Spirit-filled churches, but what spirit?

[reddogs]

I had someone ask me why he should go to a church that followed the scriptures when he was going to a 'spirit-filled church' and thus was fine. But after seeing what can happen with Ernie Knoll I have to say, test the spirit. I am hearing a lot about these 'spirit-filled' churches but they seem to be leaving out the Bible, and just following whatever they think the 'spirit' is telling them. Scripture is set aside and they are being led, but by what?

 

[k4c]

I had someone ask me why he should go to a church that followed the scriptures when he was going to a 'spirit-filled church' and thus was fine. But after seeing what can happen with Ernie Knoll I have to say, test the spirit. I am hearing a lot about these 'spirit-filled' churches but they seem to be leaving out the Bible, and just following whatever they think the 'spirit' is telling them. Scripture is set aside and they are being led, but by what?

2 Corinthians 11:4 You seem so gullible: you believe whatever anyone tells you even if he is preaching about another Jesus than the one we preach, or a different spirit than the Holy Spirit you received, or shows you a different way to be saved. You swallow it all.

 

[honorthesabbath]

RD--as a former member of one of those spirit filled churches, I can tell you first hand that those ppl disregard much of the bible--and are down right HOSTILE towards OBEDIENCE to the Word unless of course it has to with being 'in the spirit', which as you say, is very nefarious in nature. I've WITNESSED it!

 

[RND]

My home church (Victorville - Home) has recently gone to two services, one a more "traditional" Adventist at 9:00am and the second a more "contemporary" service starting at 11:00am.

Needless to say I'm not a big fan but at least I can partake in a whole service and sabbath school before heading off to prison in the afternoon.

 

[catmommy]

My home church (Victorville - Home) has recently gone to two services, one a more "traditional" Adventist at 9:00am and the second a more "contemporary" service starting at 11:00am.

Needless to say I'm not a big fan but at least I can partake in a whole service and sabbath school before heading off to prison in the afternoon.

You are fortunate to be going to a church that is open-minded enough to understand that we all have different spiritual needs. At least you have a choice about what service you attend. I am attending a church that is very traditional and that worship style is not for me. I would love to be involved in a church that understands traditional is not for everyone and needing something "contemporary" is not necessarily of the wrong spirit.

 

[honorthesabbath]

My home church (Victorville - Home) has recently gone to two services, one a more "traditional" Adventist at 9:00am and the second a more "contemporary" service starting at 11:00am.

Needless to say I'm not a big fan but at least I can partake in a whole service and sabbath school before heading off to prison in the afternoon.

Are the Sabbath schools divided as well?
I also have to wonder why people think worship is about 'them?

 

[RND]

Are the Sabbath schools divided as well?

I'm glad you asked HTS. The sabbath schools are not divided. However in the two weeks since this has started it seems very few (although there are some), that enjoy the contemporary service seem to make sabbath school.

I also have to wonder why people think worship is about 'them?

Well, this has always been a concern of mine. Sowing seeds on rocky ground so to speak. Spout up but eventually fall away because they aren't grounded in any solid doctrine.

The main issue with me is to prevent drums in the sanctuary. I wasn't looking for a drum kit in a church when I found this church and I most likely would have turned around and left had I seen one. The danger as I see it is that the church seeks too much to be like the rest of the world.

 

[JonMiller]

I can post here, right?

I personally think it is a great idea to have different services to cater to the different things different groups enjoy.

Far too often the SDA church is divided based on culture, like I have been to 'Hispanic churches', (conservative + liberal) 'White churches', and (conservative + liberal) 'African-American churches' all in the same area... all speaking the same language.

We should worship together far more often. Even if due to culture/etc there are differences.

But it is true that people like worshiping in a style that they are comfortable in. This goes for more 'conservative' style services and more 'liberal' style services.

It is generally the older population, which are also those that generally prefer more 'conservative' style which have an easier time waking up early. I know that I rarely make Sabbath school, but some of this was because I didn't have anywhere I felt I added a lot to. It does seem like the 11 am service should be the one that most people are comfortable with.

By the way, on musical instruments and choirs and what have you, my thoughts on it are the same. If it encourages the people in the pews to take part it is good, if they rather just want to sit back and listen, it is bad. The only time people should sit back and listen is for 'special music' which should be much less than praise and/or hymn music. The pastor of a korean church I attended said this, and it made sense (their main service was in korean, but their afternoon youth church was in english and conteporary... but the pastor didn't really want to do drums).

Personally I would think that an afternoon service (1 or 2 pm) would be even better at getting college age and soon after to arrive. I know that for me arriving at 11 am even has been difficult at times.

