spiritual gifts in practice

[ByTheSpirit]

Any of you here that run house churches, or are in leadership of one have any specific practices as it pertains to spiritual gifts? Like do you allow time during fellowship to lay hands on the sick, or prophecy?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Ask because the group I go to doesn't really allow for that stuff in fellowship. That's not to say they don't allow them, I have yet to be told not to lay hands on the sick of the group, but I do so only after "official" teaching time has ended.

 

[EndTimeServant777]

Ask because the group I go to doesn't really allow for that stuff in fellowship. That's not to say they don't allow them, I have yet to be told not to lay hands on the sick of the group, but I do so only after "official" teaching time has ended.

We are learning how to flow and be led by the Spirit in our house church. Every time we have come together to fellowship and break bread the Spirit moves in a different way, whether it's deliverance, a word, or worshiping.

The Lord used my wife last week to speak a prophetic word to another sister. Like Paul wrote, when you come together one has a hymn, one has a teaching, or language etc.... let all be done so that all may be edified!

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I love my fellowship don't get me wrong, but something that is upsetting is the focus is more on apologetics than moving in the Spirit. Now there are some in leadership there who have confided in me concerning certain giftings but nothing in the group setting...

 

[TillICollapse]

I love my fellowship don't get me wrong, but something that is upsetting is the focus is more on apologetics than moving in the Spirit. Now there are some in leadership there who have confided in me concerning certain giftings but nothing in the group setting...

Do you frequently experience the Holy Spirit and the gifts out in public, in the every day, away from any organized group of believers, so to speak ?

 

[ezeric]

I love my fellowship don't get me wrong, but something that is upsetting is the focus is more on apologetics than moving in the Spirit. Now there are some in leadership there who have confided in me concerning certain giftings but nothing in the group setting...

Its great that you enjoy your fellowship time.

But there is no 'leader' per se, but JESUS.
Everyone else playing their part (different gifts) as the SPIRIT moves.
Still, 'test everything', to see if it passes the love test. (done for the benefit
or edification of all the saints - not flesh & selfish).

The group should be open to that.
The group should have NO problem with JESUS being the head and leader.
All the rest are brothers and sisters, as JESUS reminded us "do not lord
yourself over others like the gentiles do" Matthew 20:25

You are ONE body with JESUS the head over it all.

Now, in Toronto area where I am in, we have folks with different gifts.
Some have prophetic, others teaching, others wisdom, others faith.
But its not all at once, as you prefer others better than yourself, and let
the SPIRIT flow in love (patience with each other).

There is a grace-flow to it all.
Its fun, its funny at times, its joyful, its informative, its powerful its SPIRIT.

-eric

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Its great that you enjoy your fellowship time.

But there is no 'leader' per se, but JESUS.
Everyone else playing their part (different gifts) as the SPIRIT moves.
Still, 'test everything', to see if it passes the love test. (done for the benefit
or edification of all the saints - not flesh & selfish).

The group should be open to that.
The group should have NO problem with JESUS being the head and leader.
All the rest are brothers and sisters, as JESUS reminded us "do not lord
yourself over others like the gentiles do" Matthew 20:25

You are ONE body with JESUS the head over it all.

Now, in Toronto area where I am in, we have folks with different gifts.
Some have prophetic, others teaching, others wisdom, others faith.
But its not all at once, as you prefer others better than yourself, and let
the SPIRIT flow in love (patience with each other).

There is a grace-flow to it all.
Its fun, its funny at times, its joyful, its informative, its powerful its SPIRIT.

-eric

Well of course only Jesus is the leader of the group, but when someone teaches they are "leading" the group per se. My comment was meant more towards the attitudes of some in authority over the whole towards giftings. Church authority is scriptural.

 

[Stefos]

Do you frequently experience the Holy Spirit and the gifts out in public, in the every day, away from any organized group of believers, so to speak ?

Hi TillICollapse,

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit were given for believers not non-believers.

That's scripture, not me.

There IS a principle however of the prophetic gifting being used to "reveal the secrets of one's heart" insofar as non-believers go however.

Also, What do you mean by "experience the Holy Spirit?"
Audible voice, visions, etc.?
Or
Inner prompting to go here or there or to say this now particularly, etc.?

Thanks,
Stefos

P.S. We have to be clear about our understanding of these things.

 

[TillICollapse]

Hi TillICollapse,

Also, What do you mean by "experience the Holy Spirit?"
Audible voice, visions, etc.?
Or
Inner prompting to go here or there or to say this now particularly, etc.?

Thanks,
Stefos

P.S. We have to be clear about our understanding of these things.

I rearranged your post to start with the definition aspect first.

My post in this thread was directed at the OP poster specifically, thus I was using terminology somewhat loosely. However I'll explain what I personally would mean by the phrase "experience the Holy Spirit" in reference to you asking ...

