Speaking Out Against Sin

[Moral Orel]

Why do so many Christians tell other people outside of the Christian faith that they're sinning?

This isn't a complaint about being offended by being told I'm a sinner. It's a genuine curiosity about the efficacy of informing people of an opinion that they have no reason to agree with. It seems to me to be more persuasive to convince people Christianity is true before you start laying all the rules on them. If you're just spelling out the rules without making an attempt to show Christianity is true, what is being accomplished?

So many Christians point to the Bible stating that they'll be persecuted because of their faith as if it is a prophecy being fulfilled when people snap back. But that just seems like a reasonable prediction about how folk are going to respond to this behavior prescribed by the good book. So what's the point?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Why do so many Christians tell other people outside of the Christian faith that they're sinning?

This isn't a complaint about being offended by being told I'm a sinner. It's a genuine curiosity about the efficacy of informing people of an opinion that they have no reason to agree with. It seems to me to be more persuasive to convince people Christianity is true before you start laying all the rules on them. If you're just spelling out the rules without making an attempt to show Christianity is true, what is being accomplished?

So many Christians point to the Bible stating that they'll be persecuted because of their faith as if it is a prophecy being fulfilled when people snap back. But that just seems like a reasonable prediction about how folk are going to respond to this behavior prescribed by the good book. So what's the point?

Pardon me, Nick, but while I think your question is a legitimate one, weren't you formerly a Christian at one point in the past? If so, then I'm wondering 'why' you'd be asking since you'd likely already have some knowledge about this issue.

 

[Moral Orel]

Pardon me, Nick, but while I think your question is a legitimate one, weren't you formerly a Christian at one point in the past? If so, then I'm wondering 'why' you'd be asking since you'd likely already have some knowledge about this issue.

I stopped being a practicing Christian in my late teens. I'm sure my understanding about things back then was probably a lot less than robust between being young, immature, impressionable, and being transferred from denomination after denomination like an Army brat. I'm not going to put much stock in what I thought I knew then; you shouldn't either.

As a side note, don't take it the wrong way that I'm going to ignore the posts you made in that other thread. I'd like to move the discussion about that here if you want to continue it. It really isn't pertinent to the discussion over there and I felt you recognized that and tried to get things back on track by re-questioning my stance on the events in the OP. Feel free to pose them again in this thread if you think those questions you posed are where you'd like to start. If you'd like to discuss it at all.

 

[JohnClay]

Why do so many Christians tell other people outside of the Christian faith that they're sinning?...

I'm not a Christian but I think Ray Comfort does this in a pretty successful way:

He tells people including atheists that they are sinners and deserve hell, etc. According to the videos he posts, he is quite successful in the script about the ten commandments he uses a lot:

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I stopped being a practicing Christian in my late teens. I'm sure my understanding about things back then was probably a lot less than robust between being young, immature, impressionable, and being transferred from denomination after denomination like an Army brat. I'm not going to put much stock in what I thought I knew then; you shouldn't either.

...and here I thought you were a former Christian who had been 'advanced' in the faith and then walked away from it all. Well, alright then, I won't put much stock in what you may have or may have not learned about Christianity as a youngster, just like I realize I didn't get much in the way of any formal religious education (...nearly none, really) while I was young, either. So, I've burned the stock that I've held in both of our investment ventures.

As a side note, don't take it the wrong way that I'm going to ignore the posts you made in that other thread. I'd like to move the discussion about that here if you want to continue it. It really isn't pertinent to the discussion over there and I felt you recognized that and tried to get things back on track by re-questioning my stance on the events in the OP. Feel free to pose them again in this thread if you think those questions you posed are where you'd like to start. If you'd like to discuss it at all.

No, that's fine. Everyone is free to come and go as they please around here....

So, your question: why do Christians bother to preach about sin to a world that doesn't care?

I suppose it's because the Biblical writers infer that we should do so......at least until we're told to permanently take a hike by our interlocutors, at which point in time, we are to supposedly just shake some dust off of our sandals (or our tennis shoes, I suppose) and move on.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Why do so many Christians tell other people outside of the Christian faith that they're sinning?

