Spiritual Abuse

angeltrue

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2016
1,153
532
67
NJ
✟27,118.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Spiritual abuse and anyone who thinks he is an untouchable guru is real, but that list was created by an atheist guru spreading secularist propaganda.
I agree that the items on the list can be misused; truth must be handled very carefully. I started looking for another list, and found some information that was good, from the article: 5 warning signs of spiritual abuse. I'm trying to discern whether the spiritual abuse I faced was due to pride, or caused by satan.

For those who experienced spiritual abuse, what do you believe is behind it - satan or sin?

Spiritual Abuse from Whom?

We know that we are not battling against flesh and blood but as Paul wrote, against wicked spirits in high places or places of prominence we could say but could they be from church leaders? Read the way Paul puts it in Ephesians 6:12 “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.” We might have a chance if it were against flesh and blood but against the evil spirits? No, we wouldn’t have a chance…not without God’s Spirit and armoring up with the Word of God and prayer. Remember when Jacob wrestled with God? It was no contest and although Satan and his minions are no match for God, we are no match for wicked spirits. We are still in a battle today, although Jesus’ work at Calvary sealed the enemies fate (John 12:31) he and his evil army is yet to be completely vanquished. Today we fight a spiritual battle every time we share the gospel and we pray the Holy Spirit will “open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me” (Acts 26:18). Isn’t that every Christian’s call (Matt 28:18-20; Acts 1:8)? We can know for sure that when we are laboring in the fields for the Lord’s glory, we will be opposed at every step for we are entering into enemy territory every time we proclaim Christ as the only way to be saved (Acts 4:12) so we shouldn’t be surprised and we must expect it but what are some of the warning signs of spiritual abuse from those who are church leaders and even the pastor?


Persecution from Other Believers

Have you noticed that persecution has stepped up in this world? Have you noticed the enemy has ramped up attacks around the world and even in your own world? Sadly, some of the greatest persecution that I get is from other believers over things that are non-essentials. No believer can be demon possessed but they can be influenced and sometimes the enemy loves to use other believers to attack other believers. Can you imagine anything more delightful for Satan? He must laugh with joy over these things because it discourages believers and destroys our testimony with unbelievers.
 
Upvote 0

Greg J.

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 2, 2016
3,841
1,907
Southeast Michigan
✟233,164.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The only Spiritual authority is Jesus Christ who is head of the Church.
Pastors are called to Shepard the Church ,not to sheer the sheep according to their mood.
Because of the task being difficult in conducting a Church that gives glory to God rather than the Pastor or Deacons or generous givers ,good Pastors are called not placed because of default of their degree on the wall.
All Churches have their individual structured beliefs.
We should not go to a Church that we disagree with nor should we cause any discord.
Simply leave.
One of many verses that show God gives people spiritual authority:

Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:17, 1984 NIV)
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,225
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,506,245.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
For those who experienced spiritual abuse, what do you believe is behind it - satan or sin?

My observation is that those who abuse tend to be very wounded people themselves.
 
Upvote 0

angeltrue

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2016
1,153
532
67
NJ
✟27,118.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My observation is that those who abuse tend to be very wounded people themselves.
You might be right - it would make sense. So what do others here think would be the right way to deal with pastors or leaders that are hurting others because they refuse to look within? The pastors who hurt my friend lorded their "positions" over my friend, my husband & I. I attempted to bring a neutral other pastor in, and they seemed afraid. In retrospect, I can see things more clearly than I did back then that it was spiritual abuse - back then I was just shocked at their pride, that was so evident, but they refused to see it, or own up to it. I think that when spiritual abuse is happening, it confuses you. I understand now, that spiritual abuse can be committed to two or more people, as they "feed off" each other. Looking back, I was glad we left that church. I just wonder if there is another way to handle it. I think we did all we could, and they remained adamant that they were right because they were in the positions. There was no accountability. My thoughts are evolving, but it was an independent church where that happened, so there was no oversight - no hierarchy that you could appeal to.
 
Upvote 0

angeltrue

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2016
1,153
532
67
NJ
✟27,118.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
One of many verses that show God gives people spiritual authority:

Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:17, 1984 NIV)

~~~ That is the very verse that abusers use ~~~ Can't any verse in the bible be misused? Can't an alcoholic misuse the verse about drinking for your health's sake? Can't an abusive husband use the verse that women should submit to their husband to dictate what she cooks, wears, or where she goes?

"The law is good, if it be used lawfully." 1 Timothy 1:8 - I think that verse is the crux. I was sitting here trying to gather my thoughts, and that verse came to me.

The Hebrews "submission" verse is in the bible, but when you see someone wielding their "authority" in a certain manner - I believe you can discern when it has become an abuse of power. This isn't easy. I think you really have to go before God, and face Him and yourself, to see "if there be any wicked way in me..." and "...first take the log out of your own eye..."

This is just the beginning of the hardship. I've seen it's a hard road to follow, because you're up against people who wield power over the church you're attending, or bible study, forum, or class. We are social beings, so some believers may know a leader is abusing authority and be unwilling to go against the leader and some, to stay in good graces with the leader, turn against you, in an "unspoken" code of conduct, or "conspiracy of silence."

This is an ugly truth about Christians, that most don't want to acknowledge. The verse: "...narrow is the road that leads to life, and few there be that find it..." may have application here. Those who seek truth, and live by the truth, no matter what - can this be what the verse is referring to? The 144,000 always puzzled me. There are more than 144,000 pastors in the world - so how can an average Jane or Joe hope to get to heaven?

In our experience at that church, the head pastor apparently went behind our backs and spoke with those from our bible study. The two couples shunned us, and it hurt. So the damage inflicted by those pastors not only damaged my friend's faith, and belief in churches, but it inflicted pain on my friend, my husband, and me.

A number of years have passed, and not once did I get a note, card, or call to see how we were, or none ever admitted to wrongdoing. I find it hard to think that a true believer can commit a sin like that, of pride, and continue on as if nothing happened. We were discarded. "...not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord..." God usually nags at my conscience if I do something wrong, so how can those pastors go on without God dealing with them? It makes me wonder if they really were true believers.

So how could those pastors justify their actions? I saw their actions - and their "fruit" as malevolent. This is an ugly truth that needs more recognition I think. Satan operates through people who hold positions within the church, Christian schools, media, forums, bible studies, and wherever a "leadership" position is.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

angeltrue

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2016
1,153
532
67
NJ
✟27,118.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
One of many verses that show God gives people spiritual authority:

Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:17, 1984 NIV)
I agree that leaving is an answer. One shouldn't sow discord, but what if you've invested time in a church, or other place, and you thought everything was okay, until an issue came up - such as that church's belief that anyone who is a Catholic is a heretic. You would want to try to work it out. But I've seen that spiritual abusers are unwilling to work it out - so leaving would be the only choice, unless you stay and live a lie. "...how can two walk together unless they be agreed..."
 
Upvote 0

inkaboutit

Member
Apr 19, 2017
23
11
73
CA
✟9,158.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
You know, this is just not true. People "talk back" to me all the time; I've never kicked anyone out of church. Never even thought to do such a thing.

As to your wider point, of course you're right that many churches have handled teaching on sexuality incredibly badly.

****inkaboutit4u.com**** You may not be the average Pastor or Leader of a Church. Sound like you way above average.

I read this article online about an LA CA Pastor Jeff Bowman

Nudist Pastor Kicked out of his Church in LA For being a Nudist

Pastor Jeff Bowman was NOT promoting Nudist in the Church at all. Someone in the Church reported it to the Church association and they came to the church and fired him.

Story behind this was that his brother did a 40 page research study about: "Can a Christian be a Christian nudist per the Bible." His 40 page Bible research concluded that, Yes, per the Bible a Christian can be a Christian nudist.

He gave the 40 pages to his Pastor brother , Jeff Bowman, he read it and agreed with it and he and his wife became Christian nudist. But that was his personal opinion he was not promoting it in the Church. But with no discussion he was fired.

If anyone does this proper Bible research, they will discover the same thing. God is extremely pro-nudist. God wanted and want 100% of his creation to be nudist.

If Adam and Eve ate from the, "Tree of (eternal) life", That would be heaven on earth and 100% of God's creation would be all nudist , including 100% humans, forever. This is how much God is extreme pro-nudist.

But Christians leaders choose to copy sinful Adam and Eve after they sinned and got corrupt, evil, confused thinking and put clothes (fig leaves) on to cover up God's creation and rebell against God's creation plan.

Christians are a "NEW CREATION" in Christ, just like Adam and Eve were NEW CREATION in Christ, before they sinned and rebelled against God. First thing they did was put on "clothes" or fig leaves and hide behind bushes and trees from God.

Christ is like the second Adam, he came to reverse what Adam did. Christians should do the same, reverse what Adam did and become nudist with a pure thinking mind from Christ.

Nude Exercise In Ancient Greece
The word "gymnasium" comes from the Greek root "gymnos," which means "nude." The literal meaning of "gymnasium" is "school for naked exercise." Athletes in the ancient Olympic Games participated in the nude.The custom of exercising nude was first introduced in the city-state of Sparta, according to legend. It spread through all of Greece. Athletes from every part of Greece came together for the Olympic Games, competing naked in various foot races, as well as the long jump, javelin throwing, discus throwing; even boxing and wrestling.

Times of the early Church, the Roman empire had over 150 Nude gymnasiums all 100% nude and in each complex was both a Christian Church and a Hebrew (Church) Synagogal .

In Bible days nudity was common, fishermen, fished in the nude, farmers, farm in the nude. Families would go to the river and bath in the nude. All would swim in the nude.

Most important of all , God himself made the Hebrews male PENIS a "SIGN" that the Hebrews were God's special people.

