St. Lazarus the "One Whom Jesus Loved" - Possible He Wrote the 4th Gospel?

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Regarding this point, see "Keener" on this subject. As I'm not privy to the whole work, let me walk you through it:

Link>See Inside>Table of Contents>2C: Papias and John the Elder>P. 96.
Already know of Keener/his work (as well as the addressments of his argument as it concerns Papias and John the Elder) - as he was noted earlier in discussion, as well as several others.





Thus, there's no need to walk through assuming others aren't aware of the argument

Lazarus does nothing of the sort. The author identifies Lazarus as "the one whom Jesus loved". The author later identifies HIMSELF as the "disciple whom Jesus loved." A much better examination of early external evidence needs to be shown in order to accept any of this. For example, the link posted at the top of this page posits 'John the Elder' as a possible author. This merely muddies the waters even more.
The author never says at any point that Lazarus and Himself are separate - as on ALL occassions the term "disciple whom Jesus loved" is used in 3rd person rather than saying "I" - BE IT John 13:23 or John 19:26 or John 21:7. One needs to do a better examination of internal evidence (as well as the external evidence with regards to John having a Galileean background while the cultural context/stories within the 4th Gospel have a Jerusalem/Judean viewpoint) in order to accept any real rebuttal - and claiming that the John the Elder character was a possible writer for the book of John already goes in line with the debates the Early Church had on the subject. Thus it is only muddying water if one already assumes they did not make it muddy to begin with - or assumes their viewpoint was the most clear.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ImaginaryDay

We Live Here
Mar 24, 2012
4,200
791
Fawlty Towers
✟30,199.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Separated
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Gxg (G²);66547310 said:

Fair enough. There are so many links and blogs posted in this thread that I figured it needed repeating. Especially as it concerned your wish to keep things tied in to the OP and providing other evidence besides my say-so.

The author never says at any point that Lazarus and Himself are separate - as on ALL occassions the term "disciple whom Jesus loved" is used in 3rd person rather than saying "I" - BE IT John 13:23 or John 19:26 or John 21:7. One needs to do a better examination of internal evidence...

I have done an examination based on the evidence you've posted. I reject it.

(as well as the external evidence with regards to John having a Galileean background while the cultural context/stories within the 4th Gospel have a Jerusalem/Judean viewpoint) in order to accept any real rebuttal - and claiming that the John the Elder character was a possible writer for the book of John already goes in line with the debates the Early Church had on the subject.

Keener does an excellent job addressing this as well, based on external evidence - addressing all the problem points you mention. I suggest you give his analysis another look.

Thus it is only muddying water if one already assumes they did not make it muddy to begin with - or assumes their viewpoint was the most clear.

Stating at one point in the thread it might have been Lazarus, and now positing John the Elder is muddying enough...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Radagast
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Fair enough. There are so many links and blogs posted in this thread that I figured it needed repeating. Especially as it concerned your wish to keep things tied in to the OP and providing other evidence besides my say-so.
Of course - and I appreciate taking the time to give the reference.
I have done an examination based on the evidence you've posted. I reject it.
That's fine that you feel such, as others have done the same with examining the evidence and coming to differing conclusions. If one wants to agree to disagree, by all means. For I've gone differently on the matter before.
Keener does an excellent job addressing this as well, based on external evidence - addressing all the problem points you mention. I suggest you give his analysis another look.
Saw Keener's argument - a lot of the arguments didn't really address the matter in-depth and some of them gave mention to the issue without really covering it. But he had good points.
Stating at one point in the thread it might have been Lazarus, and now positing John the Elder is muddying enough...
Seeing that those issues were debated in antiquity - in the same way they debated the authorship of some of the Epistles and the Gospels - one must always keep in mind that they cannot go in assuming all things were ever clear from the jump since it was never that simple. For no one knows for certain who wrote the 4th Gospel and others have always been brought as possibilities.

