Spiritual warfare vs demonology

jayem

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I have a true story from early in my medical training. A 20-something man was admitted from the ER. His family said he was in his usual state of health until abut 6 weeks or so earlier. At first he became withdrawn and uncommunicative--sometimes seeming like he was in a fog. Very unlike him. He couldn't go to work. He ate very little. He said he was hearing voices telling him terrible and threatening things. What other conversation he made was rambling and senseless. When he wasn't shouting at the unseen voices, he began babbling incoherently or making dog-like barking noises. His family was certain he was demon-possessed. For several days, their pastor came to house and they all prayed for the young man's deliverance. Initially, he seemed to calm down. He wasn't screaming, but he wasn't communicative at all. After a day or so during which time he was just lying in bed, staring with his eyes open, not moving, not eating or drinking, and not responding to stimuli, he was finally brought to the ER. There was no history of any prior medical problems, no head injury, and his family was certain he didn't use drugs. The medical work-up showed he was dehydrated, but x-rays, and a brain scan were negative. It was obvious that this man had suffered an acute schizophrenic episode, and was in a catatonic state. He was admitted to the psychiatric service, started on IV fluids, and injections of Haldol every 4 hours. By the next morning, he had woken up, was walking around the ward, drinking coffee, and talking coherently and cooperating with the medical staff. I remember this so clearly, because it was the most incredible turn-around in a patient's condition I'd ever seen.

I suppose one can't definitely say this was NOT a case of demonic possession. But I don't know what kind of demon will resist several days of prayer, but then get chased away in hours by an anti-psychotic drug.
 
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Lily of Valleys

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I have a true story from early in my medical training. A 20-something man was admitted from the ER. His family said he was in his usual state of health until abut 6 weeks or so earlier. At first he became withdrawn and uncommunicative--sometimes seeming like he was in a fog. Very unlike him. He couldn't go to work. He ate very little. He said he was hearing voices telling him terrible and threatening things. What other conversation he made was rambling and senseless. When he wasn't shouting at the unseen voices, he began babbling incoherently or making dog-like barking noises. His family was certain he was demon-possessed. For several days, their pastor came to house and they all prayed for the young man's deliverance. Initially, he seemed to calm down. He wasn't screaming, but he wasn't communicative at all. After a day or so during which time he was just lying in bed, staring with his eyes open, not moving, not eating or drinking, and not responding to stimuli, he was finally brought to the ER. There was no history of any prior medical problems, no head injury, and his family was certain he didn't use drugs. The medical work-up showed he was dehydrated, but x-rays, and a brain scan were negative. It was obvious that this man had suffered an acute schizophrenic episode, and was in a catatonic state. He was admitted to the psychiatric service, started on IV fluids, and injections of Haldol every 4 hours. By the next morning, he had woken up, was walking around the ward, drinking coffee, and talking coherently and cooperating with the medical staff. I remember this so clearly, because it was the most incredible turn-around in a patient's condition I'd ever seen.

I suppose one can't definitely say this was NOT a case of demonic possession. But I don't know what kind of demon will resist several days of prayer, but then get chased away in hours by an anti-psychotic drug.
Thanks for sharing. There are differences between purely mental illness, demon-induced mental illness, and demon possession. In many cases if there is no obvious history of the person having done anything to invite demons into their life, it would be helpful to first rule out mental illness by getting the person to try seeking medical treatment before considering the possibility of demonic oppression/possession.

Here are some interesting reads: a psychiatrist who is in the ministry of discerning if a case is mental illness or demon possession:

As a psychiatrist, I diagnose mental illness. Also, I help spot demonic possession.

A man of science confronts demonic possession - CNN
 
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GrowingSmaller

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I have a salafi friend who believes in Jinn possession. I think its nonsense, or a culture bound syndrome to be honest. He showed me this video, or similar. Apparently faith healing is a "science" which has developed over the centuries. Also as a side note the end of the world is nigh, as all the minor signs have materialised. Otherwise hes ok:

 
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DogmaHunter

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Yup, I invented it completely.
I put it there to illustrate a point to the previous poster.