A "SIGN" is NOT to be hidden, but shown off to all people. ---Again God is clearly showing himself to be extremely pro-nudist.

Jesus wash the disciple feet in the nude. (yes i know he had only a towel around him at first, but you try to wash and dry 12 disciple feet, the towel quickly falls off you.)

Jesus was on the cross nude.

God commanded Prophet Israel to be nude for 3 years. All God's creation was 100% nude per God's desire, God's plan and God's design.

On my web site i have over 205 reasons supporting nudity. And many nude research article on nudity. Children greatly enjoy nudity. Most Children want to walk around nude, but parents force them to wear clothes.

Titus 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

2Co 5:17 - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Col 3:14 - And the most important piece of clothing you must wear is love. Love is what binds us all together in perfect harmony.

Ro 13:9 - For the commandments against adultery and murder and stealing and coveting – and any other commandment – are all summed up in this onecommandment: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Ro 13:8 - Pay all your debts, except the debt of love for others. You can never finish paying that! If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill all the requirements of God's law.

Ro 13:10 - Love does no wrong to anyone, so love satisfies all of God's requirements.


GOD'S WORD Translation
Romans 7:4 (GW) In the same way, brothers and sisters, you have died to the laws in Moses' Teachings through Christ's body. You belong to someone else, the one who was brought back to life. As a result, we can do what God wants.

New Living Translation
Romans 7:4 (NLT) So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God.

The Complete Jewish Bible
Romans 7:4 (CJB) Thus, my brothers, you have been made dead with regard to the Torah through the Messiah's body, so that you may belong to someone else, namely, the one who has been raised from the dead, in order for us to bear fruit for God.




 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Darkhorse
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,225
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,506,245.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
You might be right - it would make sense. So what do others here think would be the right way to deal with pastors or leaders that are hurting others because they refuse to look within? The pastors who hurt my friend lorded their "positions" over my friend, my husband & I. I attempted to bring a neutral other pastor in, and they seemed afraid. In retrospect, I can see things more clearly than I did back then that it was spiritual abuse - back then I was just shocked at their pride, that was so evident, but they refused to see it, or own up to it. I think that when spiritual abuse is happening, it confuses you. I understand now, that spiritual abuse can be committed to two or more people, as they "feed off" each other. Looking back, I was glad we left that church. I just wonder if there is another way to handle it. I think we did all we could, and they remained adamant that they were right because they were in the positions. There was no accountability. My thoughts are evolving, but it was an independent church where that happened, so there was no oversight - no hierarchy that you could appeal to.

I think any system with no oversight or accountability is a problem to start with. No church should operate that way.

I don't know that you had any other options in a system like that. Ideally, an abusive pastor should be able to be removed from office.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: inkaboutit
Upvote 0

angeltrue

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2016
1,153
532
67
NJ
✟27,118.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Your list has no context most of the stuff you have on here sounds like someone with an authority complex. Jesus Christ would be guilty of some of the things on your list. You need to give context.
I have to take the time to provide context - I'm limited due to other obligations, but will try.
 
Upvote 0

angeltrue

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2016
1,153
532
67
NJ
✟27,118.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
None of what is being discussed here is spiritual, other than legalism and that would be demonic.
You are describing convict and challenge theology that places guilt on the flock constantly.
It is most common in Churches who are independent fundamental Baptist but I'm sure others are the same way too.
The notion that what ever the Pastor says is true,no matter what God's Word says is a good sign.
They are small groups that stay in emotional turmoil due to trying to live up to the Pastors OCD problems.
Often the leadership has sin issues themselves such as lust and lies to cover their faults.
In the right environment not all of your points are bad,but when you feel worthless when you get out of Sunday prison ,you know you simply have to leave.
They will always be toxic and always quench the Spirit that dwells in you.
They run more people from God than they bring.
The doctrine is focused on the Church more than the Body of Christ.
Their ego will not let them approve of any other Churches other than one just like them miles away.
My advice is not to dwell on them just move on to a Church that is centered around Christ and the teaching of God's Word in proper context,not twisting it to make up stupid rules.

Matthew: 23. 27. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30. And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34. Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city
The bad experience we had was in an independent church, where I think spiritual abuse may be likelier to happen. There is no oversight or accountability to anyone other than the one to three pastors running the church.

Think of the damage those few pastors will do over time.

It's a lot of damage - unless someone is able to break through it. From what I saw, no one was willing to be honest. Those pastors not only committed sin - or did the devil's work - but they damaged, and brought others in on their sin: those in our bible study group. It was unimaginable that they presumed to be God's representatives, when they perpetrated dishonesty, hate, hypocrisy - the opposite of everything that Christ stands for.

"Positions" are exalted, Christ is not. How can we fight the evil one, when we have some pastors and leaders in Christian organizations doing his work?
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: now faith
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

angeltrue

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2016
1,153
532
67
NJ
✟27,118.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Spiritual abuse and anyone who thinks he is an untouchable guru is real, but that list was created by an atheist guru spreading secularist propaganda.

