LDS speaking with the dead

Daniel Marsh

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Spirit world manifestations by Joseph Heinerman

Is there order in the Spirit World? Are mortals aided in genealogical work by divine beings? How have spirit personages helped missionaries? THESE AND NUMEROUS OTHER SIMILAR QUESTIONS HAVE ARISEN IN THE INQUISITIVE MIND OF THOSE WHO HAVE SEARCHED DILIGENTLY FOR THE EVERLASTING TRUTH. OF THE MULTIPLICITY OF CHRISTIAN CREEDS AND DENOMINATIONS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS IS THE ONLY TRUE CLAIMANT TO THAT PROFOUND YET PECULIAR DOCTRINE OF SALVATION FOR THE DEAD IN WHICH SPECIFIC PRINCIPLES SUCH AS GENEALOGICAL RESEARCH, TEMPLE WORK AND OTHER SPIRIT WORLD-RELATED TENETS ARE EMPHATICALLY DELINEATED. (portrayed) BECAUSE THE CHURCH WAS FOUNDED UPON HEAVENLY REVELATION IT, UNLIKE OTHER CONTEMPORANEOUS RELIGIONS, HAS ACCESS TO THOSE DIVINE PRIESTHOOD BLESSINGS AND SPIRITUAL GIFTS WHICH FLOURISHED AND WERE IMMENSELY ENJOYED BY THE FAITHFUL SAINTS OF GOD FROM TIME IMMEMORIAL. LATTER-DAY SAINTS ARE INDEED PRIVILEGED TO RECEIVE THESE SAME BLESSINGS FROM BEYOND THE VEIL FOR, LIKE THE RIGHTEOUS ANCIENTS, THEY CAN ALSO COMMUNICATE WITH OR RECEIVE MANIFESTATIONS FROM GOD, HIS ANGELS OR OTHER DIVINE BEINGS FROM THE SPIRIT WORLD.

Temple Manifestations
by Joseph Heinerman



Why does God require His people to build temples? What constitutes temple work in the salvation for the dead? Are spirit world inhabitants aware of the work being performed for them?

"The temples, the houses of our God, when acceptably dedicated, become to us the gates of heaven. They are esteemed most holy unto the Lord of all places upon the earth, therein the faithful approach nearest unto God, and obtain the greatest fellowship and inspiration of His Holy Spirit."

These words, spoken by Franklin D. Richards of the Quorum of the Twelve, typify the often-reiterated Latter-day Saint belief that the Savior, the hosts of heaven, and beings from the spirit world only manifest themselves in specifically designated sanctuaries, namely, the holy temples. And President Wilford Woodruff, in speaking to the workmen completing the Salt Lake Temple in the forepart of 1893, said that the dedication of the Temple on April 6, 1893 was shown him in vision fifty years earlier in the city of Boston. He went on to say that the laborers working on the Temple were foreordained in the pre-existent
world to perform this work.

Since the inception of the Church in 1830, all faithful recipients of the Restored Gospel have been engaged in temple-building endeavors from the Kirtland Temple to the current construction of the Washington D.C. Temple. All knowledgeable Latter-day Saints are fully aware of the importance of temples and the administration of temple ordinances for both the living and the dead. Consequently, it has been a constant desire among Mormons to erect holy houses unto the Most High God so that heavenly personages can reveal themselves to mortals in wonderful temple manifestations.

Moroni: Messenger of the Restoration - Joseph Smith
Moroni: Messenger of the Restoration
Sep 11, 2013 ... On the night of September 21, 1823, Joseph Smith prayed to know God's further will toward him. Steadily a light grew "as though the house was filled with consuming and unquenchable fire." 1 Moroni, a messenger sent from God, stood before him. In mortal life Moroni had been the last of ancient American ...

The Founding Fathers of this nation, those great men, appeared within those sacred walls of the St. George Temple and had their vicarious work done for them. President Wilford Woodruff spoke of it in these words: “Before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, `You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God.'”

After he became President of the Church, President Wilford Woodruff declared that “those men who laid the foundation of this American government were the best spirits the God of heaven could find on the face of the earth. They were choice spirits [and] were inspired of the Lord.”

The temple work for the fifty-six signers of the Declaration of Independence and other Founding Fathers has been done. All these appeared to Wilford Woodruff when he was president of the St. George Temple. President George Washington was ordained a high priest at that time. You will also be interested to know that, according to Wilford Woodruff’s journal, John Wesley, Benjamin Franklin, and Christopher Columbus were also ordained high priests at that time. When one casts doubt about the character of these noble sons of God, I believe he or she will have to answer to the God of heaven for it. Yes, with Lincoln I say: “To add brightness to the sun or glory to the name of Washington is . . . impossible. Let none attempt it. In solemn awe pronounce the name and in its deathless splendor, leave it shining on.”

