Speaking with Authority.

Carl Emerson

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Hello Folks.

Since being on the forum one is confronted by a range of opinions on even the most basic issues.

One must conclude then that ofttimes the majority of offerings are not made with the authority of Christ or there would be more agreement.

So can we discuss what the bible says about what gives us the authority to speak.

I notice that when Paul presented himself to the disciples in Jerusalem they were initially quite afraid, knowing his reputation for persecuting believers. However it was his testimony of what God was doing through him that played a large part in convincing them that he was 'kosher' and to be listened too.

It wasn't years in seminary or who he sat under, or his knowledge of the scripture, (the Pharisees had that) or the denomination he came from :)

It was more likely the fruit of the spirit, evidencing the Love of Jesus, his encounter with Jesus on the road and the events that followed.Doubtless he would have been quoting scripture, but this in it's self is not evidence of anything Godly as we know from the temptation of Jesus.

On the disciples side it would have been the gifts of discernment operating in an atmosphere of unity. It is highly likely that they first wondered if he was an antichrist.

So taking all this into account how should we measure what offerings here are from Him???
 

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Hello Folks.

Since being on the forum one is confronted by a range of opinions on even the most basic issues.

One must conclude then that ofttimes the majority of offerings are not made with the authority of Christ or there would be more agreement.

So can we discuss what the bible says about what gives us the authority to speak.

I notice that when Paul presented himself to the disciples in Jerusalem they were initially quite afraid, knowing his reputation for persecuting believers. However it was his testimony of what God was doing through him that played a large part in convincing them that he was 'kosher' and to be listened too.

It wasn't years in seminary or who he sat under, or his knowledge of the scripture, (the Pharisees had that) or the denomination he came from :)

It was more likely the fruit of the spirit, evidencing the Love of Jesus, his encounter with Jesus on the road and the events that followed.Doubtless he would have been quoting scripture, but this in it's self is not evidence of anything Godly as we know from the temptation of Jesus.

On the disciples side it would have been the gifts of discernment operating in an atmosphere of unity. It is highly likely that they first wondered if he was an antichrist.

So taking all this into account how should we measure what offerings here are from Him???
Above all, the Bible is a spiritual book intended for spiritually alive people, I.E. those who are born again. Spiritual things are spiritually understood. God did not give us "systematic theology" that is intellectually satisfying. He gave us the Holy Spirit to lead us into the Truth. Lord Jesus is the Truth.
Anyone can be deceived at any time. The one in most danger is the one who imagines that he is beyond deception.
Every Christian has authority to speak. We all have the same Spirit and the same Bible as well as the same Saviour and Lord. How faithful we are to what God is saying depends on how closely we are walking with the Lord and our spiritual knowledge. Some wrong things I said decades ago I genuinely believed at the time. The speaker needs to be right but we also have to judge correctly.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Hello Folks.

Since being on the forum one is confronted by a range of opinions on even the most basic issues.

One must conclude then that ofttimes the majority of offerings are not made with the authority of Christ or there would be more agreement.

So can we discuss what the bible says about what gives us the authority to speak.

I notice that when Paul presented himself to the disciples in Jerusalem they were initially quite afraid, knowing his reputation for persecuting believers. However it was his testimony of what God was doing through him that played a large part in convincing them that he was 'kosher' and to be listened too.

It wasn't years in seminary or who he sat under, or his knowledge of the scripture, (the Pharisees had that) or the denomination he came from :)

It was more likely the fruit of the spirit, evidencing the Love of Jesus, his encounter with Jesus on the road and the events that followed.Doubtless he would have been quoting scripture, but this in it's self is not evidence of anything Godly as we know from the temptation of Jesus.

On the disciples side it would have been the gifts of discernment operating in an atmosphere of unity. It is highly likely that they first wondered if he was an antichrist.

So taking all this into account how should we measure what offerings here are from Him???
After Paul left Damascus, he went into Arabia and spent many years there and then went back to Tarsus. After that Barnabas went and collected Paul and brought him back to Antioch, where he and others waited on God in fellowship and prayer. It was there that the Holy Spirit said, "Separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the ministry I have for them." That was the first indication that Paul and Barnabas worked under the authority of the Holy Spirit to perform their ministry.

Paul did not promote himself. He waited many years until the Holy Spirit commissioned him for ministry. During those many years in seclusion, he learned from the Holy Spirit the further revelation that the Lord had for him to minister to the Gentiles. He expressed this when he said that he was not appointed an Apostle through man, and his revelation of the New Covenant did not come through the teaching of men, but directly from the Lord Himself.