Unless it's a cult, public education or the government I don't see how that can happen. In my church it's a dogma to believe in the Holy Trinity and in the Nicene Creed. You cannot join it without making a confession of that faith and "adopting" that teaching as absolute truth. Of course if you do not believe in it don't join and/or your free to leave if you change your mind.
My experience was with an independent church. I wouldn't say it was a "cult" but maybe Christ would. There was no issue over beliefs, the issue was the pastors believed their decisions were ordained by God, and weren't to be questioned.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

angeltrue

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2016
1,153
532
67
NJ
✟27,118.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
****inkaboutit4u.com reply *******I think one of the big abuse is over sexuality.

Until the open internet there was never any open non-attacking talk about sexuality. If you disagree with the church you may be kicked out of the church.

In the old days if you disagree with the church they burned you at the stake.

There is NO talking back to any Pastor of any Church, you would kicked out.

Masturbation, is Clearly NOT a sin. In Leviticus 15:16-18 it clearly talks about masturbation and clearly there is NO sin offering required at all. Meaning that under the most strictest ceremonial law in all the Bible, that masturbation is NOT a sin of any kind.

Also in the Bible days they would also have loving natural sexual fantasy that goes along with sexual pleasure is also not a sin under the most strictest ceremonial laws.

No other verses anywhere in the whole Bible clearly describe masturbation and clearly no sin at all.

But today most all Pastors ignore this or minimize this verse and bring up other verses out thin air that does not even talking about masturbation at all and pass major condemnation on everyone and create major contradiction to Leviticus 15:16-20.

Young Church going youth have committed suicide over the man made shame and guilt trip over masturbation.

A 16 year old Mormon boy hung himself and he left a letter to his father saying he hated himself so much he could not live with himself because he could not overcome masturbation so he hung himself.

I put that on a forum and someone told me they learned that a Christian girl was thinking of committing suicide over the same reason, masturbation.

The Bible college I went to, i found out the year before a Bible College student went to an island in middle of the river and chopped his right hand off and ended up bleeding to death. Guilt over masturbation kills people. He thought he was doing Matthew 5:27-30, meaning he must have thought masturbating would send him to hell. Totally taken out of context and misunderstood it.

I heard of a 50 year old man cutting off his penis because he could not overcome masturbation.

A story on my web site a 46 year old Christian man try his whole life time to overcome masturbation but failed his whole life time. Life time of man made shame and guilt over masturbation that is not even a sin in the Bible.

Masturbation clearly NOT a sin in the Bible. So why don't they teach Leviticus 15:16-18 properly, instead they take verses like Matthew 5:27-31 totally out of context and mislead people into a life time of shame and guilt over something that is not a sin at all.
I recall reading James Dobson addressed that, and said Scripture is silent about that issue. To instill shame in people to the point that they end their life is unthinkable. Derek Prince said that act opens up to demonization. I don't know if he's right or not. But it would seem that heavy infliction of guilt would be spiritual abuse. One's sexuality is private, I think, as long as you follow scripture. I don't think pastors or church members need to be involved in someones private life, and there is something wrong with someone who does.

It might be the same type of judgmental spirit at work. Because someone holds a "position" they believe they have the God-ordained right to exceed their authority. It seems the whole "submission" issue has caused confusion.
 
Upvote 0

angeltrue

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2016
1,153
532
67
NJ
✟27,118.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There's some different ways to define spiritual abuse. The one I understand is something like: Being hurt by anyone who you believe has the right to expect something from you. If you can dig into what that means and understand why it is more deeply, you will acquire a stronger shield against it. It is essentially a product of evil.

It is more common to see spiritual abuse as being hurt by someone in authority when they think they have the right to speak into your life because of their connection with God, and usually about a spiritually-related subject. If they are doing this when you have not chosen to come under their spiritual authority, I'd flee these people. Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to find anyone worthy of spiritual authority, but a person might not be so bad if they are genuinely humble. It is realistic and good to seek oversight from such people, but do not be hasty in yielding to their authority. Get to know them first. If they are good for you, you may very well come to desire their advice, instruction, and/or help.

Why yield authority to anyone? Because then you get more and different kinds of help from God through them. However, fewer and fewer people seem to be raised to deal with hard-style authority figures any more. It has been becoming more and more the case that people never yield to spiritual authority (or any kind of authority). This leads to having less and less of God in our lives. Indeed we are self-destructing in this manner as a culture (leaders being immorimmoral leaders being one way it starts).

In practice we actually all only partially yield to another human's authority. To the degree you are genuinely submitted to someone you will receive blessings from God through them—and also be hurt by them. The blessings are eternal, but the pain is only for this life (which is not a statement meant to guide a person in their decisions in the matter).

Remember this: God wants you to become a person worthy of spiritual authority so you can help others. Learn lessons about it from interactions with authority figures, and of course from God.

My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, (James 1:19, 1984 NIV)
I have seen the damage that spiritual abuse has caused by those who try to wield it to protect their own pride and decisions. We did leave that church, but I think the subject has to be brought out, to keep these authoritarian-style leaders from wounding people. When I encountered it later on a forum, it actually made me sick to my stomach, because the two male moderators actually became verbally abusive, while demanding that I come under their authority because "the holy spirit gave them wisdom, and they were put in their position by God." It was appalling to see they felt it was their "right" to be abusive. When I attempted to step away, and told them to stop contacting me, they told me I "didn't have the authority to tell them to not contact me." My husband was appalled, and said who do they think they are?