As it concerns those in antiquity who did debate the issue, we already see (among the Church Fathers) where d the Johannine epistles where (prior to the third century) there was no dispute of apostolic authorship until the bishop of Alexandria, Dionysius (200-265 A.D.) became the first to raise questions about the apostle John being the author, making his claim on the writing style and the lack of an apostolic claim in the book being reason to suppose that John the Elder (Presbyter) was the author rather than John the apostle. Dionysius, who studied under Origen, also denied the teaching of a literal Millennium(which Dionysius believed John the Apostle - with Dionysius feeling that Revelation was actually written by “John the Elder”(Ecclesiastical History,3.39) - and as we already have the other person of great influence against the belief that the apostle John wrote the book of Revelation being Eusebius of Caesarea (c 256-339 AD). His great work Ecclesiastical History (The History of the Church), we have to keep in mind that it was not a universal to believe John had to have written the book - more shared in Dictionary of Christian Biography and Literature to the End of the Sixth Century A.D., with an Account of the Principal Sects and Heresies. - Christian Classics Ethereal Library or The Elder John, Papias, Irenæus, Eusebius and the Syriac Translator - as well as the following:

  • St. John At Ephesus - BiblicalStudies.org.uk
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I admit some of your points in the last post are logical.
Cool to know
I researched and Thomas is a fisherman, though.
Curious as to where the research came from - as I have heard of the theory, although I know others have noted that Thomas may have also been a fishermen. ..which if he was, cool. That would still leave a number of others who weren't (i.e. Simeon the Zealot, Matthew the Tax-Collector, etc.).
I didn't deny Lazarus and Jesus were connected. :) But the synoptics don't show a close relationship between them like his inner circle of three, for example. I wonder how a man who supposedly was so important to Jesus isn't even mentioned in the synoptics. :confused:
I don't see where Cleophas in Luke 24 was mentioned in the other Gospels besides that account - but that doesn't take away from his importance. The same goes for others present in one text that were not present in another book. If we go into it assuming there was some kind of golden rule for how many times someone HAS to be mentioned in order to show relationship, we can end up missing the ways letters/writings were written organically and not with the same emphasis at all points.

On the issue, some good presentations that may aid on the subject:

Did Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John actually author the gospel accounts? - YouTube

Does the Gospel of John hold any historical value? - YouTube

11. Johannine Christianity: The Gospel - YouTube

12. Johannine Christianity: The Letters - YouTube

 
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Site Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,821
9,817
✟312,047.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Gxg (G²);66547424 said:
Seeing that those issues were debated in antiquity

Well, they weren't, actually. The authorship of some books was debated, but there was a consensus from the very beginning that John wrote the 4th gospel.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ~Anastasia~
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
John was written at the end of the first century to the early part of the second. That's assuming it was written all at once. J
A very interesting read on that specific point:



On the subject of how others from the first generation (if dead) would still have had disciples in 2nd/3rd generations whom had information given to them by the the first generation and thus similarities.

On a side note, as it was noted earlier by yourself (#148 and #156 ) on when the Gospel of John was indeed written later, it tends to come up that claiming such is off due to over-focusing on the subject of what's known as P52 (Papayrus), which was discovered decades ago and used by others to show that the Gospel of John had already made its way to Egypt early on. However, whenever people do this, it's a failure to remember that P52 is but a small fragment and not really useful as a witness to the form of the Fourth Gospel in it's "first Edition." Of course, if it were a complete gospel it could tell us much about the later redactions and interpolations to the canonical John - even though it is still important in the sense that it witnesses to the idea that the 4th Gospel existed in the very early second century, with its existence in Egypt meaning that there was time for the letter to have been spread by many Christians throughout the Roman Empire in differing parts. But that alone does nothing to really dispute the fact that there's no evidence showing 100% that St. John the Apostle made it.

