Spiritual Deadness?

[PETE_]

Compulsion simply means being forced to think or act in a way determined by a force. Thus, according to RT, mankind is forced to reject Christ due to Total Spiritual Inability, until altered supernaturally by Irresistible Grace, where the person is forced to accept Christ. Compulsion from beginning to end. This truth remains, even if RT offers a redefinition of compulsion, such that if our will is altered, and then we willing come to Christ, that is not a form of compulsion. A rose by any other name... A moving the goal post falacy...

Drug addiction is a compulsion, but no one forces them to drink, swallow, or shoot up.

 

[Van]

Pete - compulsion is by force, but the force can be of any of a number of forces including chemical, human, or God, and saying that compulsion is not compulsion because the force is one and not the other seems not to address the actual meaning of the word.

 

[cygnusx1]

Pete - compulsion is by force, but the force can be of any of a number of forces including chemical, human, or God, and saying that compulsion is not compulsion because the force is one and not the other seems not to address the actual meaning of the word.

one needs to distinguish between necessity and compulsion. see John Calvin

 

[PETE_]

Pete - compulsion is by force, but the force can be of any of a number of forces including chemical, human, or God, and saying that compulsion is not compulsion because the force is one and not the other seems not to address the actual meaning of the word.

If that were true no one could ever stop taking drugs.

 

[cygnusx1]

( NASB: For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel. 1 Cor 9:16)

was Paul forced against his will ? Of course not!!

 

[Van]

Pete, the issue you raised was the meaning of compulsion, and being forced by chemicals, or humans or God is compulsion. To say that chemical addiction is not a compulsion argues that the compulsive force cannot be overcome by another force or else it is not complusive. This too redefines the meaning of the word, for if a person takes a drug at any time due to the power of the chemical addiction, the act was under the compulsion of the force.

Returning to topic RT asserts that our total spiritual inability compells us to reject the gospel, and that under the influence of total spiritual inability we are unable to accept the gospel in a manner that results in God crediting our faith as righteousness. Further, once according to Rt, our core character has been altered by Irresistible grace, we are unable to not come to Christ, so coming or going, RT teaches compulsion.

 

[Van]

Cyg, your point in post 86 makes my case, thanks. The fact of compulsion does not require going against a persons will.

 

[cygnusx1]

Cyg, your point in post 86 makes my case, thanks. The fact of compulsion does not require going against a persons will.

precisely!

Calvinists don't believe people a dragged screaming and kicking all the way to heaven , that is a distortion.

Neither do they believe in human autonomy , which is equally a distortion. God reigns even over men's wills , man is responsible.

It is God that turns men's hearts ........


Isaiah 6:10

Job 12:20; cf. Ezek. 7:26


Job 12:24 p.; cf. Psalm 107:40


"O Lord, why hast thou driven us mad and hardened our heart, that we may not fear thee?" [ Isaiah 63:17 ]

"I will harden his heart... so that he may not hear you [ Exodus 7:3-4]


"I will restrain his heart" [ Exodus 4:21].

Moses, indeed, declared to the people that it was the Lord who stiffened their hearts [Deuteronomy 2:30].

He turned their hearts to hate his people" [Psalm 105:25].


Isaiah 10:15


1 Samuel 16:14; 18:10; 19:9


2 Thessalonians 2:10-11

he tamed the hearts of the cruel nations to gentleness [cf. Psalm 106:46


1 Samuel 11:6

2 Samuel 17:14

1 Kings 12:10,14

Joshua 2:9

Deuteronomy 28:65; cf. Leviticus 26:36

Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old. Lamentations 5:21


If you need any more scripture to show God turns mens heart , then just ask van , I have more .

 

[PETE_]

Pete, the issue you raised was the meaning of compulsion, and being forced by chemicals, or humans or God is compulsion. To say that chemical addiction is not a compulsion argues that the compulsive force cannot be overcome by another force or else it is not complusive. This too redefines the meaning of the word, for if a person takes a drug at any time due to the power of the chemical addiction, the act was under the compulsion of the force.

Returning to topic RT asserts that our total spiritual inability compells us to reject the gospel, and that under the influence of total spiritual inability we are unable to accept the gospel in a manner that results in God crediting our faith as righteousness. Further, once according to Rt, our core character has been altered by Irresistible grace, we are unable to not come to Christ, so coming or going, RT teaches compulsion.

Again, compulsion is not force.

If I tied you to a chair and put a feast on the table across from you, you would starve to death because you had an inability to eat the food. If I came and changed your condition by releasing you from your bonds, you would eat. Not because you were forced, but the desire would be strong. That is compulsion-strong desire. We just do not have that strong desire until we are changed by God. Coercion is more like what you describe.