Source: Benson, Ezra Taft, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988. 602 – 604.

Perhaps I may be permitted to relate a circumstance with which I am acquainted in relation to Bishop Roskelley, of Smithfield, Cache Valley. On one occasion he was taken very sick – near to death’s door. While he lay in this condition, President Peter Maughan, who was dead, came to him and said: “Brother Roskelley, we held a council on the other side of the veil. I have had a great deal to do, and I have the privilege of coming here to appoint one man to come and help. I have had three names given to me in council, and you are one of them. I want to inquire into your circumstances.” The Bishop told him what he had to do, and they conversed together as one man would converse with another. President Maughan then said to him: “I think I will not call you. I think you are wanted here more than perhaps one of the others.” Bishop Roskelley got well from that hour.

Very soon after, the second man was taken sick, but not being able to exercise sufficient faith, Bishop Roskelley did not go to him. By and by, this man recovered, and on meeting Bishop Roskelley he said: “Brother Maughan came to me the other night and told me he was sent to call one man from the ward,” and he named two men as had been done to Brother Roskelley. A few days afterwards the third man was taken sick and died. Now, I name this to show a principle. They have work on the other side of the veil, and they call them.”

(JD, 22:334)
Spirit World – The Fairest Gem
john wesley columbusjournal of discourses vol 19 p 229 - Google Search
 

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Speaking with the dead is divination. One of the things that lost King Saul his kingdom was that he tried to bring Samuel back from the dead to ask his advice. If people have experiences of speaking with the dead, they are not speaking with the actual people, but with impersonating demons. When a person dies they go out into eternity and there is such a wide gulf between this world and eternity, that there is absolutely no communication between the two states.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Speaking with the dead is divination. One of the things that lost King Saul his kingdom was that he tried to bring Samuel back from the dead to ask his advice. If people have experiences of speaking with the dead, they are not speaking with the actual people, but with impersonating demons. When a person dies they go out into eternity and there is such a wide gulf between this world and eternity, that there is absolutely no communication between the two states.
Note: LDS don't believe in speaking with the dead in any divination practice or anything like that. I find such an idea to be...disturbing to greatly understate it.
 
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Note: LDS don't believe in speaking with the dead in any divination practice or anything like that. I find such an idea to be...disturbing to greatly understate it.
I'm glad to hear it. I see that there is an ordinance where there are baptisms for the dead. I don't think that is anything like divination. This may indicate that Mormons believe that baptism is essential for salvation and if a person dies without baptism, there needs to be a posthumous ceremony for them.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Note: LDS don't believe in speaking with the dead in any divination practice or anything like that. I find such an idea to be...disturbing to greatly understate it.

Good to know Jane, but are early LDS leader's doing it?

The patriarch saw “the spirits of those for whom they were officiating in the font by proxy. There the spirits stood awaiting their turn, and, as the Recorder called out the name of a person to be baptized for, the patriarch noticed a pleasant smile come over the face of the spirit whose name had been called, and he would leave the group of fellow spirits and pass over to the side of the Recorder. There he would watch his own baptism performed by proxy, and then with a joyful countenance would pass away [to] make room for the next favored personage who was to enjoy the same privilege.”

As time went on, the patriarch noticed that some of the spirits looked very sad. He realized that the people in the temple were finished with baptisms for the day. The unhappy spirits were those whose baptisms would not be performed that day.

“‘I often think of this event,’ says Brother Carpenter, ‘for I so often sit at the font, and call off the names for the ordinances to be performed which means so much to the dead’” (quoted in Joseph Heinerman, Temple Manifestations [Manti, Utah: Mountain Valley Publishers, 1974], pp. 101–2; see also The Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine 11 [July 1920]: 119).
Mormonism and Visitations from the Dead | Mormon Coffee
 
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Jane_Doe

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Good to know Jane, but are early LDS leader's doing it?

The patriarch saw “the spirits of those for whom they were officiating in the font by proxy. There the spirits stood awaiting their turn, and, as the Recorder called out the name of a person to be baptized for, the patriarch noticed a pleasant smile come over the face of the spirit whose name had been called, and he would leave the group of fellow spirits and pass over to the side of the Recorder. There he would watch his own baptism performed by proxy, and then with a joyful countenance would pass away [to] make room for the next favored personage who was to enjoy the same privilege.”

As time went on, the patriarch noticed that some of the spirits looked very sad. He realized that the people in the temple were finished with baptisms for the day. The unhappy spirits were those whose baptisms would not be performed that day.

“‘I often think of this event,’ says Brother Carpenter, ‘for I so often sit at the font, and call off the names for the ordinances to be performed which means so much to the dead’” (quoted in Joseph Heinerman, Temple Manifestations [Manti, Utah: Mountain Valley Publishers, 1974], pp. 101–2; see also The Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine 11 [July 1920]: 119).
Mormonism and Visitations from the Dead | Mormon Coffee
Nothing in here is talking about speaking to the dead.
(Note: "Mormon Coffee" is a site which dispenses false information about LDS beliefs, so I don't blame you for you confusion. ).
 