By "experience the Holy Spirit" I mean, at a minimum, the presence of the Holy Spirit (often indicated by a physical response from the body, some common experiences often associated with the presence of the Spirit (i.e. wind type of experience, clarity, warmth or heat or rise in body temperature, a internal feeling of fire, perhaps even facial or body radiance, etc). To me, this would be a bare minimum, perhaps an anointing by the Spirit or being "in" the Spirit. Someone who has received the Spirit, may experience all of the above as well depending on the strength of the Spirit at that moment, an increase in the intensity of the "internal flame" (which is already present continually in such a person who has received the Spirit arguably), etc and so forth. Again, bare minimum. Beyond the minimum, there would be more obvious fruit: miraculous events and abilities (long list under this topic), prophetic understanding or knowledge, "signs and wonders", responses from the environment (i.e. perhaps by plants, animals, "life"), responses from other people and spiritual beings (usually of a dichotomous nature), the list goes on and on. I'm in no way being all inclusive here. The "stuff of life itself" is present and this has an effect. Concerning your list specifically, I don't believe I've ever experienced the Holy Spirit in an "audible voice". I believe I've heard God's audible voice several times, as well as other voices. Visions, yes. Inner promptings, sure, in context.

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit were given for believers not non-believers.

That's scripture, not me.

That hasn't been my experience. I've seen people who claim to not believe in Christ (if that's what you mean by "believer"), experience the Holy Spirit.

There IS a principle however of the prophetic gifting being used to "reveal the secrets of one's heart" insofar as non-believers go however.

Well, I would chalk this up to an aspect of the Holy Spirit in general, regardless of a person's belief stance per se, although talking about issues dealing with the heart in this context are a can of worms. I'll prol stay away from the topic (it would also be a derail).

 

[Stefos]

I. By "experience the Holy Spirit" I mean, at a minimum, the presence of the Holy Spirit (often indicated by a physical response from the body, some common experiences often associated with the presence of the Spirit (i.e. wind type of experience, clarity, warmth or heat or rise in body temperature, a internal feeling of fire, perhaps even facial or body radiance, etc). To me, this would be a bare minimum, perhaps an anointing by the Spirit or being "in" the Spirit. Someone who has received the Spirit, may experience all of the above as well depending on the strength of the Spirit at that moment, an increase in the intensity of the "internal flame" (which is already present continually in such a person who has received the Spirit arguably), etc and so forth. Again, bare minimum. Beyond the minimum, there would be more obvious fruit: miraculous events and abilities (long list under this topic), prophetic understanding or knowledge, "signs and wonders", responses from the environment (i.e. perhaps by plants, animals, "life"), responses from other people and spiritual beings (usually of a dichotomous nature), the list goes on and on. I'm in no way being all inclusive here. The "stuff of life itself" is present and this has an effect. Concerning your list specifically, I don't believe I've ever experienced the Holy Spirit in an "audible voice". I believe I've heard God's audible voice several times, as well as other voices. Visions, yes. Inner promptings, sure, in context.

II. That hasn't been my experience. I've seen people who claim to not believe in Christ (if that's what you mean by "believer"), experience the Holy Spirit.


I want to address each point that I have retitled as Roman numerals I & II respectively.

I. The REAL Holy Spirit lives inside of people who are likewise spirits.

Actually the bible says "God's spirit becomes one with our spirit."

Insofar as miracles and the external environment "reacting" in a particular way to us...that is not biblical.

Apostles ministries are characterized by "Signs, Miracles and displays of power." No other ministry in the New Testament shows this kind of "God hallmarkings" whatsoever. Not the Prophets ministry, Pastors ministry, Teachers or Evangelists ministry.

The gifts are given to individual believers for the local body of Christs growth, correction, teaching, encouragement, protection (Gift of the discerning of spirits for example), etc.
This is a body thing we're dealing with and not an individualistic thing, per se, that we are dealing with.....it never was just about 1 person who is/was the "Go To guy/girl." That is reserved for the Lord Jesus only.

You have some awkward theology there my friend, Where did you get it from?

II. People who don't believe in Christ can and have experienced God.

This is a moot point really. I've never believed otherwise.

I personally have experienced nothing but resistance and downright hate when I bring up the bible. I haven't had the Lord dynamically move through me towards non-believers.
I do have a prophetic gifting as well as others.

Why are people upset? Because people have been taught that the "Religion of Christianity" is the Catholic Church which has a warmongering & exclusivistic past (Crusades and Monasteries/Church orders is what I refer to) or it is the Protestants. Forget about people even hearing about Eastern Orthodoxy, Syriac/Ethiopian or other churches which America consistently neglects to utter a peep about.....True fact.

