Staff/members discussion thread. Report-free.

[Chaplain David]

I think it'd be best to stay away from "you" statements when the meaning attached to it is negative. We're not supposed to attack individuals, but rather tackle and work with ideas and the problem/discussion at hand.

It generally is in my opinion but sometimes it's hard not to use you. But what's worse is tagging a judgement on at the end. Example: you really complain a lot, or I just don't understand why you are so judgmental, or I have to really wonder about your motives.

 

[Chaplain David]

Here is a really good example. You see some posters have said that they feel they cannot talk about their bad marital experiences. But I really wish they would accept that it is not their experiences that are the cause of frustration. It is the misrepresentation of others posts and the distortion of their views.

But the other problem is that they don't see that they are doing it, or at least say that they don't.

So I have a simple set of requests.
1. I'd like for men who have done them no harm to not be characterized as approvers of marital rape, abuse, emotional neglect, inappropriate content users, and neglectful of scripture.

2. I'd like for women who are trying to follow a biblical model of mutual submission in marriage to not be subject to being accused of naïveté and being judgmental because they talk about biblical values.

This is why: if this were a secular forum I'd say who cares. But the above is not arguing with views, it's basically attacking the credibility of the poster. It has to stop. Personally I find that there is little general sense of edification here. So it's perfectly fine for someone to come into a thread and say "My marriage sucked, what about THAT"? But it's another thing altogether for people to feel they have the right to throw out accusations about the character of people or their marriages over and over again. By refusing to see this as a problem, mods and admins are contributing to it.

Brother McScribe, not that these are bad ideas, but what I'm trying to get everyone to concentrate on is their own, personal posting styles. So what I ask is what can you do to improve upon your own posting style (or quit doing) to make it better. You can use examples of things that you've posted or ask questions about how to word things better. See what I mean?

 

[ex-pat]

It can also help in many respects if we preface ideas that are based on our own religious beliefs with just that. A really good example of that is a thread on birth control in marriage. It's one thing to state that the Catholic Church believes ___________, and after studying this viewpoint the poster believes _______________, and quite another to say Well, I'M Catholic, and ~I~ don't believe _______________. (I'm doing this from invention, without any attempt to quote a poster, so please forgive me if I have done so inadvertently). The second way of doing so merely annoys everyone out there who DOES believe ____________, and gets into a war about picking and choosing and sexual abuse and abortion and it goes downhill from there. If a poster remembers that it's one thing to state his or her own mind, and not to act as if the church they and others posting may belong to is wrong, and posts accordingly, perhaps people won;t get defensive?

Again, I'm singling out no one, as I invented my scenario, and I only chose the Catholic Church as the church in my example because they have an easily recognized pro-life platform, so I felt that people would recognize the issues that trigger a downward spiral that I mentioned, not for any other reason.

Does this make sense? It's just that rarely do we get posters who stick to exactly what their Church says...most add their personal experiences, so there's a lot of variance, then we see people defending their Church, or defending their personal feelings, or just being defensive.

 

[McScribe]

Chaplain, with all due respect, do you not notice how most of the people I'm referring to rarely post in here, and if they do they basically stand at your virtual shoulder and day "Yeah!" ? There are some cases where something is simply wrong. Jesus and his Apostles often used sharper language than we use here when someone attempted to degrade the meaning of God's Word. We are perfectly willing, most of us, to soften rather than sharpen, but I think it is needed to go beyond the personal concern with misrepresentations when not only do a group of people cast such aspersions but an Administrator approves of what they are saying.

Paul and Stephen spoke up when they were wrongly accused. How can you accept that a particular group of online people can attack the character of people for speaking truth? Like not arguing with the theology but attacking their character?

