LDS speaking with the dead

BigDaddy4

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"Joseph Smith plagiarized from such-and-such work!" conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen.
That's pretty lazy and didn't answer my question. He cited sources, and you can't refute them so you deny or dismiss them. Is this how you claim victory over those poor ignorant Christians you brag about but fail to demonstrate here?
 
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Ironhold

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That's pretty lazy and didn't answer my question. He cited sources, and you can't refute them so you deny or dismiss them. Is this how you claim victory over those poor ignorant Christians you brag about but fail to demonstrate here?

And the sources were where now?
 
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Peter1000

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Mat_22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
He does however, have control of all realms of existence. God created all things:

Isa_45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Notice closely in the above verse that it states: I the LORD. The Hebrew meaning of the word LORD is Adonim, The Ruler of the creation. Each title used in the Bible scriptures has it own meaning and usage which must be adhered to if on is to correctly understand who is doing what, where. Elohim is God the creator of all things. Jehovah Elohim is God as the Ruler in Genesis 2.

This then puts all things in control of Him and His various positions in this creation on Earth. There is Earth and there is earth. These seem to get used in the same manner most of the time and is an big error.

Andy Centek
Matthew 22:32 says that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Here is what Romans says:
Romans 14:9King James Version (KJV)
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

How do you reconcile these 2 scriptures???
 
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Peter1000

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Also how do you account for LDS afterlife ideas already printed in a book that JS had access to? proof is in the links I gave and likely in the quotes too.
On many occasions JS learned what other men said and then went to the Lord to see what He said. In several instances what other men said was similar to what the Lord told JS. That is not an astounding discovery.

For instance: the whole idea that the true church of Jesus Christ was not on the earth at the time of JS was rampant. JS did not make that up, it was all over the place. It just happens when JS went to the Lord to pray about which church to join, the Lord confirmed that His true church was not on the earth and that JS would be an instrument in His hands to restore the true church to the earth.

The 3 degrees of glory may have been a key element in a book at the time of JS, but that does not mean JS made it his doctrine and plagiarized the book as part of his new doctrine.
The truth is that JS may very well have read this book and with these thoughts in his head, he went to the Lord to find out the real truth. Some of the book happened to be the truth (as you can find the 3 degrees of glory in the bible too).
JS then went ahead and wrote from revelation the 76th section of the D&C.
Its pretty simple.

Another for instance: JS became a master Mason, and in the process of being a Mason, he learned things about their organization that was very interesting to him. With that interest, he went to the Lord to find out if any of this information was from Him. The Lord told him that some of that infromation was from the His temple ceremony anciently, and then proceeded to give JS the full and broad doctrine of temple marriage, which is a hallmark of the Mormon church.

So the idea that JS plagiarized anything is silly. Most of what he was revealed from the Lord is already in the OT and NT anyway.

But you do bring up an interesting situation. But the answer to your interesting situation, is more interesting. It is that JS receives the full truth by revelation from the Lord.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Having a Pentecostal/Charismatic background, I have seen the good, bad and ugly side, and some of the "spooky spiritual" stuff that happens in the lunatic fringe. I guess your church would be no different. From what I know of the Mormons I have met, and they have all been good people with a sincere faith, I have not heard of any "spooky spiritual" encounters like visible spirits of the dead appearing at baptisms for the dead. The Roman Catholics have something similar in that they will have a Mass for the dead. Paul speaks of those who baptise for the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:29 in relation to his discourse on the Resurrection. He says that it happens and does not seem to disapprove of it. It seems that people do it to give them a level of comfort in the same way that Roman Catholics believe that their loved ones go to Purgatory so they can be purged of their sins and perhaps make it to heaven after all. We don't really know what happens when people die and go out into eternity, except that Paul said of himself, "Absent from the body, present with the Lord." All the other stories, like Dante's Inferno and similar works are fiction. Jesus gave a clue about heaven where He said that there are many mansions, and that people don't get married there. There is another story, and I am not sure whether it is a true one or one of Jesus' parables where the rich man went to hell and Lazarus went into the bosom of Abraham. The Book of Revelation gives pictures of what eternity will be like, but it is full of symbolism, the keys of which have largely been lost over time, so people can make only educated guesses about it. But what we do know is that Christian believers will be worshiping before the throne of God and Jesus will be the final victor.

I would not be surprised if there were a lot of Mormon believers there as well, because all that is needed to be saved according to Peter in Acts 2 is that one believes that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead. I am assured that most Mormons believe that and although there are doctrines which may not be agreed to by what I would call the mainstream, they are doing the will of God in that Jesus said that the will of God is to believe on Him whom God has sent.

I have heard of a movement within the LDS church called "Mormons for Christ" made up of believers who have accepted Christ as Saviour but have decided to stay in the Mormon Church so that they can help their fellow believers have their experience with God enhanced through a stronger faith in Christ.

All Mormons accept Christ as their Saviour.
 
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withwonderingawe

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You did not read down far enough in the OP, also looking at the faces of dead people is communication.

Here is what you overlooked.

"Source: Benson, Ezra Taft, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988. 602 – 604.

Perhaps I may be permitted to relate a circumstance with which I am acquainted in relation to Bishop Roskelley, of Smithfield, Cache Valley. On one occasion he was taken very sick – near to death’s door. While he lay in this condition, President Peter Maughan, who was dead, came to him and said: “Brother Roskelley, we held a council on the other side of the veil. I have had a great deal to do, and I have the privilege of coming here to appoint one man to come and help. I have had three names given to me in council, and you are one of them. I want to inquire into your circumstances.” The Bishop told him what he had to do, and they conversed together as one man would converse with another. President Maughan then said to him: “I think I will not call you. I think you are wanted here more than perhaps one of the others.” Bishop Roskelley got well from that hour."

In Rev 21 an angel speaks to John and tells him many things. John tries to worship him but he says don't do it for I am your brother and one of the prophets. So we have here a dead prophet sent to John speaking to him.

However John did not go about conjuring him up, he was sent by God with a message.

My father in-law past away yesterday. A few nights before he said a man came to him and said he had died or would die. He was very confused so it's hard to tell if it was just a dream or if it really happened but it's not conjuring or looking for a sign.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Heaven and its Wonders and Hell by Emanuel Swedenborg
Heaven and its wonders and hell, from things heard and seen : Swedenborg, Emanuel, 1688-1772 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

"
How LDS Teachings Compare with Swedenborg=s


The similarities between LDS doctrine and Swedenborg=s teachings are striking - and impossible for me to imagine as mere coincidences. Likewise, the differences are also just as outstanding and cause me to wonder how the similarities can coexist with such marked differences.

I list here some similarities which include a few ideas which are embraced by both Swedenborg and the LDS religion but which are far from a comprehensive list. Volumes could be written about each topic and how they compare. I will leave to the theologians of both the LDS Church and New Churches[6] the in-depth examination of these concepts. The majority of my citations are from Heaven and Hell, Swedenborg=s most popular work.[7]

Swedenborg numbered paragraphs in his writing so that no matter in what format they might be published, readers could follow the same numbering scheme. In his own works his references are always listed in this fashion. I have also adopted this system for the references to Swedenborg=s works. Other works are referred to by page number. Scriptures, LDS or otherwise, use standard scriptural notation.

