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Featured Spoken words or Traditions used to make or confirm Scripture vs. RCC traditions (after the Bible).

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Jason0047, Jan 2, 2017.

  1. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    2 Thessalonians 2:15 is the banner flag verse for the Roman Catholic (RCC) and Orthodox churches to support their view on holding to church tradition. Of the occurences of the word "traditions" only 3 are used in reference to God's people. The 10 other occurences of the word "traditions" is used in a negative sense. Also, Jesus followers and Paul were making sacred Scripture that would end with John's vision that he had written down. For if we are to add to the words of the prophecy of John's book (Which is the end of the Bible), then we would be at risk of adding plagues to ourselves that would be contained within the Bible itself (Revelation 22:18-19). Remember, Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Paul also says that what he had written should be regarded as the Commandments from the LORD (1 Corinthians 14:37). The books written by Paul clearly show that they are just as divine as the rest of the book in the Bible. They breath in perfect harmony with the whole Bible. Also, the spoken word was always confirmed by the written Word. For the Bereans were more noble because they searched the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not (Acts 17:11). So it always comes back to the written Word of God. No other holy book besides the Bible stands the test like the Bible. A person may make the claim that their additional holy writings are divine, but they cannot be verified as being true in the same way as the Bible. Evidences of all kind supports the Bible. But this is not the case for any other holy book or writings. In fact, the Mormons have their extra book. Jehovah's Witnesses have their extra writings. The Muslims have their extra written words. Does that mean everyone is correct?

    Anyways, may God bless you all.
    And may His love shine upon you.
    For I do not wish ill will upon anyone but I am wishing nothing but good things to you all in Christ Jesus.

    Peace be unto you.

    Note: This thread was started as a reply to a certain post from another CF writer in another thread.

    Yes, this actually proves my case and not yours. You believe you need the church or men in order to understand God's Word. You believe you need those extra writings. God's Word is sufficient all on it's own. But again, the Bible shows us that we do not ultimately need man for God to teach us. How so? The Bible says,

    "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him" (1 John 2:27).


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    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  2. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Compassion is the basis of the teachings . Supporter

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    The only way to know is like with the manuscript variants, test out the application and see what fruit it bears. Over time, you'll know what direction God is leading you in this regard. "by their fruit you will know them"
     
  3. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    No. I did not need manuscript variants to know the truth on this matter. The Word of God in our own language is plenty sufficient to convince me of the truth on this matter according to God's Word. I posted verses in the English language to prove my case.

    Granted, this is not an exhaustive defense on the topic with God's Word. But merely an introductory defense with His Word on the matter.


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  4. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Compassion is the basis of the teachings . Supporter

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    To re-iterate my point, the basis of knowing if something is a good teaching: apply it, see the fruit, make a judgment.
     
  5. TX_Matt

    TX_Matt Theological Mutt CF Ambassadors

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    The ironic thing about attacking church tradition is that it wouldn't be possible without church tradition.
     
  6. Thursday

    Thursday Well-Known Member

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    [QUOTE="Jason0047, post: 70630471, member: 356113]




    Yes, this actually proves my case and not yours. You believe you need the church or men in order to understand God's Word. You believe you need those extra writings. God's Word is sufficient all on it's own. But again, the Bible shows us that we do not ultimately need man for God to teach us. How so? The Bible says,

    "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him" (1 John 2:27).


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    You are mistaken again.

    In John 15 Jesus is speaking to the leaders of the Church, not to you and I. We don't have the authority given to the apostles.
     
  7. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    In John 15, the word "disciples" is used (John 15:8).

    A "disciple" is simply a follower of Jesus Christ. For even certain disciples stopped following Jesus.

    "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." (John 6:66).

    Also, Jesus said to those Jews which believed on Him, "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" (John 8:31).


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  8. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    That is like saying that the bad thing about attacking drug abuse is that it would not be possible without drugs being in existence in the first place. Something is not true or good just because it exists.