 

[Chaplain David]

It can also help in many respects if we preface ideas that are based on our own religious beliefs with just that. A really good example of that is a thread on birth control in marriage. It's one thing to state that the Catholic Church believes ___________, and after studying this viewpoint the poster believes _______________, and quite another to say Well, I'M Catholic, and ~I~ don't believe _______________. (I'm doing this from invention, without any attempt to quote a poster, so please forgive me if I have done so inadvertently). The second way of doing so merely annoys everyone out there who DOES believe ____________, and gets into a war about picking and choosing and sexual abuse and abortion and it goes downhill from there. If a poster remembers that it's one thing to state his or her own mind, and not to act as if the church they and others posting may belong to is wrong, and posts accordingly, perhaps people won;t get defensive?

Again, I'm singling out no one, as I invented my scenario, and I only chose the Catholic Church as the church in my example because they have an easily recognized pro-life platform, so I felt that people would recognize the issues that trigger a downward spiral that I mentioned, not for any other reason.

Does this make sense? It's just that rarely do we get posters who stick to exactly what their Church says...most add their personal experiences, so there's a lot of variance, then we see people defending their Church, or defending their personal feelings, or just being defensive.

So you like to stick with your churches doctrine pretty much?

 

[Chaplain David]

Chaplain, with all due respect, do you not notice how most of the people I'm referring to rarely post in here, and if they do they basically stand at your virtual shoulder and day "Yeah!" ? There are some cases where something is simply wrong. Jesus and his Apostles often used sharper language than we use here when someone attempted to degrade the meaning of God's Word. We are perfectly willing, most of us, to soften rather than sharpen, but I think it is needed to go beyond the personal concern with misrepresentations when not only do a group of people cast such aspersions but an Administrator approves of what they are saying.

Paul and Stephen spoke up when they were wrongly accused. How can you accept that a particular group of online people can attack the character of people for speaking truth? Like not arguing with the theology but attacking their character?

You have ignored my former post brother. We are not talking about what the other posters are doing wrong but what we do wrong or could do better. (plus what I said before)

what I'm trying to get everyone to concentrate on is their own, personal posting styles. So what I ask is what can you do to improve upon your own posting style (or quit doing) to make it better. You can use examples of things that you've posted or ask questions about how to word things better. See what I mean?

 

[ex-pat]

So you like to stick with your churches doctrine pretty much?

If my personal opinion differs,I try to remember to state it's my personal opinion, in the hopes that my personal sinfulness will not be set down to "Those Orthodox! I heard someone say the other day that ________. They're all insane!"

Mind you, I've also studied comparative religions, so I'm also comfortable offering advice within someone else's tradition at times, but when I do, I preface it with "This is just MY opinion based on ___________. it seems to me that ______ might work. Check with your pastor."

I try. I fail. I repent, get up, and try again. And that, friend Sacerdote, IS very much my Church's doctrine.

 

[McScribe]

I didn't ignore your post. I just don't believe it's going to work.

 

[Chaplain David]

I didn't ignore your post. I just don't believe it's going to work.

It will work. People will learn to post better.

 

[ex-pat]

It will work. People will learn to post better.

It's already working He said "I don't think it will work", not "That will never work". An excellent example of improved posting language!

 

[Chaplain David]

It's already working He said "I don't think it will work", not "That will never work". An excellent example of improved posting language!

 

[chaz345]

You have ignored my former post brother. We are not talking about what the other posters are doing wrong but what we do wrong or could do better. (plus what I said before)

So what, in your opinion, should be done about people who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge their contributions to the issues around here? Note that McScribe can't be included in that group as he has, many times stated what he feels he does to contribute less than positively. As have I.

 

[Chaplain David]

So what, in your opinion, should be done about people who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge their contributions to the issues around here? Note that McScribe can't be included in that group as he has, many times stated what he feels he does to contribute less than positively. As have I.

That is a good question and I would answer it but we're talking about our individual posting styles and how to improve them. If you read back some posts you'll see. Good to see you.

 

[FaithPrevails]

Here is a really good example. You see some posters have said that they feel they cannot talk about their bad marital experiences. But I really wish they would accept that it is not their experiences that are the cause of frustration. It is the misrepresentation of others posts and the distortion of their views.

But the other problem is that they don't see that they are doing it, or at least say that they don't.