Vocabulary differences between Swedenborgian writings and LDS scriptures should also be noted. In Swedenborg=s writings Mormons should generally substitute the word Aperdition@ for Ahell@ to understand the proper context. The Aspirit world,@ for Swedenborgians, includes perdition, heaven, and a realm of more-or-less recently departed spirits while the term Aworld of spirits@ in Swedenborg=s Writings refers to an intermediate realm between heaven and hell for the relatively recently deceased. Since Aworld of spirits@ can be understood by both an LDS or Swedenborgian reader, this term is used throughout the text.


Unique Similarities


In the entire congregation of all historical Christian theologians the following similarities, according to the understanding of the author, are only found in the LDS religious tradition and the teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg. One such similarity would be an interesting coincidence, two completely unexpected, three a practical impossibility, and four a strong indication that there is something much more to the similarities than mere chance. An analogy might be that a unique gene in two otherwise very dissimilar individuals may still be an indication that common ancestry is a either a high probability or an absolute certainty.

1. There are three heavens (D&C 76, Heaven and Hell chapter 5). Swedenborg divided the heavens into three: celestial, spiritual, and natural, with divisions so absolute that direct communication is generally not possible without divine help. Those of lower heavens in general cannot see the inhabitants of the higher heavens. Communication does occur between higher and lower realms, but those of the lower heavens are, in general, not so aware of its occurrence. The communication originates from what Swedenborg calls Acorrespondences,@ which are in the nature of the relationship of a symbol or allegory and which are a central feature of all creation, providing the means by which higher or more inner degrees of reality, beginning with God Himself, are related, typically in cause and effect fashion, to lower, more external degrees. The LDS parallel of Swedenborg=s heavens are the celestial, terrestrial, and telestial heavens. Swedenborg=s terms for the heavens are all biblical, and can be found in the scriptures that Mormons believe refer to these heavens, 1 Cor 15:40-42.[8] The counterpart of Swedenborg=s spiritual heaven is the LDS terrestrial heaven, which despite its name, is not depicted as being earthlike in LDS scripture. To describe the lowest of the heavens Joseph Smith invented a new term, telestial. Swedenborg stated that the heavens were arranged in layers around the central Sun of heaven, or the Lord God Jesus Christ. The natural heaven is the furthest from the center.

2. Priesthood robes are worn in heavenly marriage ceremonies. Swedenborg witnessed a marriage ceremony in heaven in which the husband wore robes like those of Aaron while the wife was arrayed as a queen. (D&C 131:2, Conjugial Love 20, 21). LDS doctrine mostly speaks of two orders of the priesthood, the Melchizedek and Aaronic, but also speaks of the patriarchal order as another order of the priesthood (D&C 132). Swedenborg=s description of the attire of the heavenly couple in the marriage ceremony of Cojugial Love 21 will strike a chord with all Mormons who have witnessed a temple marriage.[9]

3. There are three heavens in the celestial glory or kingdom (D&C 131:1, Arcana Coelestia 9993). Swedenborg states that there are three heavens, the celestial, spiritual and natural, and two kingdoms of heaven, the celestial and the spiritual. The organizational relationship between the three heavens and two kingdoms is complex and has long been a source of discussion among students of Swedenborg. In Arcana Coelestia 9993 [2], Swedenborg states that the celestial kingdom has three divisions, and also stated in Arcana Coelestia 5922 [2] that the celestial kingdom is the celestial heaven. Through the Lord=s direction and by means of angels that communicate between them they act in unison. Mormons understand D&C 131:1 to mean that the celestial heaven, Aglory@ in D&C 131:1, is divided into three heavens. Swedenborg also used the word Aglory@ to refer to kingdoms, Arcana Coelestia 5922 [2]. While, again, the exact interpretation of the three heavens-two kingdoms distinction remains a matter of discussion in the New Church, the parallels with LDS doctrine are still obvious.

4. You must be married in heaven to inherit the highest heaven (D&C 131:2, Conjugial Love 54(5), 155). Monogamy is central, according to Swedenborg, to all of heaven, although there are a few exceptions, such as sincere celibates and some Islamics in polygamous relationships, who live at the fringes or Aside@ of the lower heavens. Marriage mimics (or, in Swedenborg=s term and concept, Acorresponds to@) the relationship between God and His Church since their ultimate destiny is approach unity. Again, Swedenborg states that an absolute requirement to inherit the highest heaven is heterosexual marriage. Marriage, according to Swedenborg, means the separate minds of man and wife become so closely spiritually linked that they become one mind (and married couples in heaven, seen from a distance, may appear on occasion as one individual). The Doctrine and Covenants simply states that the highest heaven in the celestial glory cannot be attained without eternal marriage (D&C 132:2). Without eternal marriage men and women cannot be fulfill the purpose of their creation or reach the highest degree of spiritual attainment which is possible for them, or in Swedenborg=s words, cannot approach the Lord (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol.3, p.333, Conjugial Love 155). Swedenborg saw married partners in heaven as being two halves of good and truth or love and wisdom. The unity of these two is fundamental to creation, the husband bringing wisdom externally and love internally and the wife bringing love externally and wisdom internally to the union. LDS ideas aren=t so specific but similar concepts are hinted at in the temple.

5. The world of spirits is a place of preparation for either heaven or perdition (Alma 12:24, 34:32-34, 40:21, Heaven and Hell 421, 422). Both LDS doctrine and Swedenborg state that the world of spirits is the portal through which all mankind passes on to prepare for either heaven or perdition. This idea is distinct from the Catholic idea of purgatory in which only the righteous go who are destined for heaven. Purgatory is also seen as a place of punishment. Most of Christianity rejects the idea of purgatory, or a spiritual abode separate from heaven or hell, as being non-scriptural. Swedenborg taught that for newly arrived spirits, the world of spirits is nearly identical to this one. LDS doctrine refers to the world of spirits as a continuation of this life where men make decisions about their eternal outcome and eventually inherit one of the three heavens or perdition (Alma 12:24, Alma 34:32-34 where Athis life@ is taken to extend into the world of spirit). This is echoed in Swedenborg=s teachings as well, but for Swedenborg the ultimate fate of the soul is determined by the individual=s Aruling love,@ or basic spiritual orientation toward good or evil, at the time of passing from mortality (Heaven and Hell 427). LDS doctrine states that men are not only judged by their actions, but the desires of their heart (Alma 41:3, Helaman 14:29-31, Mosiah 2:34-39; Doctrine and Covenants 137:9) . The LDS concept of the world of spirits allows a wide range of choice for those who have never encountered true principles during their lifetime. Mormons believe that a person may remain in the world of spirits for hundreds or thousands of years while Swedenborg generally limits this time of preparation to a mere thirty years (1 Peter 3:18-20, Heaven and Hell 426. It might be noted that Swedenborg teaches that there was an exception to the thirty year rule in past history, at a time when there existed Afalse heavens,@realms created in the spirit world which trap those who would otherwise progress to heaven or perdition, but that these were eliminated at the time of the Last Judgment, which Swedenborg states occurred in the year 1757 (Last Judgement 64). LDS teachers indicate that repentance is much easier in the physical realms than in the world of spirits while Swedenborg indicates that it is impossible anywhere but the physical existance (Journal of Discourses 3:230 and 3:371, Heaven and Hell 480).

