St Ephrem and Our Blessed Mother

[Maryslittleflower]

What would you say about these quotes by St Ephrem the Syrian? What is the Orthodox position on Mary being Mediatrix?

"St. Ephrem (or Ephraem, c. 306-373), the lyre of the Holy Spirit, a monk and a deacon, wrote in Syrian of the Virgin Mary according to a prayer ascribed to him: "After the Mediator thou art the mediatrix of the whole world..." (Oratio IV ad Deiparam, 4th Lesson of the Office of the Feast, cited in Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 211). In another prayer attributed to him, we read of Mary as the dispensatrix of all goods (William G. Most, Mary in Our Life, p. 34). On the similarities and contrasts of Eve and Mary, he wrote: "Mary and Eve, two people without guilt, two simple people, were identical. Later, however, one became the cause of our death, the other the cause of our life." (Op Syr II, 327; Ott, p. 201). St. Gregory, bishop of Nyssa (330-395), wrote in praise of St. Ephrem (Farmer, Saints, p. 143). For his voluminous works, the Church in 1920 named St. Ephrem a Doctor of the Church (ibid)." Quasi-Oz Poppycock: An Exchange on Mary, Another Redeemer by William Possidento

 

[ArmyMatt]

she is Mediatrix in that she gave flesh to the Logos, which united created and uncreated nature, which is our understanding of Christ being the sole mediator between God and man: that humanity and Divinity are truly one in Him.

 

[Maryslittleflower]

she is Mediatrix in that she gave flesh to the Logos, which united created and uncreated nature, which is our understanding of Christ being the sole mediator between God and man: that humanity and Divinity are truly one in Him.

Thank you for the reply, it seems to me like as Catholics we believe this too but we also believe graces are dispensed through her, from Christ. Also she united her suffering to His and she is the new Eve, of course her mediation is within His, not equal.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you for the reply, it seems to me like as Catholics we believe this too but we also believe graces are dispensed through her, from Christ. Also she united her suffering to His and she is the new Eve, of course her mediation is within His, not equal.

which is where the perpetual issue is. if grace is uncreated, it is impossible for it to be dispensed through her since she is created.

 

[Maryslittleflower]

which is where the perpetual issue is. if grace is uncreated, it is impossible for it to be dispensed through her since she is created.

Unless she dispenses it at the moment it becomes an instance of grace... (when there's a created reality).. and here it seems Catholics and Orthodox would disagree, so yes we go back to that issue

 

[ArmyMatt]

Unless she dispenses it at the moment it becomes an instance of grace... (when there's a created reality).. and here it seems Catholics and Orthodox would disagree, so yes we go back to that issue

and if grace is uncreated, that is something she cannot do

 

[Maryslittleflower]

and if grace is uncreated, that is something she cannot do

I don't think that's necessarily the case... because we do believe in Uncreated grace, but it's God Himself in eternity, and Mary mediates within time... She would then mediate created grace I guess, - I'm saying this as a speculation. The existence of uncreated grace wouldn't hinder this, and we believe grace is both created and uncreated depending on whether it's the substance or the instance..

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't think that's necessarily the case... because we do believe in Uncreated grace, but it's God Himself in eternity, and Mary mediates within time... She would then mediate created grace I guess, - I'm saying this as a speculation. The existence of uncreated grace wouldn't hinder this, and we believe grace is both created and uncreated depending on whether it's the substance or the instance..

but how is she the Mediatrix of all graces if she does not mediate uncreated grace? and that which is uncreated cannot change, so she could not change uncreated grace to created grace.

 

[~Anastasia~]

If grace is the very Energies of God ... wouldn't calling the Virgin Mary "the mediatrix of all graces" mean that she alone sends and directs the energies of God - the Holy Spirit even? This is impossible.

 

[Maryslittleflower]

I'll have to get back to you about the point about Mary mediating created/uncreated grace, and if it's only created grace, how that relates to the idea of her mediating "all graces". I'm trying to do some research on that.

It could be said that "all graces" refers to those graces that come to us, sanctifying and actual graces, and those are created.