Christianity is a religion.....Relationship with God through Christ Jesus is categorically NOT.
Biblical Christianity is by and large NOT visible nor is it being taught virtually anywhere except in small circles.

Remember what I say....Talking about "Christianity" in the wrong circles will get you killed.
Talking about Jesus and the life that's found IN HIM is a different matter really.

Stefos

P.S. I do believe that God spoke to people outside of Israel before Christ.
The problem is discerning the facts from the fiction......I'll give an example:

Greek mythology: The Gods of Olympus fought the Titans.
One of the Titans is called Iapetos.
There is no Greek name called Iapetos......It is not Hellenic nor is it found used by any Greek.
The name Iapetos is a transliteration of the Hebrew Yapeth or Yapheth or Japheth, Noah's son.

See what I mean? Reality is stranger than fiction.

 

[TillICollapse]

I want to address each point that I have retitled as Roman numerals I & II respectively.

I. The REAL Holy Spirit lives inside of people who are likewise spirits.

Hmm, I'd have to think about the context of "likewise spirits" and some of the ramifications, but in the way I would use those terms, I would probably agree at this point.

Insofar as miracles and the external environment "reacting" in a particular way to us...that is not biblical.

Well that's my experience.

Apostles ministries are characterized by "Signs, Miracles and displays of power." No other ministry in the New Testament shows this kind of "God hallmarkings" whatsoever.

Not the Prophets ministry, Pastors ministry, Teachers or Evangelists ministry.

The gifts are given to individual believers for the local body of Christs growth, correction, teaching, encouragement, protection (Gift of the discerning of spirits for example), etc.
This is a body thing we're dealing with and not an individualistic thing, per se, that we are dealing with.....it never was just about 1 person who is/was the "Go To guy/girl." That is reserved for the Lord Jesus only.

When I've experienced the Holy Spirit in extraordinary ways, or seen others do so, I wasn't comparing them to apostles, prophets, etc. Concerning believers verses non, my own post was focused on asking the OP about experiencing the Spirit outside of traditional believer group settings.

You have some awkward theology there my friend, Where did you get it from?

Personal experience, living life, etc ?

II. People who don't believe in Christ can and have experienced God.

This is a moot point really. I've never believed otherwise.

K.

I personally have experienced nothing but resistance and downright hate when I bring up the bible. I haven't had the Lord dynamically move through me towards non-believers.
I do have a prophetic gifting as well as others.

I rarely bring up the Bible with nonbelievers. Personally, I'm typically obsessed with God, the Kingdom, freedom, wanting to protect loved ones and see them reach the Kingdom and experience it, defending against the enemy, exploring everything around me and what everything is all about, etc ... seeking what I can do daily, etc ... I rarely find myself bringing up the Bible. There will be times, quite often, the "non believers" are drawn to the Spirit and we end up going in that direction too, or caught up in aspects of God their eyes get opened too, etc. I mean, I'm speaking for myself here ... in my own personal life, I've seen amazing fruit with people. Some of it hard for even me to believe. The times I see them resist, it usually involves when they practically need to repent of some aspect of their life. Not a single "sin", rather, some aspect of their life which is resistant to crossing that threshold into full light. It's not usually what a person would think of ... it's usually something specific. Like, the strong man in their house. When they resist, it's like watching someone go from having a clear and clean house, back to having the strong man enter in. Otherwise, if they keep going, I've seen the beautiful stuff. Angels rejoicing I rarely, if ever, have to mention the Bible. God testifies on His own behalf, the Spirit testifies on His own behalf, reality speaks for itself. With believers, I find it differently.

I do have a prophetic gifting as well as others.

And you've never experienced using prophecy with "unbelievers" ? Care to share an example of when you did experience the gift of prophecy (regardless of the setting) ? If not, no worries. I would like to hear a story

Why are people upset? Because people have been taught that the "Religion of Christianity" is the Catholic Church which has a warmongering & exclusivistic past (Crusades and Monasteries/Church orders is what I refer to) or it is the Protestants. Forget about people even hearing about Eastern Orthodoxy, Syriac/Ethiopian or other churches which America consistently neglects to utter a peep about.....True fact.

Christianity is a religion.....Relationship with God through Christ Jesus is categorically NOT.
Biblical Christianity is by and large NOT visible nor is it being taught virtually anywhere except in small circles.

I think the reason people may get upset is more complicated than this ... a long, lengthy discourse going down a dark hole of discussion lol. For now, I'll avoid it ...

Remember what I say....Talking about "Christianity" in the wrong circles will get you killed.
Talking about Jesus and the life that's found IN HIM is a different matter really.

Stefos

Yes I know it will get you killed.