I am older, but I've encountered overt spiritual abuse twice. I've seen other variations of it, but to a lesser extent. When I started research, I read it is common. What I learn abusers do is "spiritualize" their sin. What I can't understand, is how they can live a lie. I am beginning to see this as one of satan's most subtle attacks - that he works through leaders who don't "rightly handle the Word of Truth." I think this is making the church weak.
 
Upvote 0

angeltrue

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2016
1,153
532
67
NJ
✟27,118.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
****inkaboutit4u.com**** You may not be the average Pastor or Leader of a Church. Sound like you way above average.

I read this article online about an LA CA Pastor Jeff Bowman

Nudist Pastor Kicked out of his Church in LA For being a Nudist

Pastor Jeff Bowman was NOT promoting Nudist in the Church at all. Someone in the Church reported it to the Church association and they came to the church and fired him.

Story behind this was that his brother did a 40 page research study about: "Can a Christian be a Christian nudist per the Bible." His 40 page Bible research concluded that, Yes, per the Bible a Christian can be a Christian nudist.

He gave the 40 pages to his Pastor brother , Jeff Bowman, he read it and agreed with it and he and his wife became Christian nudist. But that was his personal opinion he was not promoting it in the Church. But with no discussion he was fired.

If anyone does this proper Bible research, they will discover the same thing. God is extremely pro-nudist. God wanted and want 100% of his creation to be nudist.

If Adam and Eve ate from the, "Tree of (eternal) life", That would be heaven on earth and 100% of God's creation would be all nudist , including 100% humans, forever. This is how much God is extreme pro-nudist.

But Christians leaders choose to copy sinful Adam and Eve after they sinned and got corrupt, evil, confused thinking and put clothes (fig leaves) on to cover up God's creation and rebell against God's creation plan.

Christians are a "NEW CREATION" in Christ, just like Adam and Eve were NEW CREATION in Christ, before they sinned and rebelled against God. First thing they did was put on "clothes" or fig leaves and hide behind bushes and trees from God.

Christ is like the second Adam, he came to reverse what Adam did. Christians should do the same, reverse what Adam did and become nudist with a pure thinking mind from Christ.

Nude Exercise In Ancient Greece
The word "gymnasium" comes from the Greek root "gymnos," which means "nude." The literal meaning of "gymnasium" is "school for naked exercise." Athletes in the ancient Olympic Games participated in the nude.The custom of exercising nude was first introduced in the city-state of Sparta, according to legend. It spread through all of Greece. Athletes from every part of Greece came together for the Olympic Games, competing naked in various foot races, as well as the long jump, javelin throwing, discus throwing; even boxing and wrestling.

Times of the early Church, the Roman empire had over 150 Nude gymnasiums all 100% nude and in each complex was both a Christian Church and a Hebrew (Church) Synagogal .

In Bible days nudity was common, fishermen, fished in the nude, farmers, farm in the nude. Families would go to the river and bath in the nude. All would swim in the nude.

Most important of all , God himself made the Hebrews male PENIS a "SIGN" that the Hebrews were God's special people.

A "SIGN" is NOT to be hidden, but shown off to all people. ---Again God is clearly showing himself to be extremely pro-nudist.

Jesus wash the disciple feet in the nude. (yes i know he had only a towel around him at first, but you try to wash and dry 12 disciple feet, the towel quickly falls off you.)

Jesus was on the cross nude.

God commanded Prophet Israel to be nude for 3 years. All God's creation was 100% nude per God's desire, God's plan and God's design.

On my web site i have over 205 reasons supporting nudity. And many nude research article on nudity. Children greatly enjoy nudity. Most Children want to walk around nude, but parents force them to wear clothes.

Titus 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

2Co 5:17 - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Col 3:14 - And the most important piece of clothing you must wear is love. Love is what binds us all together in perfect harmony.

Ro 13:9 - For the commandments against adultery and murder and stealing and coveting – and any other commandment – are all summed up in this onecommandment: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Ro 13:8 - Pay all your debts, except the debt of love for others. You can never finish paying that! If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill all the requirements of God's law.

Ro 13:10 - Love does no wrong to anyone, so love satisfies all of God's requirements.


GOD'S WORD Translation
Romans 7:4 (GW) In the same way, brothers and sisters, you have died to the laws in Moses' Teachings through Christ's body. You belong to someone else, the one who was brought back to life. As a result, we can do what God wants.

New Living Translation
Romans 7:4 (NLT) So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God.

The Complete Jewish Bible
Romans 7:4 (CJB) Thus, my brothers, you have been made dead with regard to the Torah through the Messiah's body, so that you may belong to someone else, namely, the one who has been raised from the dead, in order for us to bear fruit for God.



That is too hot of a topic for me. I personally believe one's body is only to be shared with their spouse.
 
Upvote 0

Greg J.

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 2, 2016
3,841
1,907
Southeast Michigan
✟233,164.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
****inkaboutit4u.com**** You may not be the average Pastor or Leader of a Church. Sound like you way above average.

I read this article online about an LA CA Pastor Jeff Bowman

Nudist Pastor Kicked out of his Church in LA For being a Nudist

Pastor Jeff Bowman was NOT promoting Nudist in the Church at all. Someone in the Church reported it to the Church association and they came to the church and fired him.

Story behind this was that his brother did a 40 page research study about: "Can a Christian be a Christian nudist per the Bible." His 40 page Bible research concluded that, Yes, per the Bible a Christian can be a Christian nudist.

He gave the 40 pages to his Pastor brother , Jeff Bowman, he read it and agreed with it and he and his wife became Christian nudist. But that was his personal opinion he was not promoting it in the Church. But with no discussion he was fired.

If anyone does this proper Bible research, they will discover the same thing. God is extremely pro-nudist. God wanted and want 100% of his creation to be nudist.

If Adam and Eve ate from the, "Tree of (eternal) life", That would be heaven on earth and 100% of God's creation would be all nudist , including 100% humans, forever. This is how much God is extreme pro-nudist.