 

[Van]

Pete, the word compel means to force, drive or constrain. To neccessitate or pressure by force. From the roots (com=together, pel=drive) it literally means to drive together. RT's Irresistible Grace is said to compel us to come to Christ. RT's Total Spiritual Inability is said to constrain us from coming to Christ. Words have meanings.

 

[nobdysfool]

Pete, the word compel means to force, drive or constrain. To neccessitate or pressure by force. From the roots (com=together, pel=drive) it literally means to drive together. RT's Irresistible Grace is said to compel us to come to Christ. RT's Total Spiritual Inability is said to constrain us from coming to Christ. Words have meanings.

Is there something inherently "bad" in the Holy Spirit compelling us to come to Christ? You speak of it as though that were a terrible, evil thing for God to do. And yet, we have Luke 14:23.....

I dion't believe that you correctly understand the true depth and scope of Sin's effect on mankind, nor do you correctly understand the operation of the Holy Spirit in salvation. That is what separates us.

As I see it, you downplay the scope and depth of sin, and overextend the abilities of men, while setting aside the pre-eminence of the Holy Spirit in salvation. As a Calvinist, I am aghast at such wrong doctrine. And your continual pronouncements that you are right simply because you say so are not credible. Repeating the same thing over and over again does not establish it as true. It is vain repetition.

We know you oppose RT. You don't have to remind us constantly. All you're doing is insulting other believers with whom you disagree. Insulting us does not elevate your case.

 

[Van]

Is there something inherently "bad" in the Holy Spirit compelling us to come to Christ?

Yes because the assertion is unbiblical. Does the word translated compel in Luke 14:23 indicate the servants should use force or persuade them? Persuade them.

NBF we disagree on the subject of the effect of the fall upon mankind. I say the fall resulted in Limited Spiritual Ability, and you say the fall resulted in Total Spiritual Inability. However, Matthew 13:20-22 demonstrates my postion is valid, as does Hebrews 6:4-10, John 15, and a host of other passages. You cannot say that it is impossible to bring a person AGAIN to repentence, unless in some degree they turned to God in the first place. Hence they were seeking God, but were not saved, which demonstrates limited spiritual ability. We have some ability in our natural state, witness Romans 1 and 2, but we must pursue the righteousness of God by faith and not by the works of the Law Romans 9:30-33.

As I see it, you downplay the scope and depth of sin, and overextend the abilities of men, while setting aside the pre-eminence of the Holy Spirit in salvation.

Yes you say this, but since I say we are saved by grace through faith, my view puts God's mercy, and not men's ability front and center.

 

[nobdysfool]

Yes because the assertion is unbiblical. Does the word translated compel in Luke 14:23 indicate the servants should use force or persuade them? Persuade them. [/FONT]

NBF we disagree on the subject of the effect of the fall upon mankind. I say the fall resulted in Limited Spiritual Ability, and you say the fall resulted in Total Spiritual Inability. However, Matthew 13:20-22 demonstrates my postion is valid, as does Hebrews 6:4-10, John 15, and a host of other passages. You cannot say that it is impossible to bring a person AGAIN to repentence, unless in some degree they turned to God in the first place. Hence they were seeking God, but were not saved, which demonstrates limited spiritual ability. We have some ability in our natural state, witness Romans 1 and 2, but we must pursue the righteousness of God by faith and not by the works of the Law Romans 9:30-33.

Yes you say this, but since I say we are saved by grace through faith, my view puts God's mercy, and not men's ability front and center.

All you're trying to do is marginalize what I say, while offering nothing more than your own opinion. I reject such efforts as nothing more than personal insult.

You still have not produced one shred of proof that Matt. 13 shows any sort of spiritual ability. Your insistance amounts to nothing more than saying that receiving equals seeking. They are not the same thing.

If a person is walking down the street, and comes upon a street preacher proclaiming the Gospel, does the fact that the person was walking by at that time mean the he was seeking God? No. So it is with the Sower sowing seed some of which fell on rocky or thorny ground, or on the stony path. The seed is broadcast freely. Those whose hearts have been prepared by God (the good soil of the parable) are those of whom it is said that seed that fell in good soil and grows to yield fruit, an hundred-fold, sixty-fold, and thirty-fold.

I am astounded that you refuse to see what any farmer or gardener could tell you about soil, planting, cultivating, and reaping.

Bottom line: The receiving of the seed does not equal seeking God.

 

[cygnusx1]

All you're trying to do is marginalize what I say, while offering nothing more than your own opinion. I reject such efforts as nothing more than personal insult.

You still have not produced one shred of proof that Matt. 13 shows any sort of spiritual ability. Your insistance amounts to nothing more than saying that receiving equals seeking. They are not the same thing.