The church I attend generally doesn't use drums, but on a few occasions (generally 'youth church') it does. Being an African American church, it's music isn't the same as some of the other churches which include drums (there isn't any guitar).

JM
(Note 'conservative and liberal here are only in relationship to religious service style. Not to SDA theology necessarily and entirely unrelated to politics.)

 

[Stryder06]

I had someone ask me why he should go to a church that followed the scriptures when he was going to a 'spirit-filled church' and thus was fine. But after seeing what can happen with Ernie Knoll I have to say, test the spirit. I am hearing a lot about these 'spirit-filled' churches but they seem to be leaving out the Bible, and just following whatever they think the 'spirit' is telling them. Scripture is set aside and they are being led, but by what?

In short - Satan. I'll never be able to understand why it is that people believe the devil is incapable of infiltrating the church. Indeed he already has! You can be Spirit filled, and Spirit lead, if you're not Spirit taught by the Word of God. The Spirit will teach those things which Christ tells Him to speak. This is what the bible says.

How can you know you are being lead correctly if you don't have a standard to hold the teaching up to?

 

[Stryder06]

You are fortunate to be going to a church that is open-minded enough to understand that we all have different spiritual needs. At least you have a choice about what service you attend. I am attending a church that is very traditional and that worship style is not for me. I would love to be involved in a church that understands traditional is not for everyone and needing something "contemporary" is not necessarily of the wrong spirit.

Honestly, I think this is something that should be carefully discussed among our denomination. I myself prefer a little of both. I love traditional services, but at the same time I don't see anything wrong with a little contemporary music during praise and worship.

But we have to be careful that the music and the service is at all times uplifting God and is worthy of Him. Too often music becomes crossed with the secular and than it is brought into our churches. I don't think our minds should be thinking "AHHH this is my SONG!" when we're in church.

A good balance is what's needed. But I don't think we should have people questioning whether we're having church or a concert when they walk by.

 

[catmommy]

Are the Sabbath schools divided as well?
I also have to wonder why people think worship is about 'them?

Even traditional worship to some degree can be about the individual. They are uncomfortable about how others are worshiping and make a judgement that how others choose to praise God is not acceptable to THEM. The problem is that alot of times we use our own experiences and points of references and come to conclusions that may not be true. For example, a visiting muscian asked our church not to clap after special music because in their frame of thinking clapping was for praising the performer and not the creator. While that may be true for some, it is not true for me. I have an autoimmune disease that attacks my joints and my hands in the past have been highly affected. Now that I am in remission I am amazed and thankful everytime I clap. It truly is an act of worship and praise for me. Due to assumptions made by others who "know" what worship is they are actually hampering and dictating how others can and should worship God.

Drums cannot hender the spirit of worship. It is someones own personal preferences and prejudices that cause the problem. Drums are used in classical music and many of the christian and gospel albums we listen to. We are prejudging how they will be used, how indiviudals will react, and not even waiting to see whether they will be used to the glory of God. An instrument is an inadimate object-neither good nor evil. How it is used and the heart in which it is used is what we should be looking at.

 

[JonMiller]

Miriam danced before the Lord.

It is obvious that some of the members of the SDA church wouldn't feel comfortable worshiping with Moses et al.

And that is OK, as long as you don't say that it is of the devil.

You can worship in the way you want to. Unless instructed otherwise.

And we were never instructed to not use drums, or to not dance, or what have you.

JM

 

[RND]

Miriam danced before the Lord.

Just not in the sanctuary.

It is obvious that some of the members of the SDA church wouldn't feel comfortable worshiping with Moses et al.

And that is OK, as long as you don't say that it is of the devil.

You can worship in the way you want to. Unless instructed otherwise.

And we were never instructed to not use drums, or to not dance, or what have you.

You can look long and hard you'll never find drums used inside the sanctuary.

Satan will excite the indignation of apostate Christendom against the humble remnant who conscientiously refuse to accept false customs and traditions. . . . The church and the world will unite, and the world will lend to the church power to crush out the right of the people to worship according to His Word. - Christ Triumphant (1999), page 366, paragraph 2

 

[JonMiller]

The sanctuary in the OT is not the church building now.

How is drums false customs and traditions? And I believe that what Sister White is speaking about here are Catholic customs and traditions.

Please use things properly.

JM

 

[RND]

The sanctuary in the OT is not the church building now.

So we shouldn't treat the sanctuary with reverence and honor?

There is in the religious world a theory of sanctification which is false in itself and dangerous in its influence. In many cases those who profess sanctification do not possess the genuine article. Their sanctification consists in talk and will worship.