Then your point can be dissmissed at face value.
Invented statistics don't make up for a good argument.

How many people have you come across who have undergone deliverance from demons?

None that could actually demonstrate it.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Many many years ago in our home group we had a married couple, and the lady's mother was very elderly and lived with them in a granny flat.

The elderly lady was chronically sick much of the time with a long list of ailments and our friends would often come in asking for prayer.

The old lady was a believer and very tired and really just wanted to go home to be with the Lord. She more feared living on in ill health than dying.

At one home group meeting, as often the case, the husband came in announcing that his wife was visiting her mother again in the hospital and would be arriving later. Again could we pray, particularly that the Lord would take her home instead of leaving her in pain.

This time, I suggested that rather than just praying, we ought to ask the Lord for discernment as to what was actually going on here, as our prayers were not being answered.

So we asked for discernment, and then waited for the Lord to answer. After a few minutes, I saw a picture/vision. In the spirit, could clearly see a human heart, but it had a really evil black entity completely surrounding and enclosing it. This evil entity was pumping away keeping the blood flowing like a heart massager!

I described what I had seen to the group for confirmation. It seemed very clear to everyone that this evil demon, by simply pumping her old and otherwise failing heart,
was keeping the old lady alive and in constant torment.

I then stood up and pointed at the demon I had seen in the vision. I simply said, "In the name of Jesus, I take authority over you evil spirit that's pumping Janet's heart, and I command you let her go and to get out of her right now."

That was all we did and the meeting continued much as usual.

About ten minutes later the phone rang and I answered. It was the old lady's daughter. "Can you tell Dick that mum has just died."
I asked when it had happened, "Ten minutes ago." she replied.

At the precise moment we commanded it to go, her elderly mother was released from the demonic bondage that had kept her in horrible pain for years. Just as she had asked, she went home to the Lord that night.

Argument by ancedote
and
correlation does not imply causation.
 
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Dave-W

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There is another thread entitled, "Why do atheists believe Christians and religious are delusional?" Like this thread, there is a lot of talk regarding demons and I say this without any malice, but some of the posts from Christians on these two threads go a long way to explain why atheists think that Christians and the religious are delusional. Some of the posts read like the outline of the plot for the next Lord of the Rings movie. Pure fantasy!
I am sure it would seem like that.

Indeed, if you are unaware of the spiritual realm that surrounds us, any talk of it would appear as utter foolishness and idiocy.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I am sure it would seem like that.

Indeed, if you are unaware of the spiritual realm that surrounds us, any talk of it would appear as utter foolishness and idiocy.


Yes. Much like how alien abductees or the "elvis is still allive!" people, are usually met with ill-conceived laughter. Eventhough those people take their beliefs very seriously.
 
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DogmaHunter

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What do you mean by "demonstrate it?"

Hahaha...

This reminds me of something Lawrence Krauss once said when he was ranting about theologians....

I'll paraphrase:
"If I were to ask a physicist, chemist, biologist,... what contribution to the advancement of human knowledge their particular fields have made the past centuries, they'ld instantly reply with 'here' and 'this' and 'that',... But when you ask a theologian the same question about theology, they usually respond with '...what do you mean by knowledge?'"

Your response smells very much the same.

To support with objective evidence.
To show how the claim reflects actual reality.
To show that demons don't only exist in your head.

I've never met someone who could demonstrate his "experience" with demons to me, just like I (and probably you too) have never met an alien abductee who could demonstrate his "experience" with aliens either.
 
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DogmaHunter

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You still did not answer the question.

Except that I did:

To support with objective evidence.
To show how the claim reflects actual reality.
To show that demons don't only exist in your head.


Having repeated that....
Not really sure why you need to ask the question. It's not like "demonstrate" is such an exotic or technical word that would require a dictionary or special explanation, right?
 
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Dave-W

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I have no idea of what you would accept as an adequate demonstration.