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Nothing in here is talking about speaking to the dead.
(Note: "Mormon Coffee" is a site which dispenses false information about LDS beliefs, so I don't blame you for you confusion. ).
Looks like it is on the same level as the new book about Trump - full of false information made up out of a person's fantasies.
 
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There's a vast difference between "summoning spirits" and "being allowed to see to the other side."

Most of what you're talking about is the latter.
The only ones that I believe are those who died on the operating table then were brought back to life, and described being in heaven seeing their loved ones and Jesus. But I don't believe that what is seen during a baptism for the dead ritual is anything else but demon spirits impersonating the spirits of the dead.
 
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Jane_Doe

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The only ones that I believe are those who died on the operating table then were brought back to life, and described being in heaven seeing their loved ones and Jesus. But I don't believe that what is seen during a baptism for the dead ritual is anything else but demon spirits impersonating the spirits of the dead.
No one is asking for you to believe it. However, we are clarifying what the quotes are saying. Again, no one is talking about "summoning spirits".
 
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I'm not here to misconstrued your beliefs or to mock them. I would appreciate the same courtesy.
I am quite serious about what I said. I think that the book against Trump is a travesty of lies and it gets me steamed up about these lying attempts to get Trump fired as President. All this comes out of sheer jealousy that he was elected President when they favoured Hillary Clinton. So I am not being discourteous to you. You yourself said that the Mormon Coffee site is a misinformation site.
 
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Jane_Doe

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I am quite serious about what I said. I think that the book against Trump is a travesty of lies and it gets me steamed up about these lying attempts to get Trump fired as President. All this comes out of sheer jealousy that he was elected President when they favoured Hillary Clinton. So I am not being discourteous to you. You yourself said that the Mormon Coffee site is a misinformation site.
Ah, you were talking about the Mormon Coffee site. I misunderstood, my apologies.
 
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Ah, you were talking about the Mormon Coffee site. I misunderstood, my apologies.
Having a Pentecostal/Charismatic background, I have seen the good, bad and ugly side, and some of the "spooky spiritual" stuff that happens in the lunatic fringe. I guess your church would be no different. From what I know of the Mormons I have met, and they have all been good people with a sincere faith, I have not heard of any "spooky spiritual" encounters like visible spirits of the dead appearing at baptisms for the dead. The Roman Catholics have something similar in that they will have a Mass for the dead. Paul speaks of those who baptise for the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:29 in relation to his discourse on the Resurrection. He says that it happens and does not seem to disapprove of it. It seems that people do it to give them a level of comfort in the same way that Roman Catholics believe that their loved ones go to Purgatory so they can be purged of their sins and perhaps make it to heaven after all. We don't really know what happens when people die and go out into eternity, except that Paul said of himself, "Absent from the body, present with the Lord." All the other stories, like Dante's Inferno and similar works are fiction. Jesus gave a clue about heaven where He said that there are many mansions, and that people don't get married there. There is another story, and I am not sure whether it is a true one or one of Jesus' parables where the rich man went to hell and Lazarus went into the bosom of Abraham. The Book of Revelation gives pictures of what eternity will be like, but it is full of symbolism, the keys of which have largely been lost over time, so people can make only educated guesses about it. But what we do know is that Christian believers will be worshiping before the throne of God and Jesus will be the final victor.

I would not be surprised if there were a lot of Mormon believers there as well, because all that is needed to be saved according to Peter in Acts 2 is that one believes that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead. I am assured that most Mormons believe that and although there are doctrines which may not be agreed to by what I would call the mainstream, they are doing the will of God in that Jesus said that the will of God is to believe on Him whom God has sent.

I have heard of a movement within the LDS church called "Mormons for Christ" made up of believers who have accepted Christ as Saviour but have decided to stay in the Mormon Church so that they can help their fellow believers have their experience with God enhanced through a stronger faith in Christ.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Having a Pentecostal/Charismatic background, I have seen the good, bad and ugly side, and some of the "spooky spiritual" stuff that happens in the lunatic fringe. I guess your church would be no different. From what I know of the Mormons I have met, and they have all been good people with a sincere faith, I have not heard of any "spooky spiritual" encounters like visible spirits of the dead appearing at baptisms for the dead. The Roman Catholics have something similar in that they will have a Mass for the dead. Paul speaks of those who baptise for the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:29 in relation to his discourse on the Resurrection. He says that it happens and does not seem to disapprove of it. It seems that people do it to give them a level of comfort in the same way that Roman Catholics believe that their loved ones go to Purgatory so they can be purged of their sins and perhaps make it to heaven after all. We don't really know what happens when people die and go out into eternity, except that Paul said of himself, "Absent from the body, present with the Lord." All the other stories, like Dante's Inferno and similar works are fiction. Jesus gave a clue about heaven where He said that there are many mansions, and that people don't get married there. There is another story, and I am not sure whether it is a true one or one of Jesus' parables where the rich man went to hell and Lazarus went into the bosom of Abraham. The Book of Revelation gives pictures of what eternity will be like, but it is full of symbolism, the keys of which have largely been lost over time, so people can make only educated guesses about it. But what we do know is that Christian believers will be worshiping before the throne of God and Jesus will be the final victor.

