Sr. Helen Prejean on Rachel Maddow tonight...

[WarriorAngel]

Many, including myself view as very hypocritical, people who advocate pro life views for unborn babies while support or are agnostic of the Death Penalty...

The Catholic Church supports the death penalty - and even tho Sr Prejean sent a letter to convince the Pope according to her opinion that it should be banned - the Pope led by the Spirit did not bar or ban its use. And never will.

The site quotes Radzinger that the death penalty can be debated - but abortion cannot - as an absolute evil. The DP is not in the same absolutes.

As much as some like to pound on it and suggest it is the same - it absolutely is not.

So i can be fully pro life - and still see how the DP is also in keeping with pro life. For those who murder are against life and without rational consideration or even accepting human dignity of another - they will kill a person for their own purposes.

What most of you all fail repeatedly and continuously to see is that the DP is actually the best way to convert a hard heart.
Sure - some have learned without being in their last hours before death -- taking Jeffrey Dahmer into consideration - who led by grace actually admitted he should be given the DP for his crimes. He actually wanted to die for his crimes.

Then take Mr Night stalker as an example too - he was on death row - but Ca doesnt do it anymore... so he - like most - considered themselves to live out a life of old age - without remorse.
He failed - he died young in his 50's but never seemed to have changed his heart.

Thius weeping - crying of those facing death is a baptism of the heart of sorts. Facing imminent death due to crimes - causes painful regret in their actions and absolute contritution that no amount of time sitting around in a cell will do in most circumstances.

Tho Jeff Dahmer was raised by Christians - and pulled away from it - the seed of grace was already planted in him. Most of these serial killers have no conscience in living. Facing their own demise pulls a switch otherwise not found in them.

You want them to convert to God - then the fear of God in their last hours is truly the only way to reach them.

And be glad the Lord thru His Church gives humanity both this protection from these kinds and to themselves in their last hours - a calling to grace.

God knows the human heart better than all the 'compassionate' ones on earth and this is why the Church will NEVER ever ban or bar its use fully or completely - because it is indeed a tool He uses.

Even the thief was given grace in his last hour...to which i am sure he wouldnt have exchanged for all the money in the world knowing what he knows now.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

I don't think the Catholic Church "supports" the death penalty. I've read through the Catechism a couple of times. Without looking it up, I think the church acknowledges that it may be a necessary evil in certain circumstances. That's a little different than "support."

 

[Rhamiel]

God knows the human heart better than all the 'compassionate' ones on earth and this is why the Church will NEVER ever ban or bar its use fully or completely - because it is indeed a tool He uses.

well all kinds of evil things can be used as tools for the Lord

in the OT God uses Cyrus, king of the Persians as a tool of justice agianst Babylon

the persian empire was latter punished for its own sins, but it was used by God
it does not make the persians "good" they sacrificed to idols and were a bloodthirsty empire.

If God uses the death penalty as a tool to touch the hearts of sinners, that does not make those involved with the killing of felons "holy"

The Church teaches that capitol punishment can only be used when it is a needed tool
we do NOT need it
we have rule of law
we have the money to keep prisoners incarcerated for life

it is immoral killing

it is not as bad as cold blooded murder, it is not as bad as abortion
but it is NOT in line with Church teaching!
to pretend otherwise is a lie

 

[Rhamiel]

I don't think the Catholic Church "supports" the death penalty. I've read through the Catechism a couple of times. Without looking it up, I think the church acknowledges that it may be a necessary evil in certain circumstances. That's a little different than "support."

thank you, you put it better then I could have

One instance that comes to mind is Saddam Hussein
as long as he was alive, there was a risk that people would start up revolutions that would cost human life, and if he got back into power, something that was unlikely but still possible, he would kill thousands.

The risk of him getting out of prison was real because of the possiblity of armed militants attacking the prison and setting him free.

Also, failed states that do not have enough food and other recourses to feed its population can not waste what little it does have on murderers.

neither of these examples are fitting to justify the use of capitol punishment in the USA

 

[MikeK]

What most of you all fail repeatedly and continuously to see is that the DP is actually the best way to convert a hard heart.

Whereas "the DP is actually the best way to convert a hard heart", and whereas the single most important thing for any person is to secure their salvation, one cannot conclude anything but that we would be doing much good if we found sinners, explained that we are about to kill them, and gave them a moment to reflect and repent before pulling the trigger. I think your private interpretation is flawed.

I agree with Blessed Pope John Paul the 2nd, that the death penalty is "cruel and unnecessary."