P.S. I do believe that God spoke to people outside of Israel before Christ.
The problem is discerning the facts from the fiction......I'll give an example:

Greek mythology: The Gods of Olympus fought the Titans.
One of the Titans is called Iapetos.
There is no Greek name called Iapetos......It is not Hellenic nor is it found used by any Greek.
The name Iapetos is a transliteration of the Hebrew Yapeth or Yapheth or Japheth, Noah's son.

See what I mean? Reality is stranger than fiction.

I like reality "Awkward theology"

 

[Stefos]

Hmm, I'd have to think about the context of "likewise spirits" and some of the ramifications, but in the way I would use those terms, I would probably agree at this point.

Well that's my experience.

When I've experienced the Holy Spirit in extraordinary ways, or seen others do so, I wasn't comparing them to apostles, prophets, etc. Concerning believers verses non, my own post was focused on asking the OP about experiencing the Spirit outside of traditional believer group settings.

Personal experience, living life, etc ?

K.

I rarely bring up the Bible with nonbelievers. Personally, I'm typically obsessed with God, the Kingdom, freedom, wanting to protect loved ones and see them reach the Kingdom and experience it, defending against the enemy, exploring everything around me and what everything is all about, etc ... seeking what I can do daily, etc ... I rarely find myself bringing up the Bible. There will be times, quite often, the "non believers" are drawn to the Spirit and we end up going in that direction too, or caught up in aspects of God their eyes get opened too, etc. I mean, I'm speaking for myself here ... in my own personal life, I've seen amazing fruit with people. Some of it hard for even me to believe. The times I see them resist, it usually involves when they practically need to repent of some aspect of their life. Not a single "sin", rather, some aspect of their life which is resistant to crossing that threshold into full light. It's not usually what a person would think of ... it's usually something specific. Like, the strong man in their house. When they resist, it's like watching someone go from having a clear and clean house, back to having the strong man enter in. Otherwise, if they keep going, I've seen the beautiful stuff. Angels rejoicing I rarely, if ever, have to mention the Bible. God testifies on His own behalf, the Spirit testifies on His own behalf, reality speaks for itself. With believers, I find it differently.

And you've never experienced using prophecy with "unbelievers" ? Care to share an example of when you did experience the gift of prophecy (regardless of the setting) ? If not, no worries. I would like to hear a story

I think the reason people may get upset is more complicated than this ... a long, lengthy discourse going down a dark hole of discussion lol. For now, I'll avoid it ...

Yes I know it will get you killed.

I like reality "Awkward theology"

I too "like reality" as I'm not given to flights of fancy and nonsense! Thanks

Insofar as the example I gave regarding non-believers knowing about God, it was merely 1 example which IS valid and was actually taught in Ancient Greek circles.
There is a book called "Eternity in their hearts"....Check it out and read it.
It'll give you a perspective past your own as it talks about God's dealings with cultures outside of ancient Israel. The writer of the book is a believer by the way.

I don't know if you have the Holy Spirit living inside of you as anyone can say anything here. However, I believe that you do.

The Lord has given me prophetic things for non-believers but primarily it's been for believers.
By the way, this is a "story" but it actually happened in real time.
Ex. One person I know was depressed and he didn't know why.
The Lord told me that he was depressed because he blamed himself for the suicide of another person that he knew and was living in it.
There was no "normal" way I could have known this.

Prophetic word #2:
I was at a Christian conference and I was introduced to a person by an acquaintance.
At that time, I trusted no one when they said "I'm called as an X, Y, Z (Pastor, Prophet, Evangelist, etc.)
I asked the Lord who this person was...The Lord had said that he was a Deacon and out of that ministry he functioned as a Pastor.
Upon stating this to the person, it was confirmed through his friend that he was a deacon in their fellowship and that he was a Pastor as well.
Again, I didn't know this through conversation or inference. The Lord revealed it.

Our Theology needs to be word based and not "my experience" based.
If we read our experience into the word, we get screwed up.
We don't neglect our experience but we contextualize it as life isn't a series of cookie cutter moments.
We need to let the written word speak to us via the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit leads us into all the truth.

Stefos

 

[TillICollapse]

I too "like reality" as I'm not given to flights of fancy and nonsense! Thanks

I didn't mean anything personal by what I said, it was in response to "Reality is stranger than fiction." I can't tell with this comment here if you took it personally or not. If you did, it wasn't my intention

Flights of fancy ... yes Nonsense, blah lol

Insofar as the example I gave regarding non-believers knowing about God, it was merely 1 example which IS valid and was actually taught in Ancient Greek circles.

There is a book called "Eternity in their hearts"....Check it out and read it.
It'll give you a perspective past your own as it talks about God's dealings with cultures outside of ancient Israel. The writer of the book is a believer by the way.