We say that if Christ is the Head in the Church, Mary is like the neck.

Here's more about the idea of Mary being the Mediatrix of all graces and how she dispenses them.. The Three Ages of the Interior Life | Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, OP | Catholic Spiritual Teaching

Created grace allows us to participate in the divine nature while remaining creatures

I did come across this quote..

St. Gregory Palamas: “No divine gift can reach either angels or men, save through her mediation. As one cannot enjoy the light of a lamp … save through the medium of this lamp, so every movement towards God, every impulse towards good coming from Him is unrealizable save through the mediation of the Virgin. She does not cease to spread benefits on all creatures….”

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'll have to get back to you about the point about Mary mediating created/uncreated grace, and if it's only created grace, how that relates to the idea of her mediating "all graces". I'm trying to do some research on that.

It could be said that "all graces" refers to those graces that come to us, sanctifying and actual graces, and those are created.

We say that if Christ is the Head in the Church, Mary is like the neck.

Here's more about the idea of Mary being the Mediatrix of all graces and how she dispenses them.. The Three Ages of the Interior Life | Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, OP | Catholic Spiritual Teaching

Created grace allows us to participate in the divine nature while remaining creatures

I did come across this quote..

St. Gregory Palamas: “No divine gift can reach either angels or men, save through her mediation. As one cannot enjoy the light of a lamp … save through the medium of this lamp, so every movement towards God, every impulse towards good coming from Him is unrealizable save through the mediation of the Virgin. She does not cease to spread benefits on all creatures….”

yes, but that is tied in to the Incarnation, and that because of her giving the Word flesh, grace can come fully to all creatures, since all of creation is united to the Creator. St Gregory, I am pretty sure had a different understanding.

the fact that grace is uncreated is what allows us to participate in the Divine nature while remaining creatures. in fact, there is no way Divine life can come to man through created means. God only comes as Himself

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

What would you say about these quotes by St Ephrem the Syrian? What is the Orthodox position on Mary being Mediatrix?

"St. Ephrem (or Ephraem, c. 306-373), the lyre of the Holy Spirit, a monk and a deacon, wrote in Syrian of the Virgin Mary according to a prayer ascribed to him: "After the Mediator thou art the mediatrix of the whole world..." (Oratio IV ad Deiparam, 4th Lesson of the Office of the Feast, cited in Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 211). In another prayer attributed to him, we read of Mary as the dispensatrix of all goods (William G. Most, Mary in Our Life, p. 34). On the similarities and contrasts of Eve and Mary, he wrote: "Mary and Eve, two people without guilt, two simple people, were identical. Later, however, one became the cause of our death, the other the cause of our life." (Op Syr II, 327; Ott, p. 201). St. Gregory, bishop of Nyssa (330-395), wrote in praise of St. Ephrem (Farmer, Saints, p. 143). For his voluminous works, the Church in 1920 named St. Ephrem a Doctor of the Church (ibid)." Quasi-Oz Poppycock: An Exchange on Mary, Another Redeemer by William Possidento

Why so many threads about Mary? This one, another on Original Sin and another on the Sinlessness of Mary.

Do you ever have questions about the Holy Trinity? I'm not trying to be rude and am happy you ask questions, but yours strikes me as a curiously singular focus on Mary, which appears in neither the Gospels nor in the Fathers. So your Marian hypertrophy seems like a Roman Catholic innovation.

 

[Maryslittleflower]

yes, but that is tied in to the Incarnation, and that because of her giving the Word flesh, grace can come fully to all creatures, since all of creation is united to the Creator. St Gregory, I am pretty sure had a different understanding.

the fact that grace is uncreated is what allows us to participate in the Divine nature while remaining creatures. in fact, there is no way Divine life can come to man through created means. God only comes as Himself

I guess we would say that what happened in the Incarnation is linked also to how grace is distributed

regarding created and uncreated grace, I'm still researching that but it seems to me like what created grace does, in Catholic understanding is it disposes us to participate in God's life.. but it's really God's life that we are participating in. Here's what was defined by a Pope:

"By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever, we, with apostolic authority, define ... since the passion and death of the Lord Jesus Christ, these souls [of the blessed] have seen and see the divine essence with an intuitive vision and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature by way of object of vision; rather the divine essence immediately manifests itself to them, plainly, clearly and openly, and in this vision they enjoy the divine essence . Moreover, by this vision and enjoyment the souls of those who have already died are truly blessed and have eternal life and rest. Also the souls of those who will die in the future will see the same divine essence and will enjoy it before the general judgment."