6. There are angels who communicate between heavens (Doctrine and Covenants 76:86-88, Heaven and Hell 27, 35). Swedenborg states that higher heavens communicate with lower ones through intermediary angels and through correspondence (Heaven and Hell 35, 88). Swedenborg=s description of angelic communication between heavens is fascinating, Aas is often done, angels are raised up by the Lord out of a lower heaven into a higher that they may behold its glory; for then they are prepared beforehand, and are encompassed by intermediate angels, through whom they have communication...@ (Heaven and Hell 35). Communication is facilitated by raising the awareness of lower angels to that of the higher heaven so that the message can be perceived or understood. The Doctrine and Covenants states that Asome@ of the celestial heaven minister to those in the terrestrial (spiritual?) heaven, and Asome@ of the terrestrial (spiritual?) heaven minister to those of the telestial (natural?) heaven. Swedenborg describes societies of angels whose principal function is communication between the kingdoms of heaven (Heaven and Hell 27). Doctrine and Covenants 76:88 states that the angels who communicate to lower heavens are Aappointed@ for this task, paralleling the Swedenborgian idea that angelic societies tend to have a specialization.

7. Likens the celestial, spiritual (terrestrial?), and natural (telestial?) heaven to the sun, moon, and stars (D&C 76:50,71,81, 88:7-9, Heaven and Hell 117-120, 129, Apocalypse Revealed 65). I place this at the end of the list because there is a significant difference embeded in the similarity, namely that Swedenborg speaks of the heavens and their illumination while LDS scriptures speak of the bodies of the inhabitants of those heavens. Nevertheless, the aspects of the teachings that are similar are unique in Christianity and not clear in the King James version of 1 Cor 15:40-42. Allegorically, Swedenborg likens both the nature of each heaven as well as the illumination in the sky of each heaven to the sun, moon, and stars (Heaven and Hell 119). He states that the sun of the celestial heaven and the moon of the spiritual kingdom is the Lord (Heaven and Hell 118). Swedenborg states that the communities of the natural heaven appear as stars in the sky to inhabitants of the world of spirits (Apocalypse Revealed 65). In the Joseph Smith translation of I Cor 14:40-42 and in Doctrine and Covenants 76:70,71,81; the resurrected bodies of those in the celestial, terrestrial, and telestial heavens are likened to the sun, moon, and stars. In Doctrine and Covenants 88:7,8, the Lord is said to be the light of the sun and is in the sun and also the light of the moon and is in the moon. Verse 9 states that He is also the source of the light of the stars but does not state the He is in the stars. It could well be that these verses speak of the spiritual realms more than the physical.

Other Similarities

These following similarities are interesting, but common to more than just LDS Church and New Church teachings. There are significant differences embedded in some of the similarities. These are explained as far as understood by the author.

8. The church Christ established has passed from the earth (Joseph Smith History 16, etc., Last Judgement 33-39). Swedenborg stated that the first Christian church died spiritually, due to falling into falsities, ending its ability to serve as a spiritual link between heaven and earth.[10] While Swedenborg lamented the loss of spirituality and truth, Smith emphasized the loss of authority.[11] LDS doctrine teaches that the church established by Christ had ceased to exist on earth among mortal men due to apostasy, thus ending of transferring priesthood authority given by Christ to His apostles. Mormons believe the Lord=s Church has a link to heaven through this priesthood, which priesthood has the authority to act for God on earth and perform ordinances necessary for salvation, such as baptism. While this similarity will pique the interest of LDS readers, it should be noted that many protestant reformers also claimed that Christ=s church had ceased to exist among men.

9. The Lord will establish a New Church on the earth once more (D&C 1, the First Vision, True Christian Religion 647). The Lord=s Church would be reestablished, the truth would be taught again and serve as a link to heaven. To Mormons this link is revelation which is granted to the Lord=s servants, more specifically those that are ordained to the priesthood and who are called to guide the Church. New Church people believe that only Swedenborg received such revelation, not church members. The idea of a latter-day restoration of Christ=s church is not totally unique to LDS or Swedenborgian thought, however, since a number of Christian reformers stated that the church had fallen away and needed to be reestablished.[12] What is unique about Swedenborg is that although he recognized the need for reestablishing Christ=s church on the earth, he did little to bring about its organization beyond publishing the Writings.

10. Little children who die, Christian or not, go directly to heaven (Moroni 8:7-10, Heaven and Hell 332). Swedenborg states that they still require instruction. Both Swedenborg and LDS doctrine states that small children are not capable of understanding the results of their actions are not therefore culpable. LDS doctrine holds that all little children who die are bound for the celestial heaven (Doctrine and Covenants 137:10). Swedenborg states that little children are immediately taken into heaven after death (Heaven and Hell 332).

11. Since God creates man in free will, God does not send man to heaven or perdition. Man makes this choice himself. (2 Ne. 2:26-30; 10:23; Alma 13:3; Hela. 14:31, Heaven and Hell 452, Conjugial Love 48b) Swedenborg taught that hell-bound individuals cannot bear to be in heaven=s proximity. Orson Pratt indicated that the wicked would rather be in hell than the presence of God (Journal of Discourses 16: 331).

12. Without Aopposition in all things@, or what Swedenborg terms the equilibrium between good and evil, the universe would not exist and men would appear dead (2 Ne. 2:11-13, Mosiah 2:21, Heaven and Hell 589, 592, 594, Arcana Coelestia 2887). Opposition means, in the words of the Book of Mormon, the opportunity for mankind to choose either eternal life and liberty or captivity and death. In other words, all men at all times are attracted by good and evil during mortality and have the opportunity to choose one or the other. This opposition, or balance, allows men to be free to choose (2 Nephi 2:16, Heaven and Hell 589). Swedenborg also states that Awithout equilibrium... nothing can come forth and have permanent existence,@ (Heaven and Hell 589) and Aall things and each thing in the universe, that is, both in the natural world and in the spiritual world, endure by means of equilibrium@ (Heaven and Hell 592). The Book of Mormon similarly states that without opposition nothing could exist Aneither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away@ (2 Nephi 2:13). Both balance (Swedenborg) and opposition (LDS) seem to indicate the opposed play of forces discovered by science in the physical world which allows it to exist. Swedenborg states that men are constantly in touch with (though not conscious of) both angels and evil spirits and if this were to cease that men would appear dead (Arcana Coelestia 2887). The Book of Mormon similarly states that without opposition creation would Aremain as dead, having no life neither death@ (2 Nephi 2:11).