So I have a simple set of requests.
1. I'd like for men who have done them no harm to not be characterized as approvers of marital rape, abuse, emotional neglect, inappropriate content users, and neglectful of scripture.

2. I'd like for women who are trying to follow a biblical model of mutual submission in marriage to not be subject to being accused of naïveté and being judgmental because they talk about biblical values.

This is why: if this were a secular forum I'd say who cares. But the above is not arguing with views, it's basically attacking the credibility of the poster. It has to stop. Personally I find that there is little general sense of edification here. So it's perfectly fine for someone to come into a thread and say "My marriage sucked, what about THAT"? But it's another thing altogether for people to feel they have the right to throw out accusations about the character of people or their marriages over and over again. By refusing to see this as a problem, mods and admins are contributing to it.

 

[FaithPrevails]

It's already working He said "I don't think it will work", not "That will never work". An excellent example of improved posting language!

 

[ex-pat]

So what, in your opinion, should be done about people who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge their contributions to the issues around here? Note that McScribe can't be included in that group as he has, many times stated what he feels he does to contribute less than positively. As have I.

Chaz, I think Sacerdote (and the other mods) are saying that posters concerned about how someone is posting on a thread should request 911 mediation. If staff then gently points out to them each time that some editing is needed, and helps the poster use less confrontational words, the poster cannot fail to notice that his posts are being worked with! Hopefully, it is then that they'll metaphorically scratch their heads and say "Gee...maybe I need to work on this...that's the third time this week Sacerdote has said something to me about editing my posts".

If, after the "third time" no such metaphorical head-scratching is happening, then small forum time outs will be applied.

We are supposed to forgive seven times seventy, and while we may feel that some folk are on seven times seventy-ONE, we need to remember that that was not a literal number, but an allusion to forever. Let's try to forgive, and let the mediation take its course, and see, as we post with a spirit of forgiveness, if others can't also come to post their ideas in peace, not defensive hostility.

 

[McScribe]

That is a good question and I would answer it but we're talking about our individual posting styles and how to improve them. If you read back some posts you'll see. Good to see you.

One poster brought up her concern that her experiences are not considered valid just a few posts ago and you recognized the validity of her concerns and reassured her. That was off topic but you did right to reassure her. I have brought up the legitimate concern that some of us have that is about just and fair treatment. We consistently get no answer. You want cooperation but to be blunt when you and the other mods and admins can promise no just and fair treatment what is the point of this exercise in etiquette?

 

[Conservativation]

It will work. People will learn to post better.

The people writing here now could post nothing but John Denver songs and it wont help. This is blinders chaplain, Im sorry it is some kind of blinders.

 

[Chaplain David]

Seriously folks, I've logged thousands of hours of group learning sessions time and know how to stick to a topic. Some things have been brought up that need attention. But for now the topic is as I stated this morning and will quote for you below. Let's give it a whirl. Some have already.

Anybody want to talk about how to improve your posting style - yours not someone else's. You can take examples of what you've posted, bring them in here and I can give some pointers. The point is to be able to say what you want to say, but in ways that are

• addressing the post and not the poster,

• not overreacting to perceived threats or flames,

• posting in kindness & helpfulness,

• and naturally posting within our guidelines and rules.

 

[FaithPrevails]

What *I* can do is use the ignore feature. The problems with that are:

I may end up only being able to see half the thread.

You can still see posts if someone on ignore is being quoted by another member.


I don't want others to feel as if they don't have the right or are not welcome to post here. I don't share a lot of details publicly for personal safety reasons, but I do have experiences in my past that are not that different than some of the people who post here who have troubles in their marriages. So, I do sympathize/empathize and pray for those members regularly. I know what it's like to live day to day like that.

Some of the threads almost end up seeming like they have split personality disorder b/c there end up being two very different conversations going on, though. That is difficult to overcome no matter how *I* change what I am doing, since I can only change me and no one else.

If that part of the problem can't be addressed by staff (instead of just closing down a thread), then I am sorry to say that I don't hold much hope for this sub-forum at this point.