For other references:



As wisely pointed out in one of the aforementioned articles on why it's unwise for others to jump on P52:

..The date of the earliest New Testament papyri is nearly always based on palaeographical criteria. A consensus among papyrologists, palaeographers and New Testament scholars is presented in the edition of NESTLE–ALAND, 1994. In the last twenty years several New Testament scholars (THIEDE, COMFORT–BARRETT, 1999, 2001 and JAROŠ, 2006) have argued for an earlier date of most of these texts. The present article analyzes the date of the earliest New Testament papyri on the basis of comparative palaeography and a clear distinction between different types of literary scripts. There are no first-century New Testament papyri and only very few papyri can be attributed to the (second half of the) second century. It is only in the third and fourth centuries that New Testament manuscripts become more common, but here too the dates proposed by COMFORT–BARRETT, 1999, 2001, and JAROŠ, 2006 are often too early.

...“… The presumed dating of P52 to the first half of the second century has been called “sensational” and seems untenable. One significant argument against the early dating of P52 is that the fragment was part of a codex, or book, rather than a scroll, and there are few examples of such books in existence at such an early date. Moreover, in a fairly recent paleographical study published in the Archiv für Papyrusforschung 35 (1989), German scholar Andreas Schmidt suggested a date for P52 of 170 AD/CE +/- 25 years…”

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Site Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,821
9,817
✟312,047.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0
Oct 14, 2014
197
39
Portugal
✟17,323.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Do you consider "the other disciple" and "the disciple whom Jesus loved" the same person?

Because it seems like Lazarus wasn't often with them, if Jesus acknowledged he was sick just when he was near Jerusalem...unless I'm not seeing it right.

Also, the church fathers, and the Muratorian Fragment, talk about a John who wrote the fourth gospel, but which John?

The fourth Gospel is that of John, one of the disciples. When his fellow-disciples and bishops entreated him, he said, "Fast ye now with me for the space of three days, and let us recount to each other whatever may be revealed to each of us." On the same night it was revealed to Andrew, one of the apostles, that John should narrate all things in his own name as they called them to min

If this John is the apostle why call him just a disciple, while calling Andrew an apostle? :confused::scratch:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
And as another noted (for another brief reference):




(1) If John 18:15-18 is talking about an actual relationship with the high priest, then is it necessary to conclude that the chief priests would have known of the relationship as well, or even took part of it? Several commentaries I've read said that this trial in the passage is an informal one in the high priest's room, not necessarily with the chief priests present. Maybe the high priest wasn't aware of the plot to kill Lazarus. I don't know...my knowledge is limited on such questions and subjects of trials and the Sanhedrin.

The 2nd option seems more plausible to me:
(2) John 18 isn't talking about a relationship with Annas (or Caiaphas), but rather just stating that Annas knew who Lazarus was (of course! he was a celebrity). Perhaps he was let in as a witness to the things Jesus did, and since he was so close to Jesus throughout his ministry, he (Lazarus) could be questioned on the subject, and maybe even put on trial himself. If Lazarus is the author of John, we know of his extreme loyalty, boldness, and braveness. He probably wouldn't have thought twice about getting into the high priest's room to 'back up' Jesus despite the threat it posed on his own person.




Lazaros.jpg


johnwho-646x323.png



__________________


Really enjoyed this presentation on Lazarus that I came across recently, especially in regards to sharing on how Lazarus was most likely a priest:

 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Gxg (G²);66506157 said:
St. Lazarus the "One Whom Jesus Loved" - Possible He Wrote the 4th Gospel?
I too believe it was Lazarus...
Btw, Merry Christmas to all!

I also believe it is possible for Lazarus to be the one.
He was the only one Jesus raised from the dead after being entombed for more than 3 days [same amount of time those mysterious 2 witnesses lay on the street in Revelation 11]

Ezekiel 37:10
So I prophesied as He commanded me and a breath/spirit came into them and they lived and they stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
Revelation 11:11

John 11:
39 Jesus is saying "take away ye!" the stone. Is saying to Him Martha, the sister of the one having deceased, "Lord, already he stinking, for it is fourth-day
43 And these saying, to a great Voice He cries-out "Lazarus, hither out!"

Revelation 11:11

Reve 11:
11 And after the three and half days a breath of life from GOD entered in them and they stand upon their feet and fear great fall upon the ones observing them.
Ezekiel 37:10
12 And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!".......