    Granted, I am not saying there were no "traditions" or "no spoken words" mentioned in the Bible. But these traditions or spoken words were something that MADE up the Written Word of God we have today. Also, the spoken Word of God is confirmed by the Written Word (See Acts 17:11).

    There were no traditions or spoken words added after the Bible was complete. Nor were there any traditions or spoken words added that is not clearly described to us in Scripture, either.


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  9. TX_Matt

    TX_Matt Theological Mutt CF Ambassadors

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    What I am saying is that you cannot separate tradition from scripture, you cannot interpret scripture without it. What you believe was taught to you by someone, who taught it to them, etc.
     
  10. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    But there is a huge difference between the spoken words of God (traditions) used vs. the Traditions that Catholic and Orthodox churches propose.

    #1. Biblical Spoken Words of God (traditions) were confirmed by the Written Word (See Acts 17:11). This is not the case with Catholic or Orthodox traditions. One cannot clearly see these extra teachings in the Bible. That is why the RCC is so strongly against Sola Scriptura.

    #2. The Biblical Spoken Word of God was turned into the Written Word of God. Scripture claims it is the very word of God. The Scriptures have many evidences backing it up proving that is divine in origin. So the Bible is unlike any other book or written work claiming to be holy.

    #3. The Bible ends with adding a warning not to add any words to the prophecy of Revelation. Seeing, Revelation is the final book added to the Bible, no other words can be added to the Bible. It was meant to be one book with no supplements.


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  11. Thursday

    Thursday Well-Known Member

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    In John 15 Jesus is in the upper room with the apostles. These are the leaders of the Church.

    It is during the same meeting that he prays for the apostles(his disciples), and he clearly distinguishes their role from that of the rest of us. We are to follow THEIR message, not make our own:

    Jesus prays for his Disciples:

    15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

    Jesus Prays for All Believers

    20“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
     
  12. TX_Matt

    TX_Matt Theological Mutt CF Ambassadors

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    What about Protestant traditions?

    There are no extra teachings in Catholic or Othodoxy, beliefs are specified and expanded upon in catechisms and creeds, but there's no new teaching that isn't rooted in scripture. Perhaps the older faiths are against sola scriptura is because they know you can't interpret scripture without the tradition and teachings of the church, and what happens when it goes wrong.

    Catholics and Orthodox would agree the Bible is above other writings, however, that doesn't make later writings meaningless or wrong.

    Nobody has had added words to scripture, but "with no supplements" is a huge stretch of interpretation from what the passage says.
     
  13. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    I will make one more attempt with God's Word to show you the truth on this matter and then I am moving on.

    The Bible says,

    1 Peter 5:3 GW
    "Don't be rulers over the people entrusted to you, but be examples for the flock to follow"

    Matthew 23:8-9
    "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

    2 Corinthians 1:24
    "Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand."

    2 Corinthians 11:20 NLT
    "You put up with it when someone enslaves you, takes everything you have, takes advantage of you, takes control of everything, and slaps you in the face."

    Acts 15:25
    "It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul."

    1 Corinthians 1:10
    "...that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment"

    1 Corinthians 12:7
    "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal"

    1 Corinthians 14:26 NASB
    "What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification."

    1 Corinthians 14:31
    "For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted."

    1 Peter 4:10-11
    10 "As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
    11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen"

    Colossians 3:16-17
    16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."

    Colossians 2:8
    "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ"

    Matthew 20:25-27
    25 "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
    26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
    27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:"

    3 John 1:9 AMPC
    I have written briefly to the church; but Diotrephes, who likes to take the lead among them and put himself first, does not acknowledge my authority and refuses to accept my suggestions or to listen to me."

    1 Corinthians 3:9 KJ2
    "For we are laborers together with God: you are God's field, you are God's building."

    Jesus is the great shepherd of the sheep:

    Hebrews 13:20-21
    20 "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
    21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

    God rules in hearts by which we are called unto one body:

    Colossians 3:15
    "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful."

