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Featured Stammering Lips and Other Tongues

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Minister Monardo, Sep 25, 2020.

  1. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Isaiah 1:9.

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    1 Corinthians 14:
    20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be infants,
    but in understanding be mature.
    21 In the law it is written:
    With men of other tongues and other lips
    I will speak to this people;
    And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me.

    Why does Paul quote Isaiah 28:11 here?

    Isaiah 28:
    9 Whom will he teach knowledge? And whom will he make to understand the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just drawn from the breasts?
    10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.
    11 For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people,
    12 To whom He said, This is the rest with which You may cause the weary to rest, and,
    This is the refreshing; yet they would not hear.
    13 But the word of the Lord was to them, precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little, that they might go and fall backward, and be broken and snared and caught.
     
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  2. honey badger

    honey badger i am

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    it speaks to trying to come to God by steps in ones own name or by ones own reasoning ... in picture it is a slow climb up Babyl ...
     
  3. tturt

    tturt Senior Veteran Supporter

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    "Therefore, the word of Yahweh will be to them “Do, do this, and do, do that, a rule about this and a rule about that, here a little, there a little,” in order that they will stumble backwards and be broken and captured." TPT
     
  4. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Isaiah 1:9.

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    Isaiah 6:
    9.
    And He said, “Go, and tell these people: keep on hearing, but do not understand;
    keep on seeing, but do not perceive.
    10 Make the heart of these people dull, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with
    their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and return and be healed.

    Luke 24:
    44
    And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
    45 Then He opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

    1 John 5:20. And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
     
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  5. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Isaiah 1:9.

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    Isaiah 44:18. They have not known nor understood: for He has shut their eyes,
    that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.


    Isaiah 29:
    13
    Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their
    lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by
    the precept of men:
    14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among these people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their
    prudent men shall be hid.
     
  6. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Excellent and take a look at this from the same passage as Isaiah saw the Lord(YHWH) and John declared it was Christ before the Incarnation.

    John 12:41
    These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him

    Isaiah 6:1-5
    In the year of King, Uzziah's death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called out to another and said,

    "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,,
    The whole earth is full of His glory."

    4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5 Then I said,

    5"Woe is me, for I am ruined!,
    Because I am a man of unclean lips,
    And I live among a people of unclean lips;,

    For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
     
  7. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie Supporter

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    The Corinthian church was not using the Gift of tongues properly.

    Paul points out that some 800 years before Christ, Isaiah prophesied that tongues would be used as a sign to unbelievers that we are living in the last says, but they would not understand it or believe it.

    Then Paul teaches the correct use of tongues in 1Cor. 14:22, that tongues are for a sign, not to them who believe, but to them who believe not.

    Then Paul, in the remainder of the verse tells them that Prophesying serves for the believer not the unbeliever.

    The Corinthians had it backwards.
     
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  8. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Isaiah 1:9.

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    Jeremiah 4:22. For my people are foolish, they have not known me; they are
    sottish children, and they have no understanding: they are wise to do evil, but
    to do good they have no knowledge.

    1 Corinthians 13:11. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child,
    I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
  9. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I went to a Hebrew speaking church service in Israel. There was a bilingual interpreter. I heard the man’s sermon through the woman interpreting it as if the pastor was speaking to me.
     
  10. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie Supporter

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    If you are referring to the ceasing of tongues, there are two sides to this verse.

    One is much more compelling than the other, to me that is.
     
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  11. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Isaiah 1:9.

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    I am not. I understand why my final post may have thrown you.
    I was not replying to anyone's post.

    Those were just the last two scriptures I had in my notes from this morning's
    devotional time,
    so I just posted them. :)
    I thought they went well together!
    Christian maturity is in receiving from above to edify all in the body.

    1 Corinthians 14:
    3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
    4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
    5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies
    is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets,
    that the church may receive edification.

    18
    I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;
    19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding,
    that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
    Now we are back to the OP#1.
    I would that all believers would have small group fellowship in the Holy Spirit, and
    that all would continue to be edified in praying, singing, and speaking in the Spirit.
    Tongues will cease (1 Corinthians 13:8 ), but I do not believe that time is now.
    Again, I apologize if I caused confusion.
    In Christ,
    Brother James
     
  12. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie Supporter

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    No problem here! I completely misunderstood by guessing that was your point.

    I apologize for guessing instead of asking.
     
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Perhaps you have it backwards.
    The Apostle contradicts himself in this passage. At the bottom of this post.
    First he says that tongues are a sign for unbelievers and prophecy is for believers. (vs 22)
    Then he says, if everyone speaks in tongues, an inquirer (unbeliever) will say you are out of your minds. (vs 23)
    And then he says, if everyone is prophesying, an inquirer (unbeliever) will be convicted of sin while the secrets of their heart are laid bare, exclaiming, “God is really among you!” (vs 24)

    It seems that the only way to resolve this is to consider how he is defining tongues and prophecy in this passage. There is more then one kind of tongues and prophecy.
    1) Tongues that are addressed to the whole congregation. (preferably with interpretation)
    2) Personal tongues. Speaking only to God (1 Corinthians 14:2)
    3) Prophecy that is addressed to the whole congregation.
    4) Personal prophecy. Addressed to an individual.

    1 Corinthians 14:22-25
    Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
     
  14. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Isaiah 1:9.

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    The apparent contradiction is resolved not by defining different types of prophesying and tongues,
    but by clarifying correct and incorrect application of tongues in the fellowship.
    V. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may
    receive edifying.

    V. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

    So if someone speaks in an unknown tongue and another person interprets so that all are edified,
    this will be a sign to an unbeliever, that The Spirit of the Lord is speaking through them.
    If, on the other hand, everyone is just speaking in tongues at the same time, they are all only
    directing there attention to their own edification, and an outsider who observes their activity will
    think that they are mad.
    Correct way-sign to unbeliever.
    Incorrect way-you be mad, I pity the fools.
    By making this clarification, there should be no contradiction, and prophesying will fall into place,
    again, if done correctly, in an orderly fashion, showing the Spirit of the Lord is present.
     
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  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Do you agree that there are more than one kind of tongues?
     
  16. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Isaiah 1:9.

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    Of course. The tower of Babel will not be undone until Zephaniah 3:9
    Any of them can be interpreted by the Holy Spirit in fellowship, by the gift of interpreting tongues.
     
  17. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie Supporter

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    There is no contradiction. Tongues is an unknown language to the speaker and the congregation, it requires an interpreter to be present in the congregation.

    If everyone in the congregation is speaking in tongues who can interpret, who can understand?

    Prophesy is the common language understood by all in the church. This is not unknown tongues. The unbelievers would hear and understand.

    What Paul is saying makes perfect sense to me!
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Here is what I mean.

    ive Different Kinds of Tongues
    1)
    Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
    2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
    3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
    4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
    5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Scriptural Support

    > Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God

    Romans 8:26
    In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

    > Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit

    Ephesians 6:18
    And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.

    > Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation

    1 Corinthians 14:5
    I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

    > Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity

    1 Corinthians 14:15
    So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

    > Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)

    No scriptural example for this except the outpouring at Pentecost.
    But some have made the valid point that the tongues spoken were not evangelistic, but rather praise and worship. The final effect of it was evangelistic, but not the tongues themselves. And I don't personally accept the interpretive hearing theory.
     
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  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    See post #18 above for a better understanding of the different kinds of tongues.
    There is nothing wrong with speaking in tongues without interpretation at church if you are not addressing the whole congregation.
     
  20. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie Supporter

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    The subject matter and problem Paul is addressing IS the whole congregation.
     
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