I actually created a thread on this very topic some years back for those who might be interested in perusing it.

Who was the Disciple that Jesus Loved
Who is the Disciple that Jesus loved in John

Disciple whom Jesus loved, author of the fourth gospel: Lazarus v John
THE BIBLE VERSUS TRADITION

The Jury Summation


This study presented two cases: the case as to why the Apostle John was not “the disciple whom Jesus loved”, the author of the fourth gospel, and the case for why that author was most likely Lazarus – all with God’s word being the only authority cited. Below is a summary to help you weigh the evidence so you can render a verdict. (All of the verses were quoted earlier, so they will not be noted here.)..........................

In Conclusion
Most of us bought the idea that John was the author of the gospel that bears his name because:
  • This is what we have been told
  • It has been called this for a long time
  • This is what ‘all’ the scholars seem to say
  • The gospel we read has this ‘title’ added to it
  • Etc.

These might seem like separate arguments but, in fact, the same mistaken assumption underlies them all. They all rely on a non-Bible source, i.e., trusting someone else’s judgment. These ‘reasons’ don’t require us to search the scriptures; rather, they rely on someone else to have already done this job.............


Lazarus is also mentioned in the parable of Luke 16
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN

...................................
images




.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I actually created a thread on this very topic some years back for those who might be interested in perusing it.

Who was the Disciple that Jesus Loved
Who is the Disciple that Jesus loved in John\



.
The thread you made was already referenced earlier (#7 ). One can always build up that thread on their own since this thread was/is already happening here.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
Apr 17, 2006
16,461
1,919
Minnesota
✟19,953.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
St. Lazarus the "One Whom Jesus Loved" - Possible He Wrote the 4th Gospel?


Concerning the issue, I was made aware of something that another individual noted on the issue of who authored the Book of John - in regards to St. Lazarus.

lazarus%2Bresurrection%2B18th%2Bcent.jpg


lazarus.jpg

One prominent scholar in the world of NT Studies - known as Ben Witherington - had a very insightful thesis on the issue of what Lazarus, which others can discover if going here to Ben Witherington: Was Lazarus the Beloved Disciple?

Ben Witherington has always been one of my favorite authors - very astute when it comes to his analysis of Scripture and Biblical history....and one of the individuals coming heavily against much of the Primative Restorationist camps saying all aspects of Apostolic Christianity/Ancient Church are automatically "pagan"...

But on his analysis, I thought it was definitely fascinating to consider when thinking on the ways that it's assumed "the disciple whom Jesus loved" somehow connected with John. And I think Ben Witherington has the strongest case present on why Lazarus is to be considered. For Witherington argues, largely from internal evidence, that Lazarus was the "beloved disciple" in the Fourth Gospel and was responsible for writing what would be equated to the "first draft" of the book. I like considering the fact that Lazarus resolves A LOT of problems with the text since it would explain the heavy focus on Jerusalem in the Book of John and relative ignorance of Galilee as well (as Galilee is right outside of Jerusalem) - and it would explain the omission of the transfiguration and garden prayer scenes that are present in the other stories. Moreover, it would explain the reasons why it was assumed that the Beloved Disciple would not die (John 21)—because he had already once been brought back from the dead by Jesus. In light of where there has been continual use of the phrase “the disciple whom Jesus loved” (John 13:23-25, 19:26-27, 20:1-10, 21:1-25), we have to acknowledge the high significance of where John 11:5 specifically states that Jesus loved Lazarus.