But Christians leaders choose to copy sinful Adam and Eve after they sinned and got corrupt, evil, confused thinking and put clothes (fig leaves) on to cover up God's creation and rebell against God's creation plan.

Christians are a "NEW CREATION" in Christ, just like Adam and Eve were NEW CREATION in Christ, before they sinned and rebelled against God. First thing they did was put on "clothes" or fig leaves and hide behind bushes and trees from God.

Christ is like the second Adam, he came to reverse what Adam did. Christians should do the same, reverse what Adam did and become nudist with a pure thinking mind from Christ.

Nude Exercise In Ancient Greece
The word "gymnasium" comes from the Greek root "gymnos," which means "nude." The literal meaning of "gymnasium" is "school for naked exercise." Athletes in the ancient Olympic Games participated in the nude.The custom of exercising nude was first introduced in the city-state of Sparta, according to legend. It spread through all of Greece. Athletes from every part of Greece came together for the Olympic Games, competing naked in various foot races, as well as the long jump, javelin throwing, discus throwing; even boxing and wrestling.

Times of the early Church, the Roman empire had over 150 Nude gymnasiums all 100% nude and in each complex was both a Christian Church and a Hebrew (Church) Synagogal .

In Bible days nudity was common, fishermen, fished in the nude, farmers, farm in the nude. Families would go to the river and bath in the nude. All would swim in the nude.

Most important of all , God himself made the Hebrews male PENIS a "SIGN" that the Hebrews were God's special people.

A "SIGN" is NOT to be hidden, but shown off to all people. ---Again God is clearly showing himself to be extremely pro-nudist.

Jesus wash the disciple feet in the nude. (yes i know he had only a towel around him at first, but you try to wash and dry 12 disciple feet, the towel quickly falls off you.)

Jesus was on the cross nude.

God commanded Prophet Israel to be nude for 3 years. All God's creation was 100% nude per God's desire, God's plan and God's design.

On my web site i have over 205 reasons supporting nudity. And many nude research article on nudity. Children greatly enjoy nudity. Most Children want to walk around nude, but parents force them to wear clothes.

Titus 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

2Co 5:17 - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Col 3:14 - And the most important piece of clothing you must wear is love. Love is what binds us all together in perfect harmony.

Ro 13:9 - For the commandments against adultery and murder and stealing and coveting – and any other commandment – are all summed up in this onecommandment: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Ro 13:8 - Pay all your debts, except the debt of love for others. You can never finish paying that! If you love your neighbor, you will fulfill all the requirements of God's law.

Ro 13:10 - Love does no wrong to anyone, so love satisfies all of God's requirements.


GOD'S WORD Translation
Romans 7:4 (GW) In the same way, brothers and sisters, you have died to the laws in Moses' Teachings through Christ's body. You belong to someone else, the one who was brought back to life. As a result, we can do what God wants.

New Living Translation
Romans 7:4 (NLT) So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God.

The Complete Jewish Bible
Romans 7:4 (CJB) Thus, my brothers, you have been made dead with regard to the Torah through the Messiah's body, so that you may belong to someone else, namely, the one who has been raised from the dead, in order for us to bear fruit for God.



God's expectations for humans changed radically after Adam sinned. Adam had 1 command to follow. The Jews had 600+ commands to follow.

Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. (Romans 14:13-15, 1984 NIV)

How he was fired was handled atrociously, but the fact that they had no qualms about firing him means that he had ignored God's Word above.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

angeltrue

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2016
1,153
532
67
NJ
✟27,118.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God's expectations for humans changed radically after Adam sinned. Adam had 1 command to follow. The Jews had 600+ commands to follow.

Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. (Romans 14:13-15, 1984 NIV)

How he was fired was handled atrociously, but the fact that they had no qualms about firing him means that he had ignored God's Word above.
I'm not following you?
 
Upvote 0

Greg J.

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 2, 2016
3,841
1,907
Southeast Michigan
✟233,164.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Sorry, that post was off topic for this thread.
The following are several signs of spiritual abuse:
  • Stating personal religious convictions and preferences as fact for everyone
  • Religious convictions and preferences are stated as black and white
  • Requirements for church attendance
  • Dress and clothing requirements (appearance is a priority)
  • Closed minded about different interpretations of Scripture
  • Misinterpretations of scripture
  • Questioning the leaders is discouraged
  • Judging others
  • Excessive gossip
  • Hostility towards “heathens” and others who are not believers
  • Only people who go to a certain church are believers
  • Only reading a certain Bible version is allowed
  • Sexuality is seen as dirty, bad, and/or sinful
  • Strict discipline standards for children
  • Promoting spanking above all other forms of discipline
  • Guilt trips for taking vacation and missing church
  • Teaching Tithing
  • Emphasis on traditions
  • Music standards
  • Performance appraisals
  • Push towards perfection
  • Required devotional or quiet time
  • Levels or degrees of spirituality
  • Focusing on the penalty for sinning
  • Emphasis on God “chastening” you
  • Looking down on people who have left the church or denomination
  • Requiring a refusal of medical services
  • Required membership
  • Discarding psychology
  • Mental health issues are considered sinful or non-existent
  • Depression/Anxiety considered a sin
  • Your not spiritual enough if something bad happens to you
  • God is judging you for sin in your life
  • Being told “You need more faith” or “You don’t have enough faith”
  • Child discipline tactics that include warnings about God’s wrath
  • Rigid black and white thinking/answers to questions
  • Too much emphasis on the spiritual and not enough emphasis on the physical
  • Fears about the punishments of God
  • Negative messages about sexuality
  • Taught to deny the apatites of the body
  • Emphasis on reading the Bible and praying heavily to appease God and avoid punishment
  • Messages that you aren’t spiritual enough
  • Your “suffering” (whatever it may be) is a result of some sin in your life
  • Your physical illness is punishment for some sin in your life