Can you demonstrate or prove to me that you felt a certain emotion (fear, anger, sadness, joy) yesterday?

Those emotions are more of this world than demons are, so proving their existence is even more difficult.
 
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Dave-W

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Seeing demons manifest in a person when I was about 8 or 9 years old. Scarey stuff.

When the movie "Exorcist" came out in 1974, it was boring old hat (even though everyone else was freaking out) I had already seen every thing IRL their special effects did, except for her head turning around 360°.
 
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Francis Drake

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I am sure it would seem like that.

Indeed, if you are unaware of the spiritual realm that surrounds us, any talk of it would appear as utter foolishness and idiocy.
Indeed, some of these conversations are like discussing music with a man stone deaf from birth, or waxing lyrical about the sunset to a man blind from birth.
 
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jayem

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Thanks for sharing. There are differences between purely mental illness, demon-induced mental illness, and demon possession. In many cases if there is no obvious history of the person having done anything to invite demons into their life, it would be helpful to first rule out mental illness by getting the person to try seeking medical treatment before considering the possibility of demonic oppression/possession.

Here are some interesting reads: a psychiatrist who is in the ministry of discerning if a case is mental illness or demon possession:

As a psychiatrist, I diagnose mental illness. Also, I help spot demonic possession.

A man of science confronts demonic possession - CNN

A qualified medical, or psychological evaluation is always the first, and most important step in dealing with any kind of abnormal behavior. And I agree with one of the psychiatrist's points:

In some circles, there is a tendency to become overly preoccupied with putative demonic explanations and to see the devil everywhere.

As we found out later, our patient's family belonged to some small, very fundamentalist, Pentecostal type church. During the services, members were worked up into abnormally heightened emotional states. They talked in tongues, and fell on the floor in some kind of spiritual rapture. The pastor apparently emphasized the dangers of Satan and demonic forces. So these people had a mindset that evil supernatural entities were real, and had a goal of destroying righteous believers. And if there is a villain in this case, I'd say it's the pastor. This man was obviously medically unsophisticated. But it's still beyond me how anyone can be so blinded by his beliefs that he will substitute several days of religious rituals for professional medical care. Especially when a patient is so clearly ill.
 
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Par5

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Indeed, some of these conversations are like discussing music with a man stone deaf from birth, or waxing lyrical about the sunset to a man blind from birth.
I agree. I have the same problem when I tell people about the leprechaun that lives at the bottom of my garden. His name is Padraig, he is six inches tall and 345 years old which is actually quite young for a leprechaun and he makes little shoes for the fairies in the nearby forest. He delivers the shoes in a cart pulled by a tiny unicorn. The unicorn does tend to leave a mess in the garden, but it is good for the roses. I don't understand why people don't believe me when I tell them about Padraig and his unicorn because I see them plain as day and I have the best roses in the country.
I understand your frustration.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I have no idea of what you would accept as an adequate demonstration.

Most likely, it will be the same kind of demonstration as what would convince YOU that claimed alien abductees were actually kidnapped by aliens.

There's no real reason why I choose that example btw. It's just something that I assume you don't believe in either. So ask yourself what would convince you of that...
Then you'll get close to what kind of evidence I would require to believe your religious claims.

Can you demonstrate or prove to me that you felt a certain emotion (fear, anger, sadness, joy) yesterday?

Those are things that exist in my head. We are not talking about what goes on inside our brains, we are talking about objective reality.

The existance of my personal emotions are dependend on me existing and my brain working. Is the same true for these demons? Do they only exist inside your head?

Those emotions are more of this world than demons are, so proving their existence is even more difficult.

My emotions are like properties of me. They are not things that exist in objective reality. Demons supposedly are.
 
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Dave-W

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There's no real reason why I choose that example btw. It's just something that I assume you don't believe in either. So ask yourself what would convince you of that...
Then you'll get close to what kind of evidence I would require to believe your religious claims.
I would have to experience that first hand - be abducted myself. Are you willing to experience having a demon or 2 manifest and be kicked out of your own body?
 
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