Stake, Not Cross

[Hieronymus]

Judaic means "pertaining to Judaism." Orthodox Jews do not believe in Trinitarianism, Hell, cross, Sunday Sabbath, or other such things. Now I ask you, are you a Judaic Christian, or are you a Pagan Christian? Pagans believe in Trinitarianism, Hell, cross, Sunday Sabbath, and other such things.

Jews believed in more than 1 person being YHWH Elohim.
They left that idea (which is clearly based on Scripture) when Christianity developed.

 

[CherubRam]

Jews believed in more than 1 person being YHWH Elohim.
They left that idea (which is clearly based on Scripture) when Christianity developed.

That is not true in Orthodox Judaism. Only Pagan Jews believe God is more than one person.

 

[Hieronymus]

That is not true in Orthodox Judaism. Only Pagan Jews believe God is more than one person.

No, before Christ Jews acknowledged there were more than 1 person = YHWH Elohim.
I mean, just read the Tenach, and you'll see that there's the Name, the Angel of GOD, and situations where God refers to Himself as another 'person', things like that.
Orthodox Judaism of today indeed does not acknowledge this anymore.
From what i understand, this is not acknowledged anymore since Christianity became a large religion.

 

[tampasteve]

That is not true in Orthodox Judaism. Only Pagan Jews believe God is more than one person.

No, before Christ Jews acknowledged there were more than 1 person = YHWH Elohim.
I mean, just read the Tenach, and you'll see that there's the Name, the Angel of GOD, and situations where God refers to Himself as another 'person', things like that.
Orthodox Judaism of today indeed does not acknowledge this anymore.
From what i understand, this is not acknowledged anymore since Christianity became a large religion.

Since we are using the capital "O" Orthodox Judaism, CR would be correct. Orthodox Judaism as it is does not believe in any sort of "more than one person YHWH"; it is staunchly monotheist. Orthodox Judaism is the current "denomination" (if one can call it that) in Judaism, along with others such as Reform, Conservative, etc. This would be akin to the Sadducee and Pharisees, etc. of Yeshuas time. When we use a small "o" orthodox Judaism it would be a different meaning.

Now, what I think Hieronymus means (and correct me if I am wrong), is that ancient Judaism did have room for more thoughts on different expressions of G-d. It is pretty well documented in the archaeology and some writings that in the past these beliefs were present in some form. We have had discussions on the Memra before and how it could be interpreted as such. Also, archaeology is clear that in some Israelite temples YHWH was worshiped alongside other expressions of Him. This practice was stamped out around the time of Josiah's reforms.

 

[Heber Book List]

Since we are using the capital "O" Orthodox Judaism, CR would be correct. Orthodox Judaism as it is does not believe in any sort of "more than one person YHWH"; it is staunchly monotheist. Orthodox Judaism is the current "denomination" (if one can call it that) in Judaism, along with others such as Reform, Conservative, etc. This would be akin to the Sadducee and Pharisees, etc. of Yeshuas time. When we use a small "o" orthodox Judaism it would be a different meaning.

Now, what I think Hieronymus means (and correct me if I am wrong), is that ancient Judaism did have room for more thoughts on different expressions of G-d. It is pretty well documented in the archaeology and some writings that in the past these beliefs were present in some form. We have had discussions on the Memra before and how it could be interpreted as such. Also, archaeology is clear that in some Israelite temples YHWH was worshiped alongside other expressions of Him. This practice was stamped out around the time of Josiah's reforms.

Read: Vermes, G. Christian beginnings from Nazareth to Nicaea AD 30-325. Penguin Books, London: 2013. In particular the first chapter - 'Charismatic Judaism from Moses to Jesus'.

 

[tampasteve]

Read: Vermes, G. Christian beginnings from Nazareth to Nicaea AD 30-325. Penguin Books, London: 2013. In particular the first chapter - 'Charismatic Judaism from Moses to Jesus'.

Sounds like an interesting read....can you possibly give some insight from it for this discussion?

 

[JackRT]

How was he then of the tribe of Binyamin? Philippians 3:5

I find this a little problematic since the Tribe of Benjamin disappeared from history some six centuries prior.

 

[tampasteve]

Edit:
deleted for redundant information better stated by Yeshua HaDerekh below.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I find this a little problematic since the Tribe of Benjamin disappeared from history some six centuries prior.

Binyamin, Levi and Yehudah stayed in the southern Kingdom of Yehudah. I am sure Paul had either written or oral tradition or both for his lineage.

 

[Heber Book List]

Sounds like an interesting read....can you possibly give some insight from it for this discussion?

Geza writes about the charismatic movement in the Tanach - of the miracles that were performed, of the prophetic utterances, of the amazing actions that took place, rain coming, and stopping etc, of the healings, of raising from the dead etc. Things that, nowadays, seem to be restricted to Charismatics and credited to the Holy Spirit. They have always been a part of G_d's work, whether today or in the Tanach or the Christian Testament - same G_d, same works. The H Spirit has been at work for millennia!

 

[tampasteve]

Geza writes about the charismatic movement in the Tanach - of the miracles that were performed, of the prophetic utterances, of the amazing actions that took place, rain coming, and stopping etc, of the healings, of raising from the dead etc. Things that, nowadays, seem to be restricted to Charismatics and credited to the Holy Spirit. They have always been a part of G_d's work, whether today or in the Tanach or the Christian Testament - same G_d, same works.

OK, thanks! That does sound interesting. I am also fascinated by the other "miracle workers of Galilee" that were in the 30 or so years around the time of Yeshua. Most interesting to me are Honi ha-M'agel and Hanina ben Dosa.

 

[Open Heart]

The round disk shapes represent gods and are attached to the poles. banners are often attached to the cross beam.

okay

 

[Open Heart]

Judaic means "pertaining to Judaism." Orthodox Jews do not believe in Trinitarianism, Hell, cross, Sunday Sabbath, or other such things.

Orthodox Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah either.

 

[CherubRam]

Orthodox Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah either.

The reason they do not believe Yahshua is the Messiah, is because of all the Anti-Orthodox Judaism added to the New Testament. If we had a New Testament where the Catholics had not added to it, many Orthodox Jews would believe Yahshua was the Messiah.

 

[Open Heart]

The reason they do not believe Yahshua is the Messiah, is because of all the Anti-Orthodox Judaism added to the New Testament. If we had a New Testament where the Catholics had not added to it, many Orthodox Jews would believe Yahshua was the Messiah.

It's irrelevant why. The point is that you listed a bunch of Christian stuff that the Orthodox don't believe, and I added that they also don't believe the Christian teaching that Yeshua is the Mashiach. IOW the Orthodox simply point blank reject Christian stuff, including what you believe.

 

[Lulav]