It is my belief that spiritual abuse is a severe form of pride, and is a sin and that Christian leaders will do almost anything to keep their sin, and the truth about themselves hidden.
The list you made will never be right because it addresses things people do. Spiritual abuse occurs because of what is in someone's heart. On the other hand, suggesting it is a severe form of pride is heading in the right direction. Almost anything can be done as a result of assumed superiority (arrogance / sinful pride) or from humility. We struggle to do what is right and struggle against having a bad attitude, but it is only through a changed heart that spiritual abuse becomes either silence or appropriately expressed advice. Abusive words and behavior won't stop because a person tries to obey a list of actions to not do. That comes from acknowledging their sin to God and having faith in God (helped a lot if obedient to what He has commanded). Understanding this can help one to know how to deal with spiritual abuse better, identify it early on, and withstand it more strongly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Paidiske
Upvote 0

angeltrue

Well-Known Member
May 6, 2016
1,153
532
67
NJ
✟27,118.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, that post was off topic for this thread.


The list you made will never be right because it addresses things people do. Spiritual abuse occurs because of what is in someone's heart. On the other hand, suggesting it is a severe form of pride is heading in the right direction. Almost anything can be done as a result of assumed superiority (arrogance / sinful pride) or from humility. We struggle to do what is right and struggle against having a bad attitude, but it is only through a changed heart that spiritual abuse becomes either silence or appropriately expressed advice. Abusive words and behavior won't stop because a person tries to obey a list of actions to not do. That comes from acknowledging their sin to God and having faith in God (helped a lot if obedient to what He has commanded). Understanding this can help one to know how to deal with spiritual abuse better, identify it early on, and withstand it more strongly.
Hi Greg,

I didn't make the list - I cut and pasted it from a website. I had a hard time following your thoughts, but believe you're saying that trying to avoid committing the actions on that list are futile; that change must occur from within? That would work, if the leaders would own up to their actions. If an individual encounters several individuals in a leadership position who are committing spiritual abuse, how can they deal with the leaders who refuse to admit wrongdoing, and blame you for mistakes they are committing?

When I dealt with spiritual abuse both times, the leaders lorded their position over my friend, my husband, and me. When I attempted to try to reason with them, it was cut and dry - they pulled the "submission" scripture out to beat us with. Maybe their tactics work with some people, but if a believer is devoted to the truth, they won't buckle.

This is why I believe spiritual abuse may be one of satan's most clever tools. It's insidious, and destroys people and their faith. Leaders are used to people following them without questioning them, because of the "submission" verses in Scripture. But, "the law is good if it be used lawfully."

The social hierarchy in any Christian organization is the same as any barnyard pecking order. Most people want to stay in line. The pastors sinned, then drew more people into their sin, in their grasping fleshly desire to not have their "authority" challenged. At some level, those two couples from our bible study knew what they were doing was wrong. But, they used a tactic known on playgrounds across the country "might makes right."

Even after all these years it's hard to remember. Those pastors did everything within their power to hide their own sin - even to having others join them, to endorse them, that the fault lied with us and not them.

How can the church prevail against the evil one, when the evil one has the church's leaders pridefully doing his bidding?
 
Upvote 0

Greg J.

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 2, 2016
3,841
1,907
Southeast Michigan
✟233,164.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
<Long Post Ahead warning sign>
Hi Greg,

I didn't make the list - I cut and pasted it from a website. I had a hard time following your thoughts, but believe you're saying that trying to avoid committing the actions on that list are futile; that change must occur from within? That would work, if the leaders would own up to their actions. If an individual encounters several individuals in a leadership position who are committing spiritual abuse, how can they deal with the leaders who refuse to admit wrongdoing, and blame you for mistakes they are committing?

When I dealt with spiritual abuse both times, the leaders lorded their position over my friend, my husband, and me. When I attempted to try to reason with them, it was cut and dry - they pulled the "submission" scripture out to beat us with. Maybe their tactics work with some people, but if a believer is devoted to the truth, they won't buckle.

This is why I believe spiritual abuse may be one of satan's most clever tools. It's insidious, and destroys people and their faith. Leaders are used to people following them without questioning them, because of the "submission" verses in Scripture. But, "the law is good if it be used lawfully."

The social hierarchy in any Christian organization is the same as any barnyard pecking order. Most people want to stay in line. The pastors sinned, then drew more people into their sin, in their grasping fleshly desire to not have their "authority" challenged. At some level, those two couples from our bible study knew what they were doing was wrong. But, they used a tactic known on playgrounds across the country "might makes right."

Even after all these years it's hard to remember. Those pastors did everything within their power to hide their own sin - even to having others join them, to endorse them, that the fault lied with us and not them.

How can the church prevail against the evil one, when the evil one has the church's leaders pridefully doing his bidding?
Sorry I haven't been clear. At some point, I forgot you were writing an article, not trying to solve the problems at your church. Improving people's ability to identify spiritual abuse is a good goal for an article. (Who will be your audience? It might be more effective it is written for pastors and board members [and others] to raise awareness for controlling their own behavior.)
… Leaders are used to people following them without questioning them, because of the "submission" verses in Scripture. But, "the law is good if it be used lawfully."
Mis-use of the Scripture is horrible spiritual abuse. Not only does it harm the person, but it reinforces a way of thinking that will be passed on to others. The Law is good if used lawfully is certainly true. Paul also wrote that the Law is for lawbreakers. People with a good heart will do good no matter what is in the Law, but people with an evil heart need the Law to know they are doing wrong. By the way, we all have some good and some evil in our hearts. It’s not an issue of “us” vs. “them.”