In case anyone is curious as to what the men appointed by the Church think you need to know about the death penalty in modern day USA, here you go, from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops website:

USCCB - (SDWP) - Statements on the Death Penalty By the Holy Father

Catholic Campaign to End
the Use of the Death Penalty

Statements on the Death Penalty By the Holy Father

The new evangelization calls for followers of Christ who are unconditionally pro-life: who will proclaim, celebrate and serve the Gospel of life in every situation. A sign of hope is the increasing recognition that the dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform. I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary. (Pope John Paul II, St. Louis, MO, January 1999) Punishment cannot be reduced to mere retribution, much less take the form of social retaliation or a sort of institutional vengeance. Punishment and imprisonment have meaning if they serve the rehabilitation of the individual by offering those who have made a mistake an opportunity to reflect and to change their lives in order to be fully reintegrated into society. (Pope John Paul II, Jubilee Homily to Prisoners, Rome, July 2002)

The Holy Father calls recourse to the death penalty “unnecessary” and painfully reminds us that our “model of society bears the stamp of the culture of death, and is therefore in opposition to the Gospel message.” (Pope John Paul II, World Day of the Sick, Washington, DC, February 2003)

May the proclamation of Christmas be a source of encouragement to all those who work to bring relief to the tormented situation in the Middle East by respecting international commitments. May Christmas help to strengthen and renew, throughout the world, the consensus concerning the need for urgent and adequate measures to halt the production and sale of arms, to defend human life, to end the death penalty, to free children and adolescents from all forms of exploitation, to restrain the bloodied hand of those responsible for genocide and crimes of war, to give environmental issues, especially after the recent natural catastrophes, the indispensable attention which they deserve for the protection of creation and of human dignity! (Pope John Paul II, Christmas Day Message, 1998)

Nowadays, in America as elsewhere in the world, a model of society appears to be emerging in which the powerful predominate, setting aside and even eliminating the powerless: I am thinking here of unborn children, helpless victims of abortion; the elderly and incurably ill, subjected at times to euthanasia; and the many other people relegated to the margins of society by consumerism and materialism. Nor can I fail to mention the unnecessary recourse to the death penalty when other "bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons. Today, given the means at the State's disposal to deal with crime and control those who commit it, without abandoning all hope of their redemption, the cases where it is absolutely necessary to do away with an offender 'are now very rare, even non-existent practically'". (Pope John Paul II, Ecclesia in America January 1999)

The primary purpose of the punishment which society inflicts is "to redress the disorder caused by the offense." Public authority must redress the violation of personal and social rights by imposing on the offender an adequate punishment for the crime, as a condition for the offender to regain the exercise of his or her freedom. In this way authority also fulfills the purpose of defending public order and ensuring people's safety, while at the same time offering the offender an incentive and help to change his or her behavior and be rehabilitated.

It is clear that for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: In other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare if not practically nonexistent. (Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, 1995)

Email us at deathpenalty@usccb.org
Social Development and World Peace | 3211 4th Street, N.E., Washington DC 20017-1194 | (202) 541-3000 © USCCB. All rights reserved.

 

[S.ilvio]

The Catholic Church supports the death penalty - and even tho Sr Prejean sent a letter to convince the Pope according to her opinion that it should be banned - the Pope led by the Spirit did not bar or ban its use. And never will.

The site quotes Radzinger that the death penalty can be debated - but abortion cannot - as an absolute evil. The DP is not in the same absolutes.

As much as some like to pound on it and suggest it is the same - it absolutely is not.

So i can be fully pro life - and still see how the DP is also in keeping with pro life. For those who murder are against life and without rational consideration or even accepting human dignity of another - they will kill a person for their own purposes.

What most of you all fail repeatedly and continuously to see is that the DP is actually the best way to convert a hard heart.
Sure - some have learned without being in their last hours before death -- taking Jeffrey Dahmer into consideration - who led by grace actually admitted he should be given the DP for his crimes. He actually wanted to die for his crimes.

Then take Mr Night stalker as an example too - he was on death row - but Ca doesnt do it anymore... so he - like most - considered themselves to live out a life of old age - without remorse.
He failed - he died young in his 50's but never seemed to have changed his heart.

Thius weeping - crying of those facing death is a baptism of the heart of sorts. Facing imminent death due to crimes - causes painful regret in their actions and absolute contritution that no amount of time sitting around in a cell will do in most circumstances.

Tho Jeff Dahmer was raised by Christians - and pulled away from it - the seed of grace was already planted in him. Most of these serial killers have no conscience in living. Facing their own demise pulls a switch otherwise not found in them.

You want them to convert to God - then the fear of God in their last hours is truly the only way to reach them.

And be glad the Lord thru His Church gives humanity both this protection from these kinds and to themselves in their last hours - a calling to grace.

God knows the human heart better than all the 'compassionate' ones on earth and this is why the Church will NEVER ever ban or bar its use fully or completely - because it is indeed a tool He uses.

Even the thief was given grace in his last hour...to which i am sure he wouldnt have exchanged for all the money in the world knowing what he knows now.

Pope emeritus Benedict and myself are consistently Pro Life regarding abortion and the DP. Are you..?

 

[Rhamiel]

there is a reason that the devil is shown as having many heads in the book of Revelation of St.John

abortion,unneeded death penalty, euthinasia, unjust war, slavery

these are all differant "heads" of the same beast
we can not be free of one untill all of them are killed
if we only focus on one, then the others will keep it "alive" and in time it will heal up

ALL of them say "that other guys life is not really important, do what you want"
kill em, make em a slave
haha whatever

that is what the satanic voice whispers to a Christ-starved world!
we must honor every human being, everyone is made in the image of God, and that is to be respected no matter what

 

[MikeK]

we must honor every human being, everyone is made in the image of God, and that is to be respected no matter what

This.