I know the Orthodox would disagree about seeing the Divine essence, but what this is saying is that we do in fact participate in Divine Life, even with created grace... created grace disposes us and it's accidental which shows how we don't become literally God in this process. I guess the Orthodox view is that we don't become God because you believe there's a distinction between God's Essence and Energies and both are God. When Catholics talk about participating in the Divine Nature, we mean a partial participation, not one that changes substance, however.. I think we think about the participation differently - we don't see it like we have to be God in order to share in His life and see His Essence because we can share characteristics without sharing essence, - a partial sharing..

 

[Maryslittleflower]

Why so many threads about Mary? This one, another on Original Sin and another on the Sinlessness of Mary.

Do you ever have questions about the Holy Trinity? I'm not trying to be rude and am happy you ask questions, but yours strikes me as a curiously singular focus on Mary, which appears in neither the Gospels nor in the Fathers. So your Marian hypertrophy seems like a Roman Catholic innovation.

Jesus4Madrid, I don't understand why you feel a need to comment on my intentions in my posts. First you asked me why I am not just thinking of my own sins when I asked about Our Lady's sinlessness. (I could now ask you a similar question, why the need to try to figure out my soul? I have a spiritual father ). Now you wonder if I ever have questions about the Holy Trinity. Look we only spoken online, maybe once or twice. I don't know you and you don't know me. We don't know ANYTHING about each other, the questions we ask in real life, the state of our souls, etc etc. There's nothing wrong with talking about Our Lady and loving her. That is all that I will say. I kindly ask you to remember in this discussion that we are not here to spiritually direct each other and we don't know other posters unless we've spoken to them personally for a long time. It's better if we keep to theological topics.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I guess we would say that what happened in the Incarnation is linked also to how grace is distributed

regarding created and uncreated grace, I'm still researching that but it seems to me like what created grace does, in Catholic understanding is it disposes us to participate in God's life.. but it's really God's life that we are participating in. Here's what was defined by a Pope:

"By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever, we, with apostolic authority, define ... since the passion and death of the Lord Jesus Christ, these souls [of the blessed] have seen and see the divine essence with an intuitive vision and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature by way of object of vision; rather the divine essence immediately manifests itself to them, plainly, clearly and openly, and in this vision they enjoy the divine essence . Moreover, by this vision and enjoyment the souls of those who have already died are truly blessed and have eternal life and rest. Also the souls of those who will die in the future will see the same divine essence and will enjoy it before the general judgment."

I know the Orthodox would disagree about seeing the Divine essence, but what this is saying is that we do in fact participate in Divine Life, even with created grace... created grace disposes us and it's accidental which shows how we don't become literally God in this process. I guess the Orthodox view is that we don't become God because you believe there's a distinction between God's Essence and Energies and both are God. When Catholics talk about participating in the Divine Nature, we mean a partial participation, not one that changes substance, however.. I think we think about the participation differently - we don't see it like we have to be God in order to share in His life and see His Essence because we can share characteristics without sharing essence, - a partial sharing..

and the problem is that only God can bestow His characteristics on us. only if grace is Divine can we participate in the Divine life, since created nature has no reference to uncreated nature.

 

[Maryslittleflower]

and the problem is that only God can bestow His characteristics on us. only if grace is Divine can we participate in the Divine life, since created nature has no reference to uncreated nature.

what if it serves to dispose us towards the Divine life, that we do participate in truly?

 

[ArmyMatt]

what if it serves to dispose us towards the Divine life, that we do participate in truly?

only something Divine and uncreated disposes us to truly participate in Divine life.