His authority to have his writing become Holy Scripture is because he was appointed as an Apostle of Christ with a unique and specific calling, and to teach and write under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This means that Paul's letters is actually Jesus speaking through him. This was the same with Peter, John, Jude and the Apostle to the Hebrews. This is in keeping with Jesus saying that He had more to teach them which they could not receive (until the Holy Spirit arrived in the church).

No other person since can claim such direct revelation from the Holy Spirit. Those who claim to have special revelation that none of the Apostles of Christ write in their epistles, are false teachers, teaching out of their own minds and opinions and not from the Spirit of God.
 
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Russ Campbell

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Matthew 15:1-9
GOD’S TRUTH ABOVE MEN’S TEACHING
The legal washing of hands before eating was especially sacred in the eyes of the Pharisees. “He who does not wash His hands before eating,” says the Talmud, “is as bad as a murderer.” Jesus had no sympathy with a system that reduced religion to a slavery to outward forms. His new kingdom was in the heart, in loving sonship to God, and in faith. All outward observances had value only as expressions of the inner spirit. He waived aside their deadly pedantry and told His hearers to care above everything for the cleanliness of the heart.
He did more; He accused the Pharisees of putting their commandments on a level with the divine requirements, and so rendering the whole of Israel’s worship vain. The divine authority for what is commanded is greatly weakened when it is mixed up with the purely human. A multitude of saints’ days weakens the claims of the Lord’s day. Remember that no gift to God’s service is acceptable if you neglect the claims of those who are related to you by natural ties. Morality in God’s eyes stands far above ritual.
 
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Russ Campbell

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Romans 3:1-8
GOD FAITHFUL THOUGH MEN BE FAITHLESS
The Jewish people had a great treasure entrusted to them for the benefit of the whole world. This position as stewards for mankind conferred upon them very special privileges, but also exposed them to searching discipline, if they should prove faithless. Some of these advantages are enumerated in Rom_9:4-5. But our failures cannot cancel God’s faithfulness to His covenant promises, 2Ti_2:13. We may always reckon confidently upon His steadfastness to His engagements, whether to the individual or to the nation. It is wonderful, Rom_3:5, how human sin has been a foil to God’s glory, eliciting qualities in His love which otherwise had been unknown; but this cannot excuse our sinfulness.
If this excuse were admitted, God would clearly have been unjust in punishing sin as He has done; and if that line of argument were maintained, it would be right to do evil, if good were always the outcome. Such an admission would open the door to all kinds of abomination, and the mere suggestion of such a conclusion to this argument ought to silence the objector and cover him with shame.
 
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Carl Emerson

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No other person since can claim such direct revelation from the Holy Spirit. Those who claim to have special revelation that none of the Apostles of Christ write in their epistles, are false teachers, teaching out of their own minds and opinions and not from the Spirit of God.

If you are referring to the like of Joseph Smith, then yes of course.

What I am hearing however is that many folks on the forum believe that The Holy Spirit within us is silent unless we are actually reading scripture.

Others claim that there is nothing else to know for sure except that which is written.

Others believe He can speak within, for example confirming His will by His peace.

However I am keen to hear about what conditions have to be met before we can presume to speak with authority.

Probably more than 50% of the opinions here are not from God's heart, so how can we help folks to assess if they are contributing to truth or not.

Otherwise much the dialogue here is relative and potentially deceptive...

Yet the scripture tells is that the very elect will not be deceived because that it is not possible.

I have my thoughts as to why this is but it would be great to hear from others.
 
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If you are referring to the like of Joseph Smith, then yes of course.

What I am hearing however is that many folks on the forum believe that The Holy Spirit within us is silent unless we are actually reading scripture.

Others claim that there is nothing else to know for sure except that which is written.

Others believe He can speak within, for example confirming His will by His peace.

However I am keen to hear about what conditions have to be met before we can presume to speak with authority.

Probably more than 50% of the opinions here are not from God's heart, so how can we help folks to assess if they are contributing to truth or not.

Otherwise much the dialogue here is relative and potentially deceptive...

Yet the scripture tells is that the very elect will not be deceived because that it is not possible.