The taking of a human life is a very big thing indeed. I can't help but notice that in the days immediately preceeding their executions, death row inmates - even those few who have stated that they regret nothing and would do it again, are unable to kill people. This proves that we have the ability, if we put our minds to it, to keep society safe from these people who wish to do evil without killing them.

The death penalty in modern society is not pro-life, it is part of the culture of death.

Abortion is not pro-life, it is part of the culture of death.

Human slavery is not pro-life, it is part of the culture of death.

Restricting movement of people beyond minimally intrussive methods with no cost is not pro-life, it is part of the culture of death.

Purchasing goods which were made by slave laborers in unsafe conditions is not pro-life, it is part of the culture of death.

Bush's unjust wars are not pro-life, they are part of the culture of death.

Obama's unjust wars are not pro-life, they are part of the culture of death.

If we do not demand change from we're seeing and work to effect that change, no matter how long it takes, we are part of the problem and we share that guilt.

 

[silverrune]

There is a split second in the execution scene of Dead Man Walking where the reflections of the victims appears in the glass of the chamber. Did anyone else notice that? It was like a brief reminder of, "Don't forget what he did to get here..."

I did see that. I think those images were there so that his victims could see justice done.
Moving movie all the way around.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The only reason we are not able to defend guards and other inmates from dangerous inmates is that we have elected not to. If we vallued human life, we would not be allowing inmates to kill other inmates or guards nor would we be executing them. Putting someone in a permanent cell alone with their only acces to the outside word an endless supply of books might seem cruel, but it might be needed in some cases and is less cruel than state-sponsored murder.

In order to protect guards, staff and other inmates from dangerous convicts, we would have to take measures that are inhumane.

Fact is, we probably have crossed the level of inhumane treatment as it is.

Keeping a convict locked up and drugged to sleep 24/7 is inhumane.

But even then, medical staff and others have to get to the prisoner to give him his sleep inducing drug, and to provide other medical checks. Also he has to be fed and watered in between drugging.

Jim

 

[MikeK]

In order to protect guards, staff and other inmates from dangerous convicts, we would have to take measures that are inhumane.

Inhumanity is not an all-or-nothing construct. It is not less humane to remove a person who has demonstrated that they cannot interact with humans without harming them from human contact than it is to rob that person of their very life.

Fact is, we probably have crossed the level of inhumane treatment as it is.

Keeping a convict locked up and drugged to sleep 24/7 is inhumane.

But even then, medical staff and others have to get to the prisoner to give him his sleep inducing drug, and to provide other medical checks. Also he has to be fed and watered in between drugging.

And we've been effective, when we decide to, at providing inmates with what they require to sustain life without putting anyone in harm's way. It is difficult and it is a hassel. It is not impossible. Only when other methods have been exhausted is the death penalty permissable.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Pope emeritus Benedict and myself are consistently Pro Life regarding abortion and the DP. Are you..?

Pope Benedict at no time disagreed with the Catechism.

 

[S.ilvio]

Pope Benedict at no time disagreed with the Catechism.

Are you with us or against us..?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Time and again - no one cares about other prisoners being murdered and hits being made via these men and women while inside - as well as guards.

Keep telling yourselves - per Sr Jean - that they are contained and no longer able to kill.
Which isnt true BTW.

Indeed - Jeffrey Dahmer himself knew he deserved the death penalty - and yet - someone inside killed him by bashing his skull into a sink and killing him.

I guess its ok he died - since he was a serial sicko.

Meantime - murders keep going on inside... like as if those ppl simply dont matter.

These ppl are still a threat. And some get out for good behavior - and kill again.
And again til caught again.

They learned nothing while in holding. It didnt frighten them to go back in.

Death - frightens them. Well most of them.

What does Persian kings have to do with justice? God has never allowed the Church to renounce the need for the DP. He hasnt even allowed them to ban it - maybe put in side notes - its rare - but it cannot be removed. Because what you call evil - is God's tool to bring repentance.

What you dont see - is repentance means everything to God - and this life - doesnt mean everything - because it is temporary.

You all think clinging to this life is the end all to everything. Its not. The next life is - and if someone never has to face their judgment or think about it assuming they can live til a ripe old age to think about it - they are not finding any way to go to God. Until a date is set for their death.

These men and women are given a favor - especially compared to their victims - who may be in hell for eternity because they killed them without remorse.

Maybe the 'murderers' who did send souls to hell - arent given the opportunity to face their end - and are allowed to live out this life til they die.

But - it's not an evil to God. We are all going to die eventually - death isnt evil...esp in light of God's Justice and Justice is punishment...that like hot fire - turns substance to a glow and becomes polished like silver.
Going to hell is justice and God does no evil.
Therefore this is a tool for the greater good of the souls.

 

[WarriorAngel]

There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
- Pope Benedict XVI (when he was known as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger)
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