If a person is walking down the street, and comes upon a street preacher proclaiming the Gospel, does the fact that the person was walking by at that time mean the he was seeking God? No. So it is with the Sower sowing seed some of which fell on rocky or thorny ground, or on the stony path. The seed is broadcast freely. Those whose hearts have been prepared by God (the good soil of the parable) are those of whom it is said that seed that fell in good soil and grows to yield fruit, an hundred-fold, sixty-fold, and thirty-fold.

I am astounded that you refuse to see what any farmer or gardener could tell you about soil, planting, cultivating, and reaping.

Bottom line: The receiving of the seed does not equal seeking God.

 

[Van]

When we receive the gospel of Christ with joy, we are seeking God and His promise of salvation. I offered a boat load of scripture in support of my understanding. A person could walk by a preacher broadcasting the gospel of Christ and not accept it, but if it is received with joy, the person was seeking God.

I have never said nor implied that receiving equals seeking; what I have said is that if a person receives the gospel with joy, that indicates the person was seeking God, that they believe that God exists, and that they believe God rewards those who seek him.

 

[nobdysfool]

When we receive the gospel of Christ with joy, we are seeking God and His promise of salvation. I offered a boat load of scripture in support of my understanding. A person could walk by a preacher broadcasting the gospel of Christ and not accept it, but if it is received with joy, the person was seeking God.

There is no proof for that, it's just what you want to believe. Receiving does not equal seeking.

I have never said nor implied that receiving equals seeking; what I have said is that if a person receives the gospel with joy, that indicates the person was seeking God, that they believe that God exists, and that they believe God rewards those who seek him.

You have equated receiving with seeking, and you do it again in this post. Receiving does not equal seeking. QED

 

[Van]

There is no proof for that, it's just what you want to believe. Receiving does not equal seeking.

I provided the evidence from scripture that receiving the gospel with joy demonstrates the person was seeking God. If they reject the gospel then they were not seeking God.


I have never said nor implied that receiving equals seeking; what I have said is that if a person receives the gospel with joy, that indicates the person was seeking God, that they believe that God exists, and that they believe God rewards those who seek him.

The gospel says God loved the world, and if you receive this, you accept it. This demonstrates the person believes God exists. The gospel says whoever believes in Him shall not perish. If you receive this, you accept it. This demonstrates the person believes God rewards those who seek Him. Thus to receive the gospel with joy demonstrates the person was seeking God.

 

[cygnusx1]

There is no proof for that, it's just what you want to believe. Receiving does not equal seeking.



You have equated receiving with seeking, and you do it again in this post. Receiving does not equal seeking. QED

van will just repeat himself , his arguement has been shown faulty , so now the only thing left is repeat until others give in replying.......... and when that is the standard of debate reached , watching paint dry is far more stimulating bro.

 

[nobdysfool]

I provided the evidence from scripture that receiving the gospel with joy demonstrates the person was seeking God. If they reject the gospel then they were not seeking God. [/font]


I have never said nor implied that receiving equals seeking; what I have said is that if a person receives the gospel with joy, that indicates the person was seeking God, that they believe that God exists, and that they believe God rewards those who seek him.

The gospel says God loved the world, and if you receive this, you accept it. This demonstrates the person believes God exists. The gospel says whoever believes in Him shall not perish. If you receive this, you accept it. This demonstrates the person believes God rewards those who seek Him. Thus to receive the gospel with joy demonstrates the person was seeking God.

If someone gives you a gift for no obvious reason (no birthday, Christmas, etc.) then you were not seeking it, even though you received it. Thus, receiving does not and cannot equal seeking. The reasoning is faulty, and there is no scripture which teaches such a thing. This is made up out of whole cloth.

The faulty doctrines of the anti-RT zealots regarding Matt 13 20-22 have been shown to be unbiblical. They do not understand even the basics of agriculture, which when examined, show deeper truths in this passage.

Even though the anti-RT zealots continue to post their faulty doctrines, they have been exposed as faulty, and refuted, and nothing will change the fact that the faulty doctrines have been exposed. The Truth cannot be defeated.

 

[Van]

How did the person give the gift. Did he hand it to the person receiving. When the person put out their hands, they sought the gift. Was the gift something the person wanted, or something the person hated? When the person reached out his or her hands to take what he or she wanted, he or she was seeking the gift. QED

One of the truths that is proclaimed by Matthew 13:20-22 is that the unregenerate who receive the gospel with joy believe in God and believe God rewards those who seek Him. Therefore the RT premise of Spiritual Deadness is demonstrated false by Matthew 13:20-22. The correct understanding of the effects of the Fall upon mankind is that the result is limited spiritual ability, and the predisposition to sin.