I have my thoughts as to why this is but it would be great to hear from others.
There was a progression of revelation:
God gave revelation to Moses - hence the first five books of the Bible.
The historical books are the history of Israel and shows how God worked with people and dealt with those who rejected Him, and blessed those who were faithful to Him.
Psalms is the Holy Spirit praying to God and interceding through the writing of the Psalmists.
Proverbs is the every day wisdom that is the forerunner of the Word of Wisdom.
The prophets are the books that contain the direct revelation given to the Old Testament prophets.
John the Baptiser was the last Old Testament prophet who received direct revelation from God.
The Old Testament office of prophet to the nation ceased at the death of John the Baptiser.
No one else received revelation while Jesus was present in the world, because He was the living revelation of God.
When the Holy Spirit came to the church at Pentecost, the Apostles of Christ took over the role of receiving direct revelation from God. That is why their letters were Holy Scripture because it was from the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Once they completed their writing, direct revelation ceased, and the canon of Scripture closed.

Anyone claiming direct revelation from God that has not already been revealed in Scripture is false, because he is purporting to receive new Scripture - because when God speaks revelation it is Scripture. So all revelation from God has to be consistent with the revelation already received. God is no longer revealing new Scripture. The Bible is the total and complete revelation from God. He has said directly everything He is going to say.

Yet we have those who are claiming direct new revelation from God that is foreign to what has already been written in Scripture. Jesus and Paul warned against such "prophets" and false teachers, and warned believers not to listen to them at all.
 
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Dave-W

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You mean we should not expect good teaching from Gentiles?
I am not saying that. My favorite bible teacher was a gentile.

What I am saying is that God has given His chosen people the true authority in carrying the Word. But there is still a long way to go before they are truly restored into that place.
 
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Carl Emerson

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There was a progression of revelation:
God gave revelation to Moses - hence the first five books of the Bible.
The historical books are the history of Israel and shows how God worked with people and dealt with those who rejected Him, and blessed those who were faithful to Him.
Psalms is the Holy Spirit praying to God and interceding through the writing of the Psalmists.
Proverbs is the every day wisdom that is the forerunner of the Word of Wisdom.
The prophets are the books that contain the direct revelation given to the Old Testament prophets.
John the Baptiser was the last Old Testament prophet who received direct revelation from God.
The Old Testament office of prophet to the nation ceased at the death of John the Baptiser.
No one else received revelation while Jesus was present in the world, because He was the living revelation of God.
When the Holy Spirit came to the church at Pentecost, the Apostles of Christ took over the role of receiving direct revelation from God. That is why their letters were Holy Scripture because it was from the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Once they completed their writing, direct revelation ceased, and the canon of Scripture closed.

Anyone claiming direct revelation from God that has not already been revealed in Scripture is false, because he is purporting to receive new Scripture - because when God speaks revelation it is Scripture. So all revelation from God has to be consistent with the revelation already received. God is no longer revealing new Scripture. The Bible is the total and complete revelation from God. He has said directly everything He is going to say.

Yet we have those who are claiming direct new revelation from God that is foreign to what has already been written in Scripture. Jesus and Paul warned against such "prophets" and false teachers, and warned believers not to listen to them at all.

Yes... this is a pretty good summary to anchor the place of the scripture we have.

However the issue is, what is the function of the Holy Spirit within born again believers today.

Some say He is silent unless we are actually reading scripture.

Some say He guides believers today confirming their personal journey of service with His peace within.

Some say no one since the Apostles can speak with authority on anything unless they are quoting scripture in context.

Some say that quoting the scripture in context without the Holy Spirit does not carry the authority of Christ.

Some say revelation is progressive and although the scripture is sealed and complete, new insights are given through revelation that enhance our understanding particularly of His perspective on contemporary issues.

Some say the Holy Spirit is just convicting the world of sin righteousness and judgement and apart from that, our christian lives are simply a witness of what once was. So some of our churches are like museums, places of remembrance.

I have been bagged for claiming that He speaks to me in various ways and in fact appeared to me when I was a child. Being guided by God has been a normal part of my life for years. Before coming on CF I thought this was normal for a seriously committed believer to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

It's not that I am not anchored in the scripture having been reading for nearly 70 years and having attended formal study of scripture both in university and Bible school.

Frankly my faith life is alight with the living Christ and He works through and with me but folks here are adamant that this is illusion or worse because folks have the bible now and this Holy Spirit stuff ended either when the apostles died or the Scripture was canonised. I note that in the Nicene Creed in 325 the Church Fathers of the day considered that the church was still apostolic. This would mean that the life experiences and gifts of the long dead apostles was normative among believers - this would include His indwelling presence and authority.

So there it is. At this stage I will continue to join the fray on CF and encourage others to walk the walk of faith and love that I have enjoyed, more than life, for the last 45 or so years.
 