13. Man is not saved by faith alone but must show works from a changed heart (Alma 11:34-37, True Christian Religion 340-342, Heaven and Hell 427). Swedenborg taught that justification by faith alone is one of the great errors of Christianity. The Book of Mormon teaches that we are saved by grace AFTER all we can do (2 Nephi 25:23).

14. Swedenborg echoes concepts found in the LDS sacrament prayer. If these principles are followed, men are guided on earth and the spirit world (Moroni chapters 4&5, Heaven and Hell 528-535). We must live the commandments (Moroni 4:3, Heaven and Hell 528-535). We must take upon us the name of the Son, which to Mormons means to lead a life of charity and service (Mosiah 18:8-11). Swedenborg also speaks of taking upon us the name of Christ in similar ways which emphasize charity and service.[13] (Moroni 4:3, , Heaven and Hell 528-535). We must think on heavenly things, or, more specifically, for Mormons, Christ or, for followers of Swedenborg, the Lord=s Divine Human (Swedenborg=s words) (Moroni 4:3, 5:2, Heaven and Hell 534).

15. One way to qualify for perdition is to know the truth and deny it, or in Swedenborg=s terms accept the truth and then later deny it (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pg 358, Heaven and Hell 456). According to Joseph Smith, knowing the truth and then denying it is not mere disagreement. He stated that the candidate for perdition Ahas got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy.@ Swedenborg explains that heavenly visions are withheld from man because Athere is danger in confirming any thing by visions when men are in falsities, for they would then first believe and afterwards deny, and thus would profane the truth itself, since to believe and afterwards deny is to profane; and those who profane truths are cast down into the lowest and most grievous of all the hells@ (Heaven and Hell 456).

16. Celestial beings incorporate the law of consecration into their lives. In Mormon vernacular this means that our goods, time, talents, and all else that we appear to possess in fact belongs to God. (LDS traditional teachings, D&C 42, Moses 7:18, Heaven and Hell 8, 408). Swedenborg states that heavenly beings believe that all the good they have is from the Lord, not themselves, and that their role is to be tools for use by the Lord.

17. The creation and the garden of Eden stories are allegories to our spiritual progress (Arcana Coelestia vol. 1). The LDS counterpart of this idea is found in the temple and cannot be described in detail here.

18. All things in the physical world exist due to existence of a spiritual quality cause that then brings about a physical world effect, by means of what Swedenborg terms Acorrespondence@ of the spiritual to the physical entity (e.g. water has a correspondential origin in truth, with which it thus shares symbolic qualities) (Moses 3:5&7, Heaven and Hell chapter 12) Mormons typically believe that there exists an image of our world in the spiritual realms. Swedenborg teaches that this is mostly true for the recently departed (Heaven and Hell 493), but that at a deeper spiritual level, things in the physical realm are mere symbols for the profound truths found in heaven.[14] Mormons also believe that the world was created completely in spiritual form before the physical creation. For Swedenborg, this is true through Acorrespondence@ (Heaven and Hell 89), since the physical realm corresponds to the antecedent spiritual realm.

19. God is man. (Moses 6:57, 7:35, Matthew 16:13, Arcana Coelestia 9359, 9361, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 345) Swedenborg states that "God is very Man" (Divine Love and Wisdom 11, New Jerusalem and its Heavenly Doctrine 1). According to Swedenborg the difference between God and man is that while God has assumed humanity, he remains infinite in power, love, intelligence, and glory, while man merely approaches that ultimate by degrees and is finite. Before his birth, Swedenborg maintains that God was invisible to man and was represented on earth by His angels, who assumed His form when speaking with men. After His birth the resurrected Christ appears as Himself to men (True Christian Religion 786, 787). To Swedenborg, the whole of heaven, each angel, and all men are created in the image and likeness of the Divine humanity of God (Heaven and Hell 78-86). In this Greatest Human Being we find the structures and functions of both sexes (Apocalypse Explained 985:2). Joseph Smith taught that God is a man and is now exalted but was once Himself a mortal on earth. While the humanity of God is a common element there are some major differences between Swedenborg=s and Joseph Smith=s concepts of God=s humanity, especially since the LDS concept appears to encompass the idea that God is finite. The LDS view of God=s humanity is echoed in the King Follett Discourse of Joseph Smith:


AGod himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,CI say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in formClike yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man....@ Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg 345.


Some Differences

1. God the Father, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are a single individual in Swedenborg=s teachings. (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22, True Christian Religion 6 [3]). Current LDS Doctrine on the nature of God is clear that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separate deities within the Godhead.


ALatter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (Article of Faith 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (Articles of Faith, chap. 2)@ Encyclopedia of Mormonism, AGodhead.@


According to Swedenborg=s teachings, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of God in the same manner that man had a body, a spirit, and individual thought. One Swedenborgian minister summarized Swedenborg=s explanation of the triune nature of God as follows:


Father = Divine Itself = invisible God = Soul

Son = Divine Human = visible God = Body

Holy Spirit = Divine Proceeding = Operation/Activity[15]


The Lectures on Faith, written in the first half of the 1830's and later included in the standard works, teaches that the Father was a personage of spirit, the Son a personage of tabernacle, and that the Holy Ghost was their common mind.[16] If it could be understood that two personages with a common mind are one individual, then we have almost an exact corollary to Swedenborg=s teachings. Dan Vogel presents evidence that the earliest conceptions of God in the LDS Church portray the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one individual, but that later teachings clearly contradicted this point of view.[17] This eventually disappeared from LDS teachings until finally the idea that the Father possessed a body of flesh appeared in LDS scripture fully endowing the Father with a separate physical and spiritual identity.

To illustrate the importance of the unity of God Swedenborg claims that the angels in heaven can not even pronounce the word Agods@ (True Christian Religion 6 [3]). Nevertheless, Swedenborg seems to affirm the LDS view that the Father and the Son may appear as separate beings while rejecting how Mormons would interpret outward separateness. Swedenborg states that often in heaven the Lord appears as an angel apart from the sun of heaven where the Lord dwells (Heaven and Hell 121). He also teaches that during Christ=s earthly ministry He altered between states of temptation, when God the Father appeared as remote from Himself, and states when it was clear to Him that AI and my father are one.@ but that this alternation ended with the conclusion of His temptations at the crucifixion (True Christian Religion 104-105).