    Christ is the head of the church:

    Ephesians 4:15
    "Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ."

    Ephesians 1:22-23
    22 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
    23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

    Jesus is the foundation:

    1 Corinthians 3:10
    10 "According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

    Jesus is the Rock:

    Matthew 7:24-25
    24 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock."

    1 Corinthians 10:4
    "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."



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  14. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    My brief bio in every post says I am Non-Denominational. So I am not Protestant. I do not believe in OSAS or Once Saved Always Saved; For Luther was promoting what we would call OSAS today when he protested against the Catholic church. Most of the Protestant churches today still believe in OSAS. But it is a teaching not found within the Scriptures, though.

    As for Catholic traditions: You will not see the following practices clearly described to us in the New Testament.

    (a) Salvation in Mary
    (b) Praying to dead saints
    (c) Eucharist salvation
    (d) Bowing down and the kissing of statues
    (e) Confessional
    (f) Calling men your father
    (g) Holy garments and rituals with candles, etc.
    (h) Lifting up of one man as if he is more holy than other people
    (I) Large expensive church building and the hoarding of earthly treasures.
    (j) A pope like leader (whereby crowds of people adore him).

    Also, the word "traditions" mentioned in the Bible is primarily negative with it's use (i.e. 10 times the word is negative). Only 3 times is the word "traditons" used favorably but it was not something in reference to a whole new teaching outside of God's Word. Acts 17:11 says that the Bereans were more noble because they searched the Scriptures to see whether those things "spoken" were true or not.

    Are you a Berean?
    Have you searched the Scriptures to see if the above list of things is clearly found within the Scriptures?

    Anyways, if you don't get it, that's okay.
    I am moving on.
    But I will be praying for everyone to see what God has shown to me on this matter.


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    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  15. TX_Matt

    TX_Matt Theological Mutt CF Ambassadors

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    Non-denominational is still Protestant.


    Not sure what this means since Catholics do not claim that salvation can be found in Mary, but only Jesus Christ.

    It's more asking saints to pray for them. The general idea behind saints is it's brothers and sister and Christ that we can look up to and relate to as people who have gone before us that have faced the same trials and temptations as we are currently struggling with. Scripture says we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, that is what this practice does.

    Not sure what this is referring to either, in celebrating the Eucharist, we receive the body and blood of Christ, thus grace.

    God commanded the Israelites to make statues and images of cherubim and other things in the Old Testament, commanded Moses to make a staff that healed all the Israelites to look at a staff, which was refenced by Jesus.

    (f) Calling men your father[/QUOTE]

    Referring to spritual leaderships in familial terms has been around since the writing of scripture, Paul calls refers to himself as "father" in Corinthians, and calls Timothy "his son".

    The priestly garments and robes, candles, etc. are a reflection of the worship found in the Old Testament.


    Cathedrals are designed to point your eyes, therefore mind, towards Heaven.
     
  16. Paul Yohannan

    Paul Yohannan Cyber Janitor and Thread-Cleaner Extraordinaire

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    No, not really. I would cite Galatians 1:8 together with 2 Thessalonians 3:6, Matthew 16:18 and 1 Corinthians 11:2 as demonstrating the need to adhere to the traditional interpreration of scripture we have received from the Apostles, and to reject innovation.
     
  17. Paul Yohannan

    Paul Yohannan Cyber Janitor and Thread-Cleaner Extraordinaire

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    Setting aside your use of the phrase "Word of God," which I maintain directly contradicts John 1:1, this statement reveals the main limitation in your argument.

    The Apocalypse, or Revelation, as it is also known, was a very controversial book and is absent from a great many ancient Bibles, for example, the East Syriac Peshitta. Its canonical status was only confirmed by St. Athanasius in the 39th Paschal Encyclical in the 4th century, and this confirmation in turn took a very long time to propagate through the entire church.

    What is more, the specific order of books in the NT is itself a matter of tradition and is subject to change. The Apocalypse was at the back of Luther's Bible, with the rest of the "Antilegomenna," because Luther doubted its authenticity, veracity and importance.
     