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Yes... this is a pretty good summary to anchor the place of the scripture we have.

However the issue is, what is the function of the Holy Spirit within born again believers today.

Some say He is silent unless we are actually reading scripture.

Some say He guides believers today confirming their personal journey of service with His peace within.

Some say no one since the Apostles can speak with authority on anything unless they are quoting scripture in context.

Some say that quoting the scripture in context without the Holy Spirit does not carry the authority of Christ.

Some say revelation is progressive and although the scripture is sealed and complete, new insights are given through revelation that enhance our understanding particularly of His perspective on contemporary issues.

Some say the Holy Spirit is just convicting the world of sin righteousness and judgement and apart from that, our christian lives are simply a witness of what once was. So some of our churches are like museums, places of remembrance.

I have been bagged for claiming that He speaks to me in various ways and in fact appeared to me when I was a child. Being guided by God has been a normal part of my life for years. Before coming on CF I thought this was normal for a seriously committed believer to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

It's not that I am not anchored in the scripture having been reading for nearly 70 years and having attended formal study of scripture both in university and Bible school.

Frankly my faith life is alight with the living Christ and He works through and with me but folks here are adamant that this is illusion or worse because folks have the bible now and this Holy Spirit stuff ended either when the apostles died or the Scripture was canonised. I note that in the Nicene Creed in 325 the Church Fathers of the day considered that the church was still apostolic. This would mean that the life experiences and gifts of the long dead apostles was normative among believers - this would include His indwelling presence and authority.

So there it is. At this stage I will continue to join the fray on CF and encourage others to walk the walk of faith and love that I have enjoyed, more than life, for the last 45 or so years.
I firmly believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to us, and He speaks more often than we realise. This is in keeping with Jesus saying that the anointing that we have within us will teach us all things so that we won't need any man to teach us. I think that what Jesus meant here was that we don't need to be taught the wisdom of man to teach us the things of God, because the Holy Spirit within us will enable us to discern between what is true or false.

When I say that the Holy Spirit will speak to us only what has already been spoken in the Scriptures, I am not saying that it always has to through reading the Bible, although He can and will speak that way. But as we become familiar with the Scriptures we learn the ways of God through all the threads of teaching, history, prophecy, and examples we see in them. We learn and become familiar with the nature and character of God, especially through the example of Jesus when He was here "in the flesh".

We also see how the Holy Spirit worked with the early church, and in the ministry of Paul, and so we see the effects of the Holy Spirit's power upon believers, and non-believers. We see what happens when sinners become convicted of their sin and cry out to God, "What shall we do?"

We also see that the Holy Spirit never manipulates, controls, or intimidates, and never causes a believer to be condemned, depressed or confused. He is never unkind, harsh, bullying, dictatorial, micro-managing, impatient, unfaithful, ill-mannered or indecent in the way He speaks and deals with us. And He is totally faithful to what God has already communicated to us in the Scriptures.

His mission is to get sinners out of hell and into the kingdom of God. That is His primary mission, and His top priority. The whole point of working in us to improve our sanctification and holiness is to show the world through us how a true believer should conduct himself and be an example and a testimony to the saving work of Jesus Christ. It is not to present a showcase of perfect Christians, but to equip believers so that they can direct sinners to the narrow gate of Christ and not do anything that would put sinners off from going there.

So, if a person says they are hearing from the Holy Spirit and we get an impression that what they are saying and doing doesn't seem to ring true about how Jesus would say or do it, then we should doubt it. But in order to know the difference between what is true or false, we really do need to know the Bible, and be men and women of prayer, because if we don't, how are we going to be able to discern when someone comes up with a revelation whether it is right or not?

For example: A person says that the Holy Spirit has given them a gift of healing, and no one gets healed. Can we say that he is deceived into thinking he has something which he doesn't have? I think so, because the Holy Spirit doesn't lie. If He says that He has given someone the gift of healing, then people get healed every time. If they don't, then the Holy Spirit has lied, or the person has lied when he said that the Holy Spirit gave him the gift.

Another example is when a person prophesies to another that they will be prosperous and famous, and the Scriptures show that God has never promised anything like that to anyone and that prosperity and fame is part of the world and not part of walking in the Spirit, then we can confidently say that the prophecy is false because it is not consistent with how God deals with people.
 