I would not be surprised if there were a lot of Mormon believers there as well, because all that is needed to be saved according to Peter in Acts 2 is that one believes that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead. I am assured that most Mormons believe that and although there are doctrines which may not be agreed to by what I would call the mainstream, they are doing the will of God in that Jesus said that the will of God is to believe on Him whom God has sent.
Cool.
I have heard of a movement within the LDS church called "Mormons for Christ" made up of believers who have accepted Christ as Saviour but have decided to stay in the Mormon Church so that they can help their fellow believers have their experience with God enhanced through a stronger faith in Christ.
All LDS folks have accepted Christ as their Savior.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Nothing in here is talking about speaking to the dead.
(Note: "Mormon Coffee" is a site which dispenses false information about LDS beliefs, so I don't blame you for you confusion. ).


You did not read down far enough in the OP, also looking at the faces of dead people is communication.

Here is what you overlooked.

"Source: Benson, Ezra Taft, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988. 602 – 604.

Perhaps I may be permitted to relate a circumstance with which I am acquainted in relation to Bishop Roskelley, of Smithfield, Cache Valley. On one occasion he was taken very sick – near to death’s door. While he lay in this condition, President Peter Maughan, who was dead, came to him and said: “Brother Roskelley, we held a council on the other side of the veil. I have had a great deal to do, and I have the privilege of coming here to appoint one man to come and help. I have had three names given to me in council, and you are one of them. I want to inquire into your circumstances.” The Bishop told him what he had to do, and they conversed together as one man would converse with another. President Maughan then said to him: “I think I will not call you. I think you are wanted here more than perhaps one of the others.” Bishop Roskelley got well from that hour."
 
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Daniel Marsh

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The Bible tells us why we can not speak to the dead,

Ecclesiastes 9:6b International Standard Version (ISV)

Never again will they(the dead from context) have a part in what happens on earth.

Here are some other things related to this topic I stumbled upon,

"
For example, in 1758 a man by the name of Emanuel Swedenborg wrote a book about his visions of the afterlife. Swedenborg insisted: "There are three heavens," described as "entirely distinct from each other." He called the highest heaven "the Celestial Kingdom," and stated that the inhabitants of the three heavens corresponded to the "sun, moon and stars."

By Joseph Smith's own statements, he was familiar with Swedenborg's writings. Smith told a convert by the name of Edward Hunter that "Emanuel Swedenborg had a view of the world to come, but for daily food he perished."

I was so fascinated by the connection that Quinn documented, that I bought a copy of Swedenborg's book myself from Amazon.com. It's called "Heaven and Its Wonders and Hell and was written way before Joseph Smith. Yet it describes the three Mormon degrees of glory quite well.
Not only does Quinn make a strong case that Smith knew all about Swedenborg's ideas, but he also shows that his book "Heaven and Hell and Its Wonders" was a book in Smith's hometown library since 1817. Quinn also writes that "Nine miles from Smith's farm, in 1826 the Canandaigua newspaper also advertised Swedenborg's book for sale. The bookstore offered Swedenborg's publications for as little as 37 cents."

If you ever want to know details about the Mormon afterlife, read Swedenborg's book. Smith liberally plagiarized from it to come up with his D&C "visions" of the celestial, telestial and terrestrial kingdoms. But Swedenborg's works are definitely the originals.
In fact, a faithful Mormon and scholar Craig Miller has also written on this subject in a paper titled "Did Swedenborg Influence Mormon Doctrine?." Miller lists 19 unique similarities between Swendenborg's fictional "Celestial Kingdom" and that of Joseph Smith.


...

Some items on his list of Swedenborg's ideas:

1 Three levels of heaven
2 Three heavens in the CK
3 Priesthood robes are worn in heavenly marriage ceremonies
4 You must be married in heaven to inherit the highest heaven
5.The world of spirits is a place of preparation for either heaven or perdition
6 There are angles who communicate between heavens
7 The 3 kingdoms are like sun, moon, stars
8.The church that Christ established has passed from the Earth

Sound familiar?

"
Ran across an interesting quote about Swedenborg and Joseph Smith Using His Writings | Recovery from Mormonism
 
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