2. Polygamy, if continued past the spirit world, assures that you will not enter the highest heaven (D&C 132, Heaven and Hell 379, Conjugial Love 141, 332, 348) or, with a handful of exceptions, that you will enter heaven at all since the monogamous married relationship is Ain the image of God@ and fundamental to heavenly existence. (Swedenborg does mention an exception in the form of a separate heaven of sincere Islamics, but it is clear that the quality of this heaven is below that of the rest of heaven as a result.) LDS scripture indicates that women sealed to a man with proper authority will be married to him for the eternities and they will become gods. Swedenborg agrees that marriages are, again, fundamental to heaven, but that all, again except for some Islamics, are monogamous. As already noted, this is because marriage there melds two minds into one and the forces that allow this to happen do not operate outside a monogamous relationship. Swedenborg states, APolygamy is not a sin for those whose religion allows it,@ but seems to exclude Christians from this exception (Conjugial Love 332). Swedenborg classifies polygamy among Christians as adultery, so that a husband of a polygamous marriage must renounce that state and choose a single wife in order to come in to heaven and establish the unity that allows higher understanding.

3. The Church of God is not an earthly organization and encompasses the entire world with those who follow true principles. The true church=s membership, according to Swedenborg, is fundamentally spiritual and its membership known but to God. New Church people are always very careful to distinguish human organizations designed to implement such uses as religious instruction from the true spiritual church, despite the same word being used to refer to both. (Arcana Coelestia 8152, Apocalypse Explained 304). The earliest concept of AChrist=s Church@ taught in LDS teachings was fairly close to Swedenborg=s teachings.[18] The present LDS concept is that the Church of Christ is a specific organization places less emphasis on the nature of the members and gives far more importance to the institutional church (Doctrine and Covenants 1:30).

4. Christ redeems the world, but there is no vicarious payment for the sins of others (True Christian Religion 132, 133). LDS doctrine and mainstream Christianity state that Christ was slain for the sins of the world (D&C. 29:40-45; 2 Nephi 9:6-9; 2 Nephi 11:3). According to Swedenborg, the idea that God would be sufficiently angry with the human race to withhold his blessings until he killed his own Son to appease that anger is more characteristic of a monster than a gracious God. According to Swedenborg, Christ came to reset the good-evil equilibrium among men, since it had become unbalanced in the direction of evil as a result of men=s actions over history up till that time and so was interfering with free agency. In his system, anyone who goes to hell does so, not because of being punished for sins in the world, even terrible ones, but because, if he is of a hellish nature, he will want to continue such sinning in the other world. And the only place you can do that is hell. Christ=s temptation and suffering, according to Swedenborg, was primarily on the spiritual plane and continued from the moment of his birth, though only manifested externally (and correspondingly) at the end. As part of what Swedenborg terms the glorification process, Christ eliminated all of his human nature derived from the Mary-based heredity and brought about a new level of union with the Divine. Swedenborg states that Christ restored the hells to order through his life and sacrifice reopened the spiritual link of men with the heavens to operate on the earth through men once more (True Christian Religion 116). LDS doctrine holds that despite the intervention of Christ in behalf of mankind, we must still reform our lives and obey laws and ordinances (Rev. 13:8; Heb. 5:8-11; Matt. 7:21; 2 Ne. 2:22-27). LDS doctrine represents something a midpoint between Swedenborg and mainstream Christianity since LDS doctrine maintains that the atonement was mainly accomplished in the Garden of Gethsemane (2 Ne. 9:21, JC, p. 613,Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Atonement, Vol 1). Rather than viewing the atonement as a vicarious punishment, LDS doctrine sees it as Divine assistance, allowing men to be resurrected (an LDS term which means to inherit one of the heavens or hell after being reclothed with flesh, 2 Nephi 2:8, 9:6-7, 9:12, Mosiah 3:11), nullifying the sin of Adam. LDS doctrine also contains the traditional Christian understanding that Christ was punished vicariously for our sins to satisfy the demands of justice imposed on mankind by the Father (2 Nephi 9:26, Alma 34:8-10, 16, Alma 42:22-24) which Swedenborg declares is incorrect.

5. We should strive to become one with God, not gods. Swedenborg lays great emphasis on the first commandment, and says that the idea of multiple gods in the Christian church=s concept of the trinity was so fundamentally evil that it brought about the spiritual death of that church (Heaven and Hell 391, 508, 535, Conjugial Love 264) Mormons believe that God is infinite, possesses all things and created all things that were created. They also believe that God can share all things with His children, allowing them to be co-creators and act His stead and call this state godhood (D&C 76:58, 132:20). Swedenborg equates those who believe they are gods in the afterlife with those who indulged in self-love in this life, and are consequently in hell in the eternities (Conjugial Love 262, 264). Swedenborg agrees with the current LDS view that when Bible says Agods@ it can refer to heavenly beings (Heaven and Hell 8). According to Swedenborg, referring to angels (inhabitants of heaven) as Agods@ in no way implies that they are worthy of worship.



6. Resurrection does not require the reconstruction of the physical body (Arcana Coelestia 4459, 4783, Divine Love and Wisdom 221, Heaven and Hell 445, 447, 456, Divine Love and Wisdom 221). For Swedenborg, resurrection occurred as a spirit enters the world of spirits immediately after death. In this state the spirit discovers that they exist with a body and feelings and lives exactly as before, with the exception that the body and all the surroundings are spiritual, that is, made out of spiritual rather than physical substance. Swedenborg says that the sharper senses of those in the spiritual realm make it far more clearly sensed B Areal@ B than is possible in the physical realm. The corporeal nature of the spirit being is so much like its former state that some spirits are not immediately aware that they have died. Swedenborg denies that a physical resurrection occurs with one exception, Christ (Divine Love and Wisdom 221). He indicates, however, that the nature of Christ=s body has become spiritual as physical aspects are purged from it. LDS doctrine has similar ideas with respect to the sameness of the human existence immediately after death (Alma 40) and that the body after the resurrection is spiritual by nature (Doctrine and Covenants 88:27). Many LDS scriptures speak of the reuniting of the spirit and body (Alma 40:15-18) and are understood to mean that the deceased physical frame shall be reconstructed and reunited with the spirit. Mormons interpret scriptures like Matt. 27:52 and 3 Ne. 23:9-10 which speak of graves being opened to be further evidence of a physical resurrection. Mormons claim that 1 Cor 15:41-42 ("There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the starsY. So also is the resurrection of the dead") and those in Alma mean that the resurrection happens immediately before our entry into one of the heavens or hell. Swedenborg specifically addressees belief in a physical resurrection as being typical of Christianity and incorrect (Heaven and Hell 456). Alma agrees somewhat with Swedenborg=s definition of the resurrection by speaking of entering the spirit by stating AYea, I admit it may be termed a resurrection@ (Alma 40:15, Heaven and Hell 445, 447). Alma goes on to explain that he feels that the resurrection is more than that, implying a physical resurrection.

7. Swedenborg indicates that the spirit commences its existence at conception, but is not fully formed until its first breath is drawn (Moses 3:5, Arcana Coelestia 3570). According to Swedenborg, being born in heaven would remove free agency since there would be no choice but to follow good and truth. The LDS concept is that in the preexistence we make choices concerning life experiences, family, etc. Otherwise, God Himself is responsible situations in which we find ourselves in life.