  18. Thursday

    Thursday Well-Known Member

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    Completely irrelevant to my point. Again.
     
  19. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    Again, Luther is the founder of the Protestant Church we have today. Without Luther, the Protestant church would not exist. Seeing I do not believe Luther's teaching on salvation, I am not a Protestant. Yes, Non-denominational churches may share similar other doctrines with Protestants, but that does not mean they are the same church. But go ahead and believe whatever you want to believe.

    Vatican 2 says: "Mary, the Mother of God…is united with indissoluble bonds to the saving work of her Son."

    The RCC weekly family newspaper, In a September 12, 1993 article on Mary says: "Sprinkled throughout the Catholic liturgical year are feasts celebrating the Blessed Virgin Mary's role in human salvation and how she continues to intercede for people at God's right hand."

    Yet, there is nothing about Mary playing any role or part in salvation according to the Bible.

    No. Nowhere does that verse or any other verse support the idea that we can contact or pray to the dead. In fact, Necromancy or contacting the dead was strictly forbidden in the Old Testament and it was associated with sorcery (See Revelation 21:8 on sorcery).

    No. A few verses are taken out of context to make a method of salvation out of the Lord's supper mentioned in the Bible. The passages on the Lord's supper reads more naturaly with the bread and the wine being metaphorical. Besides, if it was literal and for salvation, would you not think that such a thing would be clearly spelled out for us in God's Word (with no mistake about it)? Why would a process of salvation be so mysterious? It doesn't make any sense.

    These were things that had only a temporary purpose or use. The bronze snake and the Ark are not still used by God's people today. They were short term in their use and sanctioned directly by God Himself. Also, the snake on a pole that Moses had was later wrongfully worshiped as an idol (2 Kings 18:4).

    I mean, why would God say, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" (Exodus 20:4) ?

    Where in God's Word are statues of saints and Mary allowed?
    Where does God's Word say we can bow down to these statues?

    Philippians 2:22, says, " But ye know the proof of him, that, as a son with the father, he hath served with me in the gospel."

    Here we see that Paul is calling his relationship with Timothy as being like a father and son type relationship. Paul said about Timothy.... "AS a son with the father." In other words, Paul is making a comparison or parallel and he is not telling Timothy or the the Philippians that he should be called "father." He is merely describing their relationship in what it is like.

    What about 1 Corinthians 4:15?

    Well, 1 Corinthians 4:15 says,
    "For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel"

    Here we see Paul implying he is like a father to the Corinthians because he has begotten them thru the gospel. Paul is merely making a comparison again and he is not saying that they should call him their (spiritual) "father." Paul does not say, "from now on, call me your spiritual father because I have begotten you thru the gospel."

    Paul doesn't say anything like that.
    Paul is merely pointing out that the Corinthians now have someone like a father figure to look after them because he has begotten thru the gospel.

    So Jesus's command in not calling any man father (in the spiritual sense) still applies. Paul was merely making a parallel to the brethren of how he was like a father figure to the Corinthians and to Timothy. Paul was not declaring that he should be called "father."

    That is something that you have to add to the Bible that is not there.

    Jesus's words still apply. Jesus still means what He said. Jesus says, not to call anyone father (as a religious title). Paul is not commanding anyone to call him "father." He is merely making parallels or comparisons of his relationships. There is a difference.

    For example: I can say I am like a king because of my association with Jesus Christ (Revelation 1:6), but that does not mean I desire that people call me "King Jason."

    But we are under the New Testament and not the Old Testament.

    No. Cathedrals are designed as a seat for the bishop and as a part of gathering. The extensive expense on them goes against the words of Jesus that says we are to put our treasures in heaven and not here upon this Earth.

    Also, where do we see Cathedrals being commanded by God for us to build within the New Testament?


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    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  20. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ

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    Sorry. I just don't believe you. I believe the Word of God instead.


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