I liked how another summed it up, as seen in the following (for brief excerpt):


Firstly, the beloved disciple is never equated with John the son of Zebedee in the fourth Gospel. Instead, the sons of Zebedee are mentioned in John 21.2 do not seem to be equated with the beloved disciple. Secondly, the apostle John was, like Jesus’ other disciples, a Galilean. However, the fourth Gospel includes only one of the major Galilean miracles which the synoptics include (the feeding of the 5000 in John 6). If the beloved disciple was an eyewitness from Galilee, we would expect more of Jesus’ Galilean miracles to be included. Thirdly, in the synoptic gospels, all of the twelve abandon Jesus at his crucifixion. However, in John, we are told that the beloved disciple was present at the crucifixion. If John (one of the twelve) and the beloved disciple are the same, then we have to solve the discrepancy. If, however, the beloved disciple was Lazarus, not one of the twelve, then the discrepancy disappears. Fourthly, the first appearance of an expression similar to “the disciple that Jesus loved” appears in John 11 when Jesus is told: “he whom you love is ill” (Jn. 11.2). This is a reference not to the apostle John, but to Lazarus. If this is a precursor to “the disciple that Jesus loved” then it would suggest that this beloved disciple is in fact Lazarus, and not John. Fifthly, in John 18, it seems that the beloved disciple is known by the high priest. This would be highly unlikely if the beloved disciple was a Galilean. Rather, this suggests that this disciples was well known in the Jerusalem area. Lazarus lived in Bethany, which was just by Jerusalem. It would make more sense for this disciple to be Lazarus if the high priest knew him.

Sixthly, Lazarus as the beloved disciple could help to explain the incredibly high christology of John. If you had been dead for 4 days and then raised by Jesus, that would change your worldview in a very dramatic way. This could account for the boldness with which the fourth Gospel proclaims Jesus as God, as opposed to the more cryptic way the synoptics suggest it.


Other great places for discussion:








There has been ongoing debate on the issue that has continued to take place. More can be seen in the following:


Of course, the most glaring issue to consider (in opposition to Lazarus as the disciple whom Jesus loved) is that it would be hard to reconcile how he was at the last supper. However, something that I had never considered before was that it was not JUST the disciples at the last Supper - for there were women there as well. In fact, Mark’s gospel indicates Jesus asked two disciples to prepare the Passover meal and then Jesus “came with the Twelve” (Mark 14:13-17). Logically, that would mean that at least fifteen people attended the Last Supper: Jesus, two disciples and “the Twelve”. In light of the fact that the Lord had male and female disciples - as well as the fact that meal preparation was a role that women fulfilled traditionally - it could easily have ben the case that the two disciples attending the Last Supper could have been women (or at least ONE of the disciples being a woman and another being male as an assistant - Lazarus being a brother to someone like Martha, that dynamic would not be far-fetched ). Having women as assistants is not hard to consider - in light of how we read Matthew 27:55: "Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs." (more noted in Luke 8:1-3) .....and as it concerns the company of women, we already see key events where women were present - as seen in one of them being someone who anointed the Lord for burial BEFORE he broke bread. More was shared in the thread entitled Matthew 26:6-13 - Anointings of Yeshua by Women and seeing what were they about? ....The image most people read with is one where the Lord is simply with men - but that imagery can skew dealing with the other facts. Something else to consider is that all four of the Gospels record Christ being anointed by a woman using perfume - with Judas complaining that the perfume is too expensive, whereas Jesus affirms what the woman is doing, saying that she is anointing him for his burial. While the Synoptic Gospels don't give identification to who the woman is, the fourth Gospel points out that it's Mary and the place she did the event at was Bethany. Logically, this would make sense for the author to make these identifications since Mary is Lazarus’ sister and Bethany is where they lived.
http://www.kylemcdanell.com/2013/10/rethinking-identity-of-beloved-disciple.html

As it concerns the article from the beginning by Ben Witherington, I do ask that others read through the article first/all the rebuttals given BEFORE speaking since it will help everyone be on the same page with what's actually being advocated with Lazarus as the author of John. I would hate for others to come into the thread speaking past what the intent of the OP is - but that has happened before in other places. Hopefully, it will not here - but with that said, if anyone has any thoughts on the matter, I'd love to hear. Blessings....
Word..
Love this, and i do believe it was indeed Lazarus. Other than Witherington there was another author with some fine details on this, he actually was on the forums back in the day when i started a thread very similar to this. I'd look it up but i've been away so long i don't understand the new layout.
 
Upvote 0