8. It is our motives and our thoughts and actions derived from those motives that take us to heaven, rather than ordinances (nearly all of Swedenborg=s works). This is largely a matter of difference of emphasis between the teachings of Swedenborg and LDS doctrine since LDS ideas echo that baptism cannot allow evil people to enter heaven or the lack of baptism will not be an absolute obstacle for the righteous. For example Heber C. Kimball stated, AYou might as well go and be baptized for a devil as for a man who will not receive the Gospel in the spirit-worldA(Journal of Discourses, Vol.5, p.90). It should be remembered that all LDS ordinances are covenants that require performance on the part of the individual who partakes of them.

9. Swedenborg said that no children are born in marriages in heaven because to be born in heaven would eliminate free will (Heaven and Hell 382b). There are, however, correspondential equivalents of children in heavenly marriages, in the form of the Abirth@ of new goods and truths.


History and Possible Influence

The question of whether Joseph Smith borrowed heavily from Swedenborg is implied by the many similarities between the teachings of the two men and the fact that Swedenborg=s work was written and distributed prior to Joseph Smith=s lifetime. The mix of similarities and differences raises the question of whether Joseph Smith filtered a great deal and extrapolated the rest to come up with what we today recognize as LDS doctrine.[19] Whether Joseph Smith actually knew much of Swedenborg=s teachings, however, is difficult to answer. I found that Joseph Smith could have had access to all of Swedenborg=s teachings but whether he was significantly influenced by those teachings cannot be proven from the evidence I have gleaned. Any influence would not detract from the reality of the experience of either Joseph or Swedenborg but might add additional insight into how the Lord helped the latter-day work along.

New Church members in New York conducted a media campaign during Joseph Smith=s era using newspapers to inform the public about Swedenborg and his teachings.[20] These efforts may have born fruit in Joseph=s home area because a piece on Swedenborg appeared on the front page of the Canadaigua newspaper, a town some 12 miles from the Smith home, in 1808.[21] This may have been submitted to the paper by New Church members rather than being the work of the paper=s own editors since, according to Brooke, interest in Swedenborg in this area was not great.[22] However, it is unlikely that this influenced the Smiths greatly since they did not move to New York from Vermont until 1816.

A mail-order newspaper advertisement for Heaven and Hell appeared in the Canadaigua newspaper in 1826.[23] New Church members used this book as a missionary tract, and the fact that it was being sold for a time does not necessarily mean that it was causing a great stir or attracted much interest, since some LDS researchers could find no evidence that the local library owned a copy[24]. The individual who placed the ads may have been Charles Harford, a Swedenborgian who moved to Rochester, New York in 1826 and stayed till 1834.[25] Rochester is about 24 miles from Palmyra on today=s roads. I could find no evidence that Mr. Harford ever had any communication with anyone from the LDS population other than the advertisements which appeared in local papers.

Swedenborg=s works were distributed to the public and at least 7,000 copies of Swedenborg=s works were produced in the United States prior to the organization of the LDS Church in 1830.[26] It is likely that these were mostly Heaven and Hell. Michael Quinn, a well known Mormon historian, indicates that Joseph Smith did read books that contained information about Swedenborg and his doctrines,[27]about 20 pages which seem to have been digested from Heaven and Hell. but does not indicate that Joseph had access to works written by Swedenborg himself.[28]

Could Joseph have obtained knowledge about Swedenborg=s teachings from someone intimately acquainted with AThe Writings?@ Some estimate of the possibilities can be gained by trying to determine where New Church members may have been located in the area.

There were three congregations of New Church members in Spencer, Platkill, and Newburgh, about 75 miles from the Smith home.[29] As previously stated, New Church records also show a member in Rochester, New York, about 24 miles from the Smith home in Palmyra. In 1817 a census of the New Church showed that in New York city there were 45 members.[30] By 1830 the membership of the New Church had nearly doubled.[31] New Church members tended to be found mostly in larger cities or other refined metropolitan areas, not in small towns like Palmyra. I could find no record of New Church presence in the Palmyra area, unless Rochester and its member are counted.

One potential New Church acquaintance was Hannah Holland. When the Smith family resided in Sharon, Vermont, a New Church member from Holland, Hannah Holland[32], lived about twenty miles away in Woodstock Vermont. She moved there in 1775 and later married a man named Smith. Hannah brought all of Swedenborg=s works in Latin from the Old World. Some of her ten sons later migrated across the country to Cincinnati to establish a New Church society in that area. Had the Smiths known Ms. Holland they would have had access to all of Swedenborg=s writings, but Hannah would have been required to explain the Latin versions. I could find no evidence that Hannah Holland had any connections with the Smiths or the Church at any time. Since the Holland children were later effective ministers and the family had the training to read the Writings in Latin, they must have been very enthusiastic and willing to speak to others. This could eventually be one link to the Smith=s, but firm documentary evidence is slim.

One other interesting connection between Swedenborg and Joseph Smith is through Sarah Cleveland, a plural wife of Joseph Smith who, according to the historian Todd Compton, was sealed to him around 1842.[33] At the time of her plural marriage, Sarah Cleveland was married to John Cleveland, a Swedenborgian who apparently knew nothing of her plural marriage to Joseph Smith. Sarah joined the LDS Church in 1835 and in 1836 she and her husband moved to Quincy, Illinois. When Nauvoo became the center of Mormonism in 1839 after the saints were expelled from Missouri, the Clevelands found themselves living near the center of the Church. The Smiths and Clevelands became friends after Emma Smith and her children lived with the Clevelands for a short time in 1839 while Joseph was in jail. Joseph rewarded the Clevelands with a plot of land in Nauvoo. There is no mention in Todd Compton=s documentation of this story that Joseph had any conversations with Mr. Cleveland about Swedenborg=s teachings, nor did Mr. Compton mention that Sarah exhibited any interest in Swedenborg after her baptism.

Individuals with Joseph Smith=s educational and financial background were generally not interested in or exposed to the teachings of Swedenborg, nor did they have the social connections to introduce themselves to Swedenborgian teachings. Marguerite Block writes concerning the growth and popularity of the New Church, AThis rather slow growth was due to the nature of the doctrines themselves, which required a fairly high degree of education and intelligence for their comprehension, as well as considerable leisure for their perusal.@[34] To be truthful, from my own experience, Swedenborg=s writings are not an easy read, and require a high degree of dedication to grasp what is written. Joseph Smith was neither highly educated nor endowed with a great amount of leisure time, which would appear to make him an unlikely candidate to be reading the sage=s teachings.

Joseph Smith=s only quote about Swedenborg made in 1839 is rather cryptic, AEmanuel Swedenborg had a view of the world to come, but for daily food he perished.@[35] This was directed to Edward Hunter, a Swedenborgian convert who later became a presiding bishop of the Church. Brother Hunter took this to mean that Swedenborg=s teachings were lacking and from that point on gave Swedenborg=s teachings no credibility. Edward Hunter converted to the LDS Church in 1839 after protecting the Mormon elders when they came through the area preaching the gospel. Joseph stayed with Edward for three days and discussed a number of topics, among them the teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg. From these conversations Joseph may have received all of the information required to give this opinion before they parted.

