Spiritual warfare vs demonology

[Dave-W]

My emotions are like properties of me. They are not things that exist in objective reality. Demons supposedly are.

Demons exist in a part of reality that is inaccessible to us, but they attach to minds and bodies in our reality to do their work.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I would have to experience that first hand - be abducted myself.

But how you would you know that what you experienced was real?
Clearly not all that people experience is actually real....

Do you believe that those claiming to have been abducted and experimented on, really were?
I'm guessing you don't. Yet, these people are extremely convinced. They pass lie detector tests and everything.

Consider a schizofrenic in accute psychosis. This person literally sees and hears things that aren't there. They also experience sensations etc. If their hallucination tells them that a a spider is crawling up their leg, they literally do feel a spider crawling on their leg. You can put them in a brainscanner and you will see the neurons firing up. But there is no spider there.....

So while "experience" clearly can make you believe things... they can not be considered evidence/proof that those things are actually real.

So I'll rephrase then..... barring "personal experience of abduction", what kind of evidence would convince you that what these people claim, is actually true?

How about........ if they snatch something of a shelve inside the space ship while being abducted? As Neil deGrass Tyson once said "if you manage to steal something -anything- from an alien space ship, of alien manufacturing, that likely originated lightyears from earth... it is bound to be interesting!"

Wouldn't that be a nice first step?

Are you willing to experience having a demon or 2 manifest and be kicked out of your own body?

If you can make that happen on command in a repeatable way, go for it!

 

[DogmaHunter]

Demons exist in a part of reality that is inaccessible to us

So essentially.... you are making knowledge claims about the undetectable?

, but they attach to minds and bodies in our reality to do their work.

That would make them detectable / accessible.
Make up your mind.


So, how can one detect that a demon has attached itself to a "mind and body"?

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

Something I never quite understood regarding belief in demon possession.... When ever an atheist asks for a demonstration of the existence of God, something concrete and physical, one popular excuse given as to why God does not do this is to preserve freewill. That argument in and of itself makes no sense, since giving someone more information about something in no way hinders their ability to make a choice about it, and in fact gives them a better foundation to exercise freewill. But for some reason demons are able to absolutely wreck people's freewill with impunity. Why would God allow that with regard to things that can apparently damn our eternal souls which he does not allow for himself to save it?

 

[Dave-W]

e detect that a demon has attached itself to a "mind and body"?

There is a supernatural revelation gift called discerning of spirits for that.

 

[Dave-W]

But for some reason demons are able to absolutely wreck people's freewill with impunity. Why would God allow that

No, they do not wreck free will. In the case of the Gaderene demoniac (recorded in several gospels), the person had some 2000 demons but yet he was still able to drag himself before Jesus.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

No, they do not wreck free will. In the case of the Gaderene demoniac (recorded in several gospels), the person had some 2000 demons but yet he was still able to drag himself before Jesus.

How does physical possession by a spiritual entity to the point of physically taking over someone's bodily control, even if they are able to muster some decision making on their own, NOT affect free will, but God merely making his presence physically and objectively known does?? This is the argument used when we ask about God manifesting himself physically and objectively or physically intervening in the world by, say, stopping the rape of a child. But that same child gets "demon possessed" because she was abused and her freewill is perfectly intact? That makes no sense.

 

[DogmaHunter]

There is a supernatural revelation gift called discerning of spirits for that.

How does that work, exactly?

 

[Par5]

Demons exist in a part of reality that is inaccessible to us, but they attach to minds and bodies in our reality to do their work.

I have just finished reading a short article in the bible.org website entitled, "Healing the demoniac at Gadara".
That people could believe this kind of nonsense a couple of thousand of years ago is no big
surprise, but people in the 21st century believing such a thing, that is something else.
On the page I was reading there was an advert for Disneyland which I thought was rather apt. The peddlers of fantasy advertising on a site that peddles fantasy. Way to go Disney!

 

[Dave-W]

How does that work, exactly?

I cannot explain that in a way that would make sense to you. Until you are born again and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, it is impossible for you to understand.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I cannot explain that in a way that would make sense to you. Until you are born again and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, it is impossible for you to understand.

Uhu.

 

[Dave-W]

Uhu.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

 

[DogmaHunter]

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Every religion, one way or the other, calls those that don't follow it "fools" or "foolish" or similar.

It's not surprising. It's actually expected.
In fact, I'ld be surprised if you can come show me an existing theistic religion that did NOT say something of that sort.

 

[Eloy Craft]

The human psyche can cuase phenomena that is easily mistaken as demonic . There are in the subconscious mind abilities to produce change in the body that the conscious mind is not. So when they are seen they seem to have an external source. Scratches on the skin can appear. The subconscious can detect the words being thought in the mind by the subtle vibrations from the throat that accompany thoughts. Superhuman strength can be summoned up in intensely emotional states. The body can contort into what seems to be inhuman shapes and movements. These sorts of things are what demons also do when they operate the faculties and the sensitive powers of the soul. So, what most people consider signs of a possession can be psychological.

Exorcists use various means to distinguish the two. The first thing is psychological analysis by a psychologist. If the psychologist can't determine the problem then a Priest is called in to determine if what is happening is demonic. He brings two vials of water that look the same. One has been blessed the other not. If the person reacts to the unblessed water or doesn't react to the blessed water, indicates it's not a demon. If the person is able to speak in languages impossible for them to know is evidence. If the person brings up hidden or unknown sins, from various people in the room, past events that only the person who experienced them would know, sins only the person who committed the sin would know, are good signs. If these preternatural powers are demonstrated it's understood to be a fallen angel's powers operating and not powers of the human soul.

A demon cannot violate a persons free will. It can operate the imagination and memory and the sensitive powers of the body but the will it can't touch. This means the person inside is able to will to not be possessed. That freedom is necessary to exorcise the demon since it has in some way gained rights over the person.

 

[RDKirk]

A demon cannot violate a persons free will. It can operate the imagination and memory and the sensitive powers of the body but the will it can't touch. This means the person inside is able to will to not be possessed. That freedom is necessary to exorcise the demon since it has in some way gained rights over the person.

Where did you get that from?

So the demon is in charge of "imagination and memory and the sensitive powers of the body" and somehow it's not then also manipulating the will? What is a person going to will that isn't dependent on his imagination and memory?

 

[Eloy Craft]

Where did you get that from?

I used to be fascinated with exorcism's and read books written by Priests who are exorcist's. The first one I had to put down for a while. A bit disturbing. These guys know how the demons do things and why. What it's doing to their victim.

So the demon is in charge of "imagination and memory and the sensitive powers of the body" and somehow it's not then also manipulating the will? What is a person going to will that isn't dependent on his imagination and memory?

In charge mmm more like has rights to take possession of. No one can take ownership of our will though. The demon can get behind the wheel but it can be against the owners will.

 

[RDKirk]

I used to be fascinated with exorcism's and read books written by Priests who are exorcist's. The first one I had to put down for a while. A bit disturbing. These guys know how the demons do things and why. What it's doing to their victim.
In charge mmm more like has rights to take possession of. No one can take ownership of our will though. The demon can get behind the wheel but it can be against the owners will.

What difference does it make?

(Not to mention, scripture denies free will even exists anyway.)