How is drums false customs and traditions?

Because these were used by pagan cultures in their worship.

And I believe that what Sister White is speaking about here are Catholic customs and traditions.

Please use things properly.

I think Sister White is referring to what I think she would be appalled by if she were with us today.

I saw that you both have a great conflict before you; you will have a constant warfare to keep this world out of your hearts, for you love it. The great study with you now must be how to love Jesus and His service better than the world. If you love the world most, your works will testify to the fact. If you love Jesus and His service most, your works will testify to that fact also. I saw that the gaze of many in this world is upon you. Many would exult in your downfall, others rejoice in your advancement. Satan and evil angels will present to you the glory of the kingdoms of this world. If you will worship him, or worship a worldly treasure, he will hold it up in every light to attract and lead you to love and worship.

 

[JonMiller]

Because these were used by pagan cultures in their worship.

So is songs, and other instruments.

In fact, tambourines (a percussion instrument) was used by the children of Israel.

You are being ridiculous, and letting your old cultural biases say what is good and evil.

JM

 

[RND]

So is songs, and other instruments.

I think that singing and instruments were done in the sanctuary.

In fact, tambourines (a percussion instrument) was used by the children of Israel.

Just not in the sanctuary.

You are being ridiculous,

John, you've been treated well here, with respect and without any condemnation regarding your opinion and no judgments have been made. Please, refrain from calling people expressing their opinion as being "ridiculous." It is this type of language that I'm certain most of the Adventist that post in the traditional section would take issue with. Feel free to express yourself without calling other peoples views and opinions ridiculous.

I spent 25+ years as a hard drinking, drug using, rock n' roll fiend that slept around with strange women quite a bit. I have some very good reasons why I don't believe a drum kit is appropriate in any church service.

and letting your old cultural biases say what is good and evil.

When one understands the very nature of music, how it infiltrates and influences the mind and how the human mind is not free on it's own to shut out musical rhythms and beats then one can begin to look at music honestly and objectively. Undesirable music is just like inhaling the unwanted second hand smoke from a smoker.

[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,Arial]Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D. along with others at Biblical Perspectives[/FONT] have written a number of articles that are extremely helpful in understanding the influence of music on the human mind.

ENDTIME ISSUES No 38: From Rock Music To The Rock Of Ages
ENDTIME ISSUES No 36
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ENDTIME ISSUES No 40
ENDTIME ISSUES No 41

 

[honorthesabbath]

Is this where you want Adventist churches to end up? I fear that many are already at this level.

Ex 32:17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp. 18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.

Isa 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

Eze 22:26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.


YouTube - Two Steppin 4 Jesus

 

[catmommy]

There are no examples in the bible what type of "services" were held in the sanctuary. Sure there were no drums in the church, but I doubt we would have found a piano or organ either. Sister White's concerns for how church services were in response to what was going on in the early church. Her opinion about how church services should be conducted just do not translate today. The idea that drums are "primative" is more of a cultural understanding of that day than anything else. Drums are not always pounding beats and dance music. Look at classical music. What she wrote was an opinion piece that the modern church holds on to using it to justify their personal preference.

 

[catmommy]

So we shouldn't treat the sanctuary with reverence and honor?

There is in the religious world a theory of sanctification which is false in itself and dangerous in its influence. In many cases those who profess sanctification do not possess the genuine article. Their sanctification consists in talk and will worship.



Because these were used by pagan cultures in their worship.



I think Sister White is referring to what I think she would be appalled by if she were with us today.

I saw that you both have a great conflict before you; you will have a constant warfare to keep this world out of your hearts, for you love it. The great study with you now must be how to love Jesus and His service better than the world. If you love the world most, your works will testify to the fact. If you love Jesus and His service most, your works will testify to that fact also. I saw that the gaze of many in this world is upon you. Many would exult in your downfall, others rejoice in your advancement. Satan and evil angels will present to you the glory of the kingdoms of this world. If you will worship him, or worship a worldly treasure, he will hold it up in every light to attract and lead you to love and worship.

That has nothing to do with how someone worships. Loving the world and praising God are two different things. This is an example of how the traditions of "men" tend to superceed the word of the God. There are no instructions in the Bible forbidding the use of drums or dancing or telling us that quiet thoughtfulness is the only way to be reverent. However we are now convienced that this is the only way to worship God. I am not talking about disorganized chaos in the sanctuary. I am talking about telling individuals who are led by the Spirit to praise God being told by man that their praise is unexceptable. When that happens who is actually being exhaulted?