… How can the church prevail against the evil one, when the evil one has the church's leaders pridefully doing his bidding?
I think everything you have written are good observations. My posts in this thread are to try to convey what spiritual eyes see, which makes it more obvious what is actually going on, and sometimes makes the psychology of what is going on easier to see.

God has chosen to allow evil to continue on earth so that more people will be saved (Matthew 13:24-30). I believe it is impossible for a human to really understand what the reasons are in specific instances, or even how great the good is that God does by working through or around sinful/evil actions and events. No matter how it may seem, God is always actively resisting evil—and wants us to do the same through moral means—and will help us. Our problem is we can’t see the details of what is involved. We want God to grant immediate salvation (from whatever) even when God is working out a saving strategy in the bigger picture.

If everyone in a church but an abusing pastor were fully devoted to Jesus Christ and obeying his will in all things, the Lord would have that pastor out of that role within a week. The problem is that few enough people have been so devoted in the past that we have extremely few spiritually strong people in any congregation, let alone enough so the Lord will move overtly. (How many churches do you know of that reliably have James 5:14-15 results?) We need the Lord to raise up and bring such people to us—which he will do in response to genuine needs. Unfortunately, my experience is that less than 1% of churches’ congregations have filled their life with obedience to Jesus (which is what we are commanded to do to be his disciples, and which leads to loving the Lord, which in turn empowers us to the obedience we had been struggling with before).

So, I wrote all that to say that it isn’t just the pastor’s fault that he is like he is, and neither is it entirely any individual’s fault for the condition he or she is in. In a church with long-time members, most of them have contributed to the environment that exists. I’m not referring to what they have or haven’t done at church (which matters), but by their less-than-ideal devotion to Jesus Christ.

However, this does not make any individual less responsible for their actions. The one who abuses is the one who is responsible for having chosen to do it, and we need to take reasonable (often Scriptural) actions in response.

Paul wrote the following to Timothy. Older men in his culture were due respect almost “no matter what.” It is similar to the respect we should show pastors.

Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, (1 Timothy 5:1, 1984 NIV)

A pastor may not be worthy of respect, but neither are we particularly good at being obedient. They two problems feed each other. People need to be willing to break the cycle. (You can see how the problem has affected politics: selfish politicians and rebellious constituents.)

We are all sinful people and affected by sins we didn’t commit, including pastors. This is one reason why God commands and expects humility in our hearts all through the Bible. As the saying goes, There but for the grace of God go I. Everything good we have received (and are) was/is a gift from God that we did nothing to earn (because it is impossible to do so).

The most powerful solution to people abusing the power they have is for us to obey what God said about it, because that brings the will and power of God to the situation. What God wants is for us to obey the person who has legitimate authority over us with forgiveness, love, and humility as long as it does not require us to disobey God (or our government’s laws which are also from God). This is exactly what Jesus was doing that got him executed.

If we are obedient to someone who has legitimate authority over us in some way, God views it as being obedient to Him. If people have been generally disobedient, God sometimes will put them, or allow them to come, under the authority of someone also disobedient. This is essentially the type of leadership people have requested from God by their actions. It is a reaction by people to bad things that is very contrary to “common sense,” but then, that shouldn’t really be surprising given the enormous contrast between what is “normal” to the world and what is good to God.

Behaving like God is always what is best in the long-term (and is also the most costly, Luke 9:22-26). Jesus suffered then died on the cross with forgiveness in his heart for those that were responsible for his crucifixion. Anything we can manage to do with that in our heart, no matter how small it seems, will have a powerfully good effect. The power God responds with to people who are doing this from their heart is enormous, and is what was in the heart of the people described in Hebrews 11:35-40. This truth is the reason Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 6:7, which is often indecipherable to people.

This can be called “the power of the cross.” It is the secret to life, available to us for all problems such as marriage problems, work problems, family problems, even health problems, and so on. God made the universe and the spiritual universe in his own image. Whenever someone suffers or sacrifices with the kind of heart of love Jesus had, he or she is uniting themselves with God and all of God’s power is present to work it out for great good. It is the one thing that is entirely foreign to Satan. He doesn’t and can’t comprehend it. Evil people also can’t ever (genuinely) do it or comprehend it. Satan’s power is zero in the face of it. Evil is destroyed in its presence.

However, do not interpret this to mean that what the person in authority is doing is good. We are also commanded to use moral means to work to correct any evil that is going on. When a situation seems like an apparent contradiction between humbly accepting what someone is doing and working to change what they are doing, it can be helpful to examine the long-term effects of dealing with it both ways (which we sort of do automatically, but not usually far enough into the future based on spiritual principles). Sometimes both can be done at the same time. Either way, definitely seek God for what his will is for you in such a situation, and pray/ask for what help you want God to do in the situation. And don’t feel bad if you can’t walk the path of the cross. Being aware of it and acting to please God in any way he requires (= trusting him) is what is most important. He will take care of everything else.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
My thoughts are evolving, but it was an independent church where that happened, so there was no oversight - no hierarchy that you could appeal to.
Yes, that's the drawback with a non-denominational church.
 
Upvote 0