holy Mysteries available, confession, Matins, and Divine Liturgy open, and the only request was a mask. The Father Heers acolytes refused to comply and accused anyone with a mask of being faithless. They gossiped endlessly about Father, and they werent very kind or charitable. It was a bad time. So, there’s more to Father Heers detractors than being progressive liberals.

I appreciate what you’re saying, Gurney, and agree that seeing people leave because of this if that is indeed the reason is a concern. I further agree that a lack of charity is generally always bad.

But I do have to ask you to think about the word, ”request” that you used. It wasn’t just a request, was it? Otherwise, people could say,”No”, and it would be voluntary, which is the only real way out of these secular mandates within the Church dividing the faithful. That cannot be blamed on Fr Peter. Insofar as he’s saying that it is a real problem to have secular authorities saying what we must do and not do in our own Church, he is absolutely right, whatever else he may be wrong about.

If we use words as euphemism and try to soften the blow of that, like “request” when what is really meant is “command”, then that’s not being entirely honest, even if unintentionally.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You didn't answer my question, but instead used passive-aggressive tactics to evade it. Please answer.

No need to get excited. Your parish wasn’t the only one affected.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I know you love to dissect each and every word, Rus, so I'll be ultra clear---REQUIRED. We were required to wear masks. The choices were to either keep our parish open and keep people coming to the Holy Mysteries, or to shut down. Father opted for the former rather than the latter. To be clear, we had a host of elderly people coming to church and Father himself is a diabetic with an amputated leg and a history of health problems. Father's doctor begged him to wear a mask and to ask the people around him to do the same. The sheriff asked it as well. We complied. Nobody was behind the altar with Father apart from his sons and one altar boy. My boys were not allowed back there, and my feelings were not hurt about that. Likewise, I did not go behind the altar area either as per Father's request. As Reader, I picked up the book from a small table and would read it, again, as per his wishes.

I am not saying Father Heers directly stated we're all going to fry in hell for wearing masks nor am I blaming him for all our strife. If you read my post, I make it clear that many of our parishioners listened to him and then made decisions to not comply and wear masks. Actually, I was ok with that part, but what I was NOT ok with was their gossip about him and our parish council, etc. They spread a lot of ill will and I think much of what many of them did was scandalous in its own way trying to get attention. Am I a watcher of Father Heers? No. And I don't plan to be. Do I see a lot of people acting fanatically and pridefully that are fans of Father Heers? Yes. Can I directly blame him for the "I'm more Catholic than the Pope" holier-than-though folks I know who listen to him? No.

I'm not trying to soften any blows. I think you know that.

I appreciate what you’re saying, Gurney, and agree that seeing people leave because of this if that is indeed the reason is a concern. I further agree that a lack of charity is generally always bad.

But I do have to ask you to think about the word, ”request” that you used. It wasn’t just a request, was it? Otherwise, people could say,”No”, and it would be voluntary, which is the only real way out of these secular mandates within the Church dividing the faithful. That cannot be blamed on Fr Peter. Insofar as he’s saying that it is a real problem to have secular authorities saying what we must do and not do in our own Church, he is absolutely right, whatever else he may be wrong about.

If we use words as euphemism and try to soften the blow of that, like “request” when what is really meant is “command”, then that’s not being entirely honest, even if unintentionally.

 

[rusmeister]

No need to get excited. Your parish wasn’t the only one affected.

First of all, I generally agree with you.
But think about how you would feel if Gurney had said that first sentence to you. I think you would feel offended, and rightly so. It would be characterizing your position as merely emotional reaction - which is what you, intentionally or not, are projecting on Gurney. If we are right, we must not make ourselves wrong by failing on charity. He has reasons for thinking what he does, just as you and I do.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

Oh, but I did. Many jurisdictions complied with the Harlot’s wishes. Including yours, and mine. I even suspect the Archbishop of my jurisdiction is a double-agent of the Harlot. And notice I said Harlot, not ‘Dragon.’ Those are two-different things in the apocalypse. So yes, my beloved priest and *drumroll* yours (and many others) complied with the Harlot. It’s a bitter red pill to swallow, but to suggest things were uniquely different at your parish is...well I’ll just leave it at that.

Like I repeatedly said, yours wasn’t the only one affected.

Still, not Fr. Peter’s fault for stating the obvious.

The reason why masks are so damning (in my opinion), I was taught not to stand with my hands behind my back in the presence of God. Something about it being analogous to having something to hide from God. (Women were taught to not sit with their legs crossed at church)
Now, they REQUIRE masks at church. What’ve we to hide from God? Body language is a very real thing. Not only that, but do you really think sin starts big? No, they usually start small. Small suggestions here and there. I think that’s most of the opposition to the innovations of late. Small changes turn out to be bigger ones down the road. Some see the trees, others see the forest. I see the mask as a small ask which...*drumroll* led to bigger asks down the road: like no more iconodulia.

After speaking with the priest of another parish, I came to the conclusion that I can forgive masks as it may be a stumbling block (or not) for some, so now I carry one in my pocket to church just in case. (But it’s no longer required at my parish, we can kiss all the icons including each other)

What people did at your church listening to Fr. Peter, they did at mine listening to CNN. Many of those faces are no longer present in the congregation. Once more I reiterate: Your parish wasn’t the only one affected.

Ultimately, those choices to attend or not, to close parishes or not, to limit attendance or not, to mask up or not, etc were made by such and such people, not by Fr. Peter or by CNN. Influenced perhaps, but the choice remains with people if we are to believe in free will.

To paraphrase King Baldwin IV: You cannot shift the blame onto others for your own choices.

You didn't answer my question, but instead used passive-aggressive tactics to evade it. Please answer.

 

[Dorothea]

I personally felt some guilt and just horrible, wearing a mask in God's House, especially when His Body and Blood were brought out of the altar to receive. I found and still find it blasphemous. Like being in the presence of God offends us, that we have to wear a mask. Granted, I know that's not why masks were worn, but it didn't take away those thoughts deep within me. Unfortunately, I was weak throughout the lockdowns and until the masks were lifted. I complied and shouldn't have. My son, once he realized it wasn't right via the Elders, he never wore one in church again. He'd wait in the narthex or outside the doors before coming in for communion. I admire his strength and conviction and amount of faith. Mine is not as strong. I'm hoping it becomes so.