I think I may have read some of that ... I usually read things in bits and pieces, and I think I may have read parts of that book at one time. I have no problem with the idea that God can reveal Himself to whomever He chooses, at any point in history, though.

I don't know if you have the Holy Spirit living inside of you as anyone can say anything here. However, I believe that you do.

Hmm.

The Lord has given me prophetic things for non-believers but primarily it's been for believers.
By the way, this is a "story" but it actually happened in real time.
Ex. One person I know was depressed and he didn't know why.
The Lord told me that he was depressed because he blamed himself for the suicide of another person that he knew and was living in it.
There was no "normal" way I could have known this.

Prophetic word #2:
I was at a Christian conference and I was introduced to a person by an acquaintance.
At that time, I trusted no one when they said "I'm called as an X, Y, Z (Pastor, Prophet, Evangelist, etc.)
I asked the Lord who this person was...The Lord had said that he was a Deacon and out of that ministry he functioned as a Pastor.
Upon stating this to the person, it was confirmed through his friend that he was a deacon in their fellowship and that he was a Pastor as well.
Again, I didn't know this through conversation or inference. The Lord revealed it.

Hey that's cool I may be unnecessarily dissecting things into their finer components here label-wise, but personally I would label those things as "words of knowledge".

Our Theology needs to be word based and not "my experience" based.
If we read our experience into the word, we get screwed up.
We don't neglect our experience but we contextualize it as life isn't a series of cookie cutter moments.
We need to let the written word speak to us via the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit leads us into all the truth.

Stefos

In general, I'm an "experience first" type of person, especially when it comes to studying the nature of God.

 

[Stefos]

I didn't mean anything personal by what I said, it was in response to "Reality is stranger than fiction." I can't tell with this comment here if you took it personally or not. If you did, it wasn't my intention

Flights of fancy ... yes Nonsense, blah lol

I think I may have read some of that ... I usually read things in bits and pieces, and I think I may have read parts of that book at one time. I have no problem with the idea that God can reveal Himself to whomever He chooses, at any point in history, though.

Hmm.

Hey that's cool I may be unnecessarily dissecting things into their finer components here label-wise, but personally I would label those things as "words of knowledge".

In general, I'm an "experience first" type of person, especially when it comes to studying the nature of God.

Those were words of knowledge however subsequently the Lord told me to speak to them regarding more about them other than the immediate word of knowledge.....Then it does become a prophetic word.

TillICollapse, I doubt you are a Christian because you say the "nature of God" which sounds removed and intellectual and not "intimate" for lack of a better term.

My friend the nature of God is Love....God is Love scripture teaches.
That quality of love is not emotion nor is it sex.
The first chapter of the letter to the Corinthian church describes it, as does the letter to the Galatians, Chapter 5:19-21

God also is a spirit. We become children of God by accepting what Jesus did by his crucifixion which was to bring God and man back together again communion wise. The New Testament says God's spirit becomes one with our spirit making us children of God. That's the key.

I went through demonic oppression and I did everything I knew how: Prayer, reading the bible, fasting, Christian praise & worship...nothing released me from the oppression. One day when I was doing my mail route in a company car as I was listening to Christian praise & worship a song came on the radio from a ministry based in the suburbs of Boston, this was back in the mid 90's. I was immediately delivered and had peace from the top of my head to the tips of my feet, literally. The Lord removed the oppression.
So I do understand the Presence of the Lord in a tangible way.

I have also given "Prophetic words proper" in fellowships before.
No words of knowledge...I have both the gift of the word of knowledge and I have a calling as a Prophet and a Teacher.

So, there we have it
Stefos

 

[TillICollapse]

Those were words of knowledge however subsequently the Lord told me to speak to them regarding more about them other than the immediate word of knowledge.....Then it does become a prophetic word.

As I said, "I may be unnecessarily dissecting things into their finer components here label-wise ..."

TillICollapse, I doubt you are a Christian because you say the "nature of God" which sounds removed and intellectual and not "intimate" for lack of a better term.

Before you edited this, I think you said directly that I wasn't a Christian, or that you know I'm not, or something to that effect.

When you said, "Our Theology needs to be word based and not "my experience" based." ... I realized that I hadn't ever actually looked up the literal definition of "theology". When I looked it up, I saw it said, "The study of the nature of God ...". That's why I included that phrase "nature of God", because I was trying to relate to YOUR use of the word "Theology".

However if you doubt what you'd like to call me (Christian, etc), I realize I won't pass muster with everyone.

My friend the nature of God is Love....God is Love scripture teaches.
That quality of love is not emotion nor is it sex.
The first chapter of the letter to the Corinthian church describes it, as does the letter to the Galatians, Chapter 5:19-21

I'm familiar with Love, I learned it first hand.