There are no close associates of Joseph Smith who mention Swedenborg or his teachings who give any indication that they had actually read, first-hand, anything he had written. For example, Orson Pratt stated the following.


Did Swedenborg, Irving, Wesley, or any other person, not only teach a pure system, but at the same time did they declare that it was committed to them by an angel from heaven? If not, however pure and holy their teaching, they were not divinely authorized to administer in ordinances. Divine Authority No.1, pg 3


Swedenborg claimed many times to have spoken with angels; which indicates that Orson Pratt had little knowledge of his writings. His other comments reveal his belief that Mormonism is true, and that all others are false, which was common among Church leaders of that time. Brigham Young, who spoke his mind freely on numerous topics, never mentioned Swedenborg in any recorded talks. In Parley Pratt=s only statement about Emanuel Swedenborg he claims that Swedenborg denied the resurrection[36]. It seems that early LDS Church leaders and members had dismissed Emanuel Swedenborg without a great deal of thought. It also seems that their knowledge about Swedenborg may have come from unsympathetic third parties who summarized Swedenborg=s teachings with a negative slant.

I did investigate whether Joseph Smith may have learned of Swedenborgianism through Masonic ritual, but discovered this would have been very unlikely and present the evidence here for future researchers. Emanuel Swedenborg was a Mason from the age of eighteen and actively involved until 1740 with the exception of a visit in 1769 to a Lodge in France.[37] After Swedenborg published his first theological works, former associates came to him wanting to know his opinions of the Masonic order and what errors he might wish to correct in its teachings. He replied to these queries and in 1769-1770 wrote to the Royal Society of Stockholm in which he explained Egyptian hieroglyphics by means of his new system.[38] Eventually the modified ritual in Sweden had an influence on Masonry in the United States, but not until 1859, which would have been too late to have been of any importance to the beginnings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.[39]

Not many others have delved into these similarities. Recently Brent and Wendy Top wrote Beyond Death=s Door, which quoted many pages of Swedenborg=s Heaven and Hell and revealed many similarities with LDS doctrine. Before that time a historian who has studied Swedenborgians, Mary Ann Meyers, wrote Death in Swedenborgian and Mormon Eschatology[40], in which she outlines some of Swedenborg=s teachings and hints that Joseph Smith may have borrowed from him.[41] BYU Studies has included some articles which briefly mention Swedenborg. D. Michael Quinn dedicated a few pages to Swedenborg in Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, but evidently never read much of Swedenborg=s writings or he would have covered more similarities than just the three heavens.


Conclusions


If Swedenborg=s teachings did have a profound influence on Joseph Smith, I find it unlikely that Joseph Smith would have received all his information about Swedenborg=s teachings from reading the Writings first hand. First, his mother states that by the age of eighteen he hadn=t read the Bible through and was less inclined to reading than any other of the Smith children.[42] Secondly, most New Church members have only read a few of Swedenborg=s works because, though interesting, they are not an easy read. Joseph Smith may have been exposed to Heaven and Hell in English during his lifetime or a digested review of Swedenborg=s teachings. A digest or Heaven and Hellwould seem an unlikely source for some of the detailed information like the use of priesthood robes in heavenly marriage or the division of the celestial heaven/kingdom into three, neither of these ideas being found in Heaven and Hell nor are these common topics of study among students of Swedenborg.

If there has been influence from the teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg on the teachings and writings of Joseph Smith, to me the most likely scenario may be that Joseph Smith knew a well read New Church member or members who were very familiar with the AWritings.@ At least one of these individuals would have had to have known Joseph Smith before the Book of Mormon was written. We don=t know how brushes with individuals who were acquainted with the Swedish mystic=s teachings such as Hannah Holland of Vermont who possessed a complete edition of the AWritings,@ the missionary minded Charles Harford of Rochester, the converts Edward Hunter or Sarah Cleveland may have influenced Joseph. I did not make a serious attempt to determine how much Emma Hale Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, David Whitmer, or others closely associated with the prophet may have known of Swedenborg=s teachings.

I=m sure that as researchers dig further more possible connections will be found, all of which probably still not prove a positive connection with Swedenborgianism. Given the uniqueness of some of the ideas found in Swedenborg=s and Joseph Smith=s teachings, it still seems likely that some sort of connection between the two must exist. Is this is as the result of Joseph becoming aware of the Swedish mystic=s teachings or another connection with influences beyond the veil?

Perhaps Joseph Smith has copied portions of Swedenborg=s teachings. Certainly the information provided here cannot rule that out. Nevertheless, it may be helpful to remember that simultaneous discovery is common in science. A look at history reveals a number of instances where ideas pop up at nearly the same time in far flung locations on the earth, known in philosophical circles as a Azeitgeist,@ or spirit of the times. This can be observed in spiritual matters as well. Consider, for example, others whose teachings were similar to LDS or Swedenborgianism but who have no obvious connection with the LDS Church or Swedenborg. Allow me to illustrate one example.

Indian mystics call the Christian heaven, hell, and world of spirits the Aastral world.@[43] The heavenly realm is divided into three regions.[44] The middle region and lowest region also appear to have three divisions.[45] In the highest realm can be found AAlakh Niranjan@ or the Unknowable God.[46] The lowest three regions (chakras) involve a focus on wealth, power, sex, and violent battles.[47] Barbara Brenan in Hands of Light also mentions that beings in the afterlife occupy spiritual realms related to the nine major chakras.[48] Brenan also stated that she does not observe spirits who are related to the first three levels.[49] However, this may be because those beings avoid healers, or as Swedenborg noticed, spirits from the hells (the lowest 3 levels of the spiritual realms) tend to turn away from spiritual light.[50] Ms. Brennan did not get this particular piece of information from other sources since she stated that she could not find a reference to these nine levels in any literature.[51] To me, these ideas sound very similar to both the AWritings@ and LDS doctrine, more so than they would be to traditional Christian philosophy. The question of who copied from whom may well mask another connection between all these teachers - the possibility that they all have knowledge which arises from personal experience.

Why all the differences? People at the scene of an accident will report all sorts of stories about the same events. From our own experience we know that personal perception of any truth is flawed. More flaws creep in when we attempt to describe that perception to someone else not present at the time of the accident. Perhaps for this reason, the Lord has stated that out of the mouths of two or three witnesses shall every ecclesiastical case or accusation be established (Deuteronomy 19:15, Matthew 18:16, 2 Corinthians 13:1, 1 Timothy 5:19). Perhaps a similar standard should be established for verifying spiritual truth since those who claim spiritual experience seem to vary in their witness as well.

In the end our conclusion about whether Joseph was influenced by the Swedish mystic will be a personal one, illustrating the teaching of Swedenborg and the Book of Mormon which state that we are suspended at all times between opposing choices (Heaven and Hell 591, 2 Nephi 2:11). My own bias is that while Swedenborg may have influenced LDS teachings, that Joseph Smith was also the recipient of his own unique spiritual experience. Nevertheless, this information is not presented to persuade the reader, but rather to help illustrate the importance of a little known Servant of the Lord from a far off land in Northern Europe.
"Article

I'm sorry but I once got in trouble for making such a long direct post like that.