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charsan

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I know people will get mad at me and try to argue with me because I understand this is an evangelical forum and people who like me are Traditional Christians are barely tolerated and know right now after this I am unsubscribing from this thread so I will not be answering. Unlike evangelicals I do not believe any person has authority but that God gave the Church all authority
 
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I know people will get mad at me and try to argue with me because I understand this is an evangelical forum and people who like me are Traditional Christians are barely tolerated and know right now after this I am unsubscribing from this thread so I will not be answering. Unlike evangelicals I do not believe any person has authority but that God gave the Church all authority
My only answer to this is: "Which one?"
 
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Carl Emerson

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For example: A person says that the Holy Spirit has given them a gift of healing, and no one gets healed. Can we say that he is deceived into thinking he has something which he doesn't have? I think so, because the Holy Spirit doesn't lie. If He says that He has given someone the gift of healing, then people get healed every time. If they don't, then the Holy Spirit has lied, or the person has lied when he said that the Holy Spirit gave him the gift.

Off topic a bit, but one can have a gift and not be wise with it, become overconfident or presumptuous in its operation - but still have a gift nevertheless...

Another example is when a person prophesies to another that they will be prosperous and famous, and the Scriptures show that God has never promised anything like that to anyone and that prosperity and fame is part of the world and not part of walking in the Spirit, then we can confidently say that the prophecy is false because it is not consistent with how God deals with people.

Jesus promised in Luke 18

28 Peter said, “Behold, we have left our own homes and followed You.” 29 And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.”

So His concern that they would be provided for materialy was definitely there... and even better than they had before...

As for Fame, there is no doubt that the disciples got a ton of that, the key is that they didn't seek it.

However if you are referring to the abuses that can come with the 'christian superstar culture' then I entirely agree... The trick is not to tar all with the same brush and unwittingly smear folk that the Lord has genuinely raised up.
 
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Off topic a bit, but one can have a gift and not be wise with it, become overconfident or presumptuous in its operation - but still have a gift nevertheless...



Jesus promised in Luke 18

28 Peter said, “Behold, we have left our own homes and followed You.” 29 And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.”

So His concern that they would be provided for materialy was definitely there... and even better than they had before...

As for Fame, there is no doubt that the disciples got a ton of that, the key is that they didn't seek it.

However if you are referring to the abuses that can come with the 'christian superstar culture' then I entirely agree... The trick is not to tar all with the same brush and unwittingly smear folk that the Lord has genuinely raised up.
I think that both my posts have to do with speaking with authority. A person with a gift of healing can speak the word with authority and the person will be healed. A person without the gift may try to speak with authority, and fail, because he is speaking out of his own authority and not the Holy Spirit.

It is the same with the prophetic word. When the Holy Spirit speaks prophetically through the person then it carries His authority which has the effect of encouragement, comfort and exhortation. But a person prophesying out of his own head without the Holy Spirit is speaking with his own authority, and this can be manipulative seeking an effect that he wants and not what the Holy Spirit would intend.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Yes, I get your point. I have found also that healing can come with no 'word of authority'.
Further it depends on if the word is against the infirmity or the proclamation of healing. Lastly healing can be genuinely set into motion but take time. I prefer to consider an instant healing a miracle.

On your second point yes of course, mind you I am not sure that the word from Agabus to Paul fits the restriction you suggest, but that hinges of what your definition of exhortation is.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Hello Folks.

Since being on the forum one is confronted by a range of opinions on even the most basic issues.

One must conclude then that ofttimes the majority of offerings are not made with the authority of Christ or there would be more agreement.

So can we discuss what the bible says about what gives us the authority to speak.

I notice that when Paul presented himself to the disciples in Jerusalem they were initially quite afraid, knowing his reputation for persecuting believers. However it was his testimony of what God was doing through him that played a large part in convincing them that he was 'kosher' and to be listened too.

It wasn't years in seminary or who he sat under, or his knowledge of the scripture, (the Pharisees had that) or the denomination he came from :)

It was more likely the fruit of the spirit, evidencing the Love of Jesus, his encounter with Jesus on the road and the events that followed.Doubtless he would have been quoting scripture, but this in it's self is not evidence of anything Godly as we know from the temptation of Jesus.

On the disciples side it would have been the gifts of discernment operating in an atmosphere of unity. It is highly likely that they first wondered if he was an antichrist.

So taking all this into account how should we measure what offerings here are from Him???

Our Authority comes from Jesus.
What allows to speak as such is knowledge of Scriptures, History, use of primary sources like the Church Fathers and knowledge to the Cultures of the Bible. What throws us off center is reading the bible with our theological bias.
 
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