God also is a spirit. We become children of God by accepting what Jesus did by his crucifixion which was to bring God and man back together again communion wise. The New Testament says God's spirit becomes one with our spirit making us children of God. That's the key.

I went through demonic oppression and I did everything I knew how: Prayer, reading the bible, fasting, Christian praise & worship...nothing released me from the oppression. One day when I was doing my mail route in a company car as I was listening to Christian praise & worship a song came on the radio from a ministry based in the suburbs of Boston, this was back in the mid 90's. I was immediately delivered and had peace from the top of my head to the tips of my feet, literally. The Lord removed the oppression.
So I do understand the Presence of the Lord in a tangible way.

I'm glad you experienced that from the Lord.

I have also given "Prophetic words proper" in fellowships before.
No words of knowledge...I have both the gift of the word of knowledge and I have a calling as a Prophet and a Teacher.

So, there we have it
Stefos

Do me a favor ... if you will, pray and see what you are shown concerning what to call or label me.

 

[Stefos]

Do me a favor ... if you will, pray and see what you are shown concerning what to call or label me.

I did just pray (an Old English term meaning ask) and the answer was to ask you directly:

Do you believe that Jesus is God and that he died on the cross for your sins?

Do you believe that the bible is God's message to humanity par excellence?

I know what theology means but the point here is for me to understand where you are coming from.

Do you belong to a denomination or not?

Please be straightforward as I have with you.

Stefos

 

[TillICollapse]

I did just pray (an Old English term meaning ask) and the answer was to ask you directly:

Interesting.

Do you believe that Jesus is God and that he died on the cross for your sins?

I'm not sure yet if I believe that Jesus is literally one and the same as God. Sometimes I believe He most definitely is, sometimes I see a distinction so clearly between the Father and Him, that I recognize the distinction and don't go beyond that. I'd say I'm somewhat in the same boat as Peter, in that He had a revelation from the Father that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God. I believe that, out of revelation. I would say that He and the Father are one, as He says. Yes I believe He carried our sin upon Him, through His death, etc.

Do you believe that the bible is God's message to humanity par excellence?

Technically, no ... I believe that everything God has done is a message to humanity par excellence, including creation. I'd honestly probably value the people and beings He's chosen to be citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven forever, as the most valuable message. Each individual, throughout history, weaving a story, a message, that will live on forever. I see what Jesus went through as showing us what His "pearl of great price" was ... us. I saw the love He had for us. That was part of a message I treasured, and it wasn't shown to me through the bible, it was shown to me by living in faith with Christ. I don't see the bible (I'm assuming you're talking about a standard Protestant one) as trumping all other messages par excellence, esp not Jesus and us.

I know what theology means but the point here is for me to understand where you are coming from.

Do you belong to a denomination or not?

I don't think that I do, since I don't draw any lines in the sand like that.

Please be straightforward as I have with you.

Stefos

I was straightforward in my answers ... and out of respect for you, I'll go one step further:

One of the few times I've heard the audible voice of what I recognize as the Father***, I heard Him say to me that I was His son.

That was perhaps one of the single most important things to me in my life, because it helped me know who I was in relation to Him. Not because I read it, or believed it, or had others tell me, but because He/Himself told me. I put my trust and confidence in Him as a Father at that time, in a way I never had. And I learned something about the humility of God ... something I see that is rarely taught. I learned that God took the time to earn my trust. God ... God told me that. And He actually took the time to DEMONSTRATE it to me. To show me, over years, one step at a time, caring and loving for me personally, respecting me ... He taught me personally what it was to earn trust. Something that was foreign to me. Instead of shoving things down my throat, or shaming me, or putting me in some spotlight to see if I measured up to His standard ... He took the time to FIRST show me what love was, and what it was to earn the trust of someone. Me. I felt like one in a billion. I felt special. I felt unique. I felt like an individual to God, like a prize of His. I felt ... loved. And what made that possible for me ? Jesus. And that was just the beginning.

I say this, because that is how I identify myself, when forced to identify. I identify myself by my name, and what God told me I was. Not what I told myself I was, or hoped I was. Pretty much the closest I come to putting a label on myself.

And also, if I see someone begin to size me up, and question my origins, or what my spiritual makeup is, who or what I side with, or to see whether or not I pass muster with them to where they can label me this or that, etc ... like you did ... instead of trying to convince them of something, I let them figure it out on their own. I let them put the labels on me. For one, because I'd rather have God testify on my behalf. If I testify on my own, what good is that ? It's my word only. However if God Himself were to decide to say something to a person, that is more valuable to me and precious than anything I could say about myself. And for two ... because it shows respect to the other person. I don't shove anything down your throat, or seek to defend or offend. If you want to know who or what I am,
then walk with me in life and find out on your own. Or ask God, see if you are shown. Otherwise, I try to give the same respect that God showed and taught me. I learned that from Jesus, and God.