To much to even read.
 
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Also how do you account for LDS afterlife ideas already printed in a book that JS had access to? proof is in the links I gave and likely in the quotes too.

Could two men read the same bible and draw the same conclusion?
 
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Could two men read the same bible and draw the same conclusion?
In Acts 13 we have the example of the gospel that Paul preached. It was that gospel that caused the whole city to turn out the next Sabbath to hear what Paul had to say, and many turned to Christ. That sermon contains the foundations of the gospel. If preachers, whatever the denomination, depart from the gospel that Paul preached that day, are not preaching the gospel of Christ, but another gospel and another Jesus.
 
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Note: LDS don't believe in speaking with the dead in any divination practice or anything like that. I find such an idea to be...disturbing to greatly understate it.
It's a good thing that LDS people don't speak with the dead, because the only reference in Scripture is when Saul consulted with the witch of Endor who brought back Samuel from the dead, in the hope that Samuel would advise him what to do in the coming battle with the Philistines. Because no one comes back from the dead, it is obvious it wasn't Samuel, but an impersonating demon. This is an object lesson for us that we should not involve ourselves in necromancy (communicating with the dead) because we would be conversing and being influenced by demons instead.
 
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Spiritualism and Mormonism - Norton Safe Search

Swedenborgism Joseph Smith - Norton Safe Search

"
One place where we do find a close affinity to the line of thinking presented in the Book of Mormon is in the doctrine of the New Church, also called Swedenborgianism, a religion based on the esoteric writings of the Swedish mystic visionary Emmanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772). Direct evidence exists indicating that Joseph Smith and his family were familiar with Swedenborgianism. Not only were the Smith family’s occult magical parchments copied from a book that also contained an extended summary of Swedenborg’s teaching, but Joseph Smith himself made mention of Swedenborg and a certain aspect of his teaching in 1839.12

In “A Catechism for the Use of the New Church,” quoted here from a version of it printed in New Hampshire in 1805, we find the following affirmation:13

I believe that Jehovah God, the Creator of heaven and earth, is one in essence and in person, in whom there is a divine Trinity, consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is that God.

This language sounds familiar to anyone who has read the Book of Mormon. It reminds us, for example, of Mosiah 3:5: “the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, which was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from Heaven, among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay.”"
Joseph Smith’s Modalism: Sabellian Sequentialism or Swedenborgian Expansionism?

There is a lot more related to this connection in the article above.

So I'm awake at 3am and do some reading. I went to fairmormon and read through their article and then several other on line.

No one living at the time of Joseph Smith ever thought his ideas came from Swedenborg. The first time the allegation is mentioned is by excommunicated Michael Quinn, he was exed for his sinful gay behavior. His whole life has since been an effort to find fault with the Mormon church. You have to be very very careful with his quotes. The quote here that Joseph and his family were familiar Swendenborgism thus he borrowed from it is more than a stretch. In 1839 a man converted from Swendenborgism to Mormonism. It's easy to assume this man explained to Joseph Smith its doctrines and so Joseph then commented on it. Joseph's vision of the three degrees of glory came 6 years earlier.

Both doctrines draw from Paul saying the resurrection is like the sun, the moon and the stars but that's about as close as it gets. Swendenborg doesn't seem to believe in an actual resurrection which is the basics to Joseph's idea.

They both however teach eternal marriage but Swendenborg rejects polygamy and we all know Joseph did not.
 
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In Rev 21 an angel speaks to John and tells him many things. John tries to worship him but he says don't do it for I am your brother and one of the prophets. So we have here a dead prophet sent to John speaking to him.

Rev 21 says no such thing. John tries to worship an angel in Rev 19 and Rev 22, and in neither passage does the angel ever say that he was "one of the prophets".
 
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Matthew 22:32 says that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Here is what Romans says:
Romans 14:9King James Version (KJV)
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

How do you reconcile these 2 scriptures???

Their context is much different. They are not contradictory statements.


In Matt 22 Jesus was speaking to the Sadducees who did not believe in a resurrection.


Jesus in verse 32 made reference back to Exodus 3:6 &15. Jesus was assuring the Sadducees that even though Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had died physically they were not dead as the Sadducees believed with no hope of resurrection.


Romans 14:9 is quite a different context. In the first part of verse 9 says Christ both died and rose. Verse 8 is the key .


Romans 8:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.


Those that live for Christ are the Lord’s whether in death or in life.





A text without a context is a pretext!
 
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After reading through this thread I had the thought that Mormonism is similar to Freemasonry in the sense that the rank and file members of both organizations have no clue what is taking place in the upper echelons of the organization. In both cases there are many good and sincere people who have no evil intent but have turned a blind eye to the facts of history and reality.


BTW there are real connections to both organizations.


Again most members of both organizations are good and honest people but the top of both organizations are corrupt and have nothing in common with Christianity.
 
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It is that JS receives the full truth by revelation from the Lord.




When I debate with a Muslim they have “the full truth”


When I debate with a Jehovah witness the have “the full truth”


When I debate with a Catholic they have the “the full truth”


When I debate a SDA they have the “the full truth”


When I debate with a Freemason they have the “the full truth”


My friend do you not see a problem with all of this? It is a very dangerous this to think any organization founded by man has all the truth..


Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Truth can only be found in the pages of the Holy Scriptures. That is not the Book of Mormon, the Koran, the New World perversion of the word of God, Morals and Dogma or the Catechism Your church does not have all of the truth. Sorry to be so blunt, but this is reality.


Please do not ignore the real history of the Mormon Church.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Quite long but contains much history and information given by a former Mormon.

If anyone can refute these facts please do so. If you don't watch it your opinion of this is not valid.
These type of videos are usually so riddle with errors, I don't know where to start. So I flipped to a random point (1:05:33)

It claims LDS believes the following (it's sayings in quotes, mine not):
-Christ "is our elder brother". This is true: LDS believe that the Father is the Father of ALL. There is no other. Last time I checked Creedal Christians also believe that this, so it's not really LDS specific.
-"He is the spirit brother of Lucifer and all of us". Same as above.
-The next point the video makes is a classic anti-Mormon lie. If you want to read what LDS believe about Christ's conception and birth, I refer you to Luke (that's actual LDS doctrine). If you want to talk about non-docterineal statements taken out of context, I can refer you to source there.
-"The atonement has nothing to do with the cross". Completely lie.
 
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Ironhold

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Quite long but contains much history and information given by a former Mormon.

If anyone can refute these facts please do so. If you don't watch it your opinion of this is not valid.

Pro tip:

Telling people to watch a two-and-a-half hour video without offering up any sort of summary is pretty much guaranteed to ensure that folks *don't* watch it.

I can see a regular-length movie and knock out a review for it in that time.
 
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