*** I clarified that with "what I recognize as the Father" in case you personally decide something other about me.

 

[Stefos]

Thank you for being honest. You are appreciated.

The reason why I ask you is that according to the written word,
No one can say Jesus is Lord and mean it without the Holy Spirit.

Insofar as a revelation from the Father that Jesus is the Christ, I couldn't agree with you more.
Without revelation, a person will never know.

My "stance" is this:
Catholicism, Protestantism, Orthodoxy and all the other churchlets out there in the world are deviances from what God's written word clearly says.
This is beyond questioning.

I refer you to a very well researched book called "Pagan Christianity?"
This book is a tightly packed, yet readable and digestible encyclopedia on the history of Protestant practices and how Protestants have deviated from God's written word and how that deviation happened.

Another book along the lines of Catholicism is called "The Two Babylons" by a Rev. Alexander Hislop. In his book , written before the Vatican "councils" he essentially shows how pagan sub-systems were amalgamated into the church and how they caused believers to deviate from tbe biblical standard.

So, I understand your reluctance to label yourself.

I also want to be clear that harassing and haranguing people is not my style nor is it pleasing to God. It is not my intent to harass or harangue you. I only want clear answers about where people are coming from.

A lot of cults exist which say a lot of "christianese" things but they don't adhere to the written word's standard.
I don't care to discuss those cults.

Suffice to say that the book "Pagan Christianity?" squarely represents where I stand in the Lord about 98%, the other 2% are my own views about particular things and those things don't challenge any of the major points brought up by this particular book.

God bless you as you follow the Lord Jesus with an honest heart,
Stefos

 

[TillICollapse]

Thank you for being honest. You are appreciated.

You're most welcome

The reason why I ask you is that according to the written word,
No one can say Jesus is Lord and mean it without the Holy Spirit.

I'll get back to this point in a moment ...

Insofar as a revelation from the Father that Jesus is the Christ, I couldn't agree with you more.
Without revelation, a person will never know.

My "stance" is this:
Catholicism, Protestantism, Orthodoxy and all the other churchlets out there in the world are deviances from what God's written word clearly says.
This is beyond questioning.

Another book along the lines of Catholicism is called "The Two Babylons" by a Rev. Alexander Hislop. In his book , written before the Vatican "councils" he essentially shows how pagan sub-systems were amalgamated into the church and how they caused believers to deviate from tbe biblical standard.

Okay ... consider this for a moment if you will:

Revelations is replete with specific and certain world powers that will be on the stage, Mystery Babylon, The Beast, etc and so forth. I read The Two Babylons years ago, and already see the connections you're making.

But think about this for a moment: remove all the labels that these "churches" give themselves ... Orthodox this, Protestant that, whatever. Remove those labels, and instead consider JUST the labels in Revelations, and what they are describing. So for example, if you think Catholicism fits Mystery Babylon ... remove all the "Christianese" from them, and instead just apply what happens to Mystery Babylon.

Revelations 17 claims that God has put certain things in the hearts of some of these entities (like the ten horns for example) to accomplish his purpose. For example, the ten horns will hate the harlot, they will make her naked and desolate, etc and so forth. And in Revelations 18 we see that Babylon the Great will become a haunt for every unclean thing, demons, spirits, etc.

Soooo .... while we are on earth, and before the Judgement, when certain entities get removed and cast into the Lake of Fire, so on and so forth ... where are these "impurities" going to go ?

They will go to Babylon the Great. It will perhaps sort of be like their habitat here on earth. Jesus cast Legion into a group of pigs, not to the Abyss ... and so these "spirits" will have a place to go as well. Babylon the Great, will be their haunt. After being stripped naked, made desolate, etc.

So now look at all the mish-mash within "Christianity", and some of the evil therein. Consider for a moment that THIS IS WHERE THESE INFLUENCES GO. It is the place they are haunting until the Judgement. I don't want to say "By design", but sort of that way. It was put in the hearts of parts of the system to do that.

It's like ... if you want to find fish, you go look in a lake or an ocean. If you want to find poison, find a poisonous snake or a scorpion, etc. If you want to find prisoners, go to a prison. If you want to find a place where spirits run rampant, and deception occurs, and confusion, etc ... you go to Babylon the Great. Mystery Babylon, the mother of harlots. Forget the labels they give themselves, and the expectations you may have in looking there because they keep saying they are "Christian", etc. Instead, focus on what you shouldn't be surprised is there.

IOW ... you should EXPECT to find deviances there, BECAUSE of what is there. It may be disheartening and grievous, but it's not SURPRISING. Because those entities are going to be dealt with in certain ways here on earth, and sometimes I almost view it like flypaper. Such aspects of "religion" are like flypaper for those who are going to flock to Babylon so to speak.

In this regard, it's kind of like being in another territory. So the idea that it's all deviating ... well of course it is. And it's heading in specific directions, outlined in Revelations. I can see where it's being stripped down and laid bare more and more, being filled up.

I could go on and on, especially about how I even see most of it is "in plain sight", but I'll stop there for now

And I'm not saying that everything I just stated is my dogma 100%, just something I've thought about and considered. I haven't had a full revelation yet.

I refer you to a very well researched book called "Pagan Christianity?"
This book is a tightly packed, yet readable and digestible encyclopedia on the history of Protestant practices and how Protestants have deviated from God's written word and how that deviation happened.

So, I understand your reluctance to label yourself.

Suffice to say that the book "Pagan Christianity?" squarely represents where I stand in the Lord about 98%, the other 2% are my own views about particular things and those things don't challenge any of the major points brought up by this particular book.

Hmm ... I may check that book out. Interesting.

And reluctance to label myself is more than just "Christianity". I also am just not a fan of drawing those lines in the sand. In my experience, the power of God has the ability to transform even the most desolate wasteland. Ultimately, drawing lines in the sand tend to just keep ME from things and treasures I have yet to discover. Why box myself in ?

I also want to be clear that harassing and haranguing people is not my style nor is it pleasing to God. It is not my intent to harass or harangue you. I only want clear answers about where people are coming from.

A lot of cults exist which say a lot of "christianese" things but they don't adhere to the written word's standard.
I don't care to discuss those cults.

Okay, concerning the clear answers where people are coming from ... I'll circle back to the idea that no one can say Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit, or by the Spirit, etc.

I'm assuming you probably didn't mean that as a "magic phrase" lithmus test. I mean, anyone can physically say that. In my experience, even wayward spirits can say all manner of things. They often recognize God, they may even recognize the Holy Spirit, they often believe in God, and MAY even give lip service to Jesus, etc.

HOWEVER ... I have noticed that those who do not FOLLOW Jesus, have a strong reaction to His Spirit. When Jesus is present, or someone comes upon the Spirit of Jesus in someone, and that person or spirit isn't following Jesus ... they may have a strong reaction.

In my experience, a person who follows Jesus has Jesus as Lord over their life. This is different than just acknowledging that Jesus is Lord.

So personally, I'm not always concerned with those who acknowledge God is real, they believe in God, they confess Jesus is Lord, etc ... I notice an actual, physical and spiritual response, from those who either have Jesus as Lord over their life, or not. That's the big difference. So when I see that phrase, "No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit," ... I don't see that as having to do with the physical act of putting the words out there. Nor do I see it as having to do with someone who "really believes" Jesus is Lord. Again, spirits believe. I see it as having to do with someone who ACTUALLY has Jesus as Lord over their life. No one can CLAIM "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit, because those who do not have Jesus as Lord over their life, have a strong reaction to the presence of Jesus. So the lithmus test for me, is often their reaction to Jesus Himself and the Holy Spirit, not their claimed belief or words. Such words and belief may let me know their state of mind, or understanding. But if they see the Spirit of Jesus and say, "He's of the devil," or run the other direction, or lash out, or judge and condemn that spirit ... THAT is more of a lithmus test. So I don't see that phrase as being a formula, rather it's alluding to the actual presence of Christ as Lord and the Holy Spirit in someone's life. Hopefully you see what I'm getting at. Consider the Pharisee, and their response. Consider those who claimed Abraham as their Father, that they were children of God ... yet Jesus said otherwise. He was not Lord over them, and they misLABELED Him. Different spirit, different Lord in their life. The tools they were using to discern who Jesus was ... questioning Him, measuring Him according to their Law and religious standards, etc ... they didn't discern properly.

God bless you as you follow the Lord Jesus with an honest heart,
Stefos

Many thanks, and to you as well

 

[Receiver]

Any of you here that run house churches, or are in leadership of one have any specific practices as it pertains to spiritual gifts? Like do you allow time during fellowship to lay hands on the sick, or prophecy?

We have a structured meeting, Sundays & Wednesdays generally, lead from the front but all are encouraged to participate:

about 15 mins of choruses, "spiritual songs" with a 3 min. (approx) personal testimony from a member of how they found God and what happened since either during or after

Communion and hymn (sundays only)

2 or 3 gifts of tongues, each followed by a gift of interpretation (also from God's Spirit)

2 or 3 prophecies

Bible-based talk (words of wisdom and knowledge)

Prayer line: laying on of hands by male oversight, gifts of faith & healing

Notices, closing song & prayer, fellowship, food, opportunity for private chat / prayer / baptism.

- - - - -

It's worked well for decades and seems to me to be in accordance with the instructions given in 1 Corinthians 14.