This isn't a complaint about being offended by being told I'm a sinner. It's a genuine curiosity about the efficacy of informing people of an opinion that they have no reason to agree with. It seems to me to be more persuasive to convince people Christianity is true before you start laying all the rules on them. If you're just spelling out the rules without making an attempt to show Christianity is true, what is being accomplished?

So many Christians point to the Bible stating that they'll be persecuted because of their faith as if it is a prophecy being fulfilled when people snap back. But that just seems like a reasonable prediction about how folk are going to respond to this behavior prescribed by the good book. So what's the point?

You do realize that we are all sinners? Not just the people outside of the faith.

 

[bcbsr]

Why do so many Christians tell other people outside of the Christian faith that they're sinning?

This isn't a complaint about being offended by being told I'm a sinner. It's a genuine curiosity about the efficacy of informing people of an opinion that they have no reason to agree with. It seems to me to be more persuasive to convince people Christianity is true before you start laying all the rules on them. If you're just spelling out the rules without making an attempt to show Christianity is true, what is being accomplished?

So many Christians point to the Bible stating that they'll be persecuted because of their faith as if it is a prophecy being fulfilled when people snap back. But that just seems like a reasonable prediction about how folk are going to respond to this behavior prescribed by the good book. So what's the point?

John 7:7 "The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil." (Jesus Christ)

 

[Moral Orel]

I suppose it's because the Biblical writers infer that we should do so......at least until we're told to permanently take a hike by our interlocutors, at which point in time, we are to supposedly just shake some dust off of our sandals (or our tennis shoes, I suppose) and move on.

So you do it because you feel the Bible tells you that you should. What does it accomplish?

 

[Moral Orel]

You do realize that we are all sinners? Not just the people outside of the faith.

Of course. And it makes sense for people to act as a sort of self-regulating agency inside of a religion. Helping people remember that they're doing things that you all have agreed you shouldn't, or even just pointing out that other people have taken notice, is a good way to help folks stop doing things they believe they shouldn't.

But for those outside the religion, what effect will it have? What is accomplished?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So you do it because you feel the Bible tells you that you should. What does it accomplish?

I wouldn't know since there's two things I can't do, Nick: 1) Read other people's minds, and 2) know exactly what God is going to do in the mind and heart of any one person whom I talk to. And since Biblical Epistemology is what it is, I firmly expect to have something akin to just one Mar's Hill experience after another, and since I'm nobody special and definitely no Apostle or Prophet, I'm confident that the actual number of dents which I'll put into the world for the sake of Christ will, when analyzed on the whole, appear to be minimal.

 

[Moral Orel]

I wouldn't know since there's two things I can't do, Nick: 1) Read other people's minds, and 2) know exactly what God is going to do in the mind and heart of any one person whom I talk to. And since Biblical Epistemology is what it is, I firmly expect to have something akin to just one Mar's Hill experience after another, and since I'm nobody special and definitely no Apostle or Prophet, I'm confident that the actual number of dents which I'll put into the world for the sake of Christ will, when analyzed on the whole, appear to be minimal.

Okay, are you trying to accomplish anything other than speaking your mind because you feel you're instructed to?

And what's this notion of what God is doing in minds and hearts? Am I right in concluding from what you've said in other posts that you don't feel it's your job to convince people Christianity is real, but that you leave that up to God?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Of course. And it makes sense for people to act as a sort of self-regulating agency inside of a religion. Helping people remember that they're doing things that you all have agreed you shouldn't, or even just pointing out that other people have taken notice, is a good way to help folks stop doing things they believe they shouldn't.

But for those outside the religion, what effect will it have? What is accomplished?

I imagine it is all in the context. Its important to note that sometimes sin is what stands in the way of someone finding Jesus in the first place. Some people feel that they are too sinful to be forgiven for instance. So in that context it is very important for those types of people to know that we are all sinners and that they can be forgiven too. Another point is if someone wants to continue to sin, it makes them not want to have God's judgement over them, as if somehow it won't matter in the end or that they might be able to be saved before its too late but this is when its important to stress that God's judgement comes. Does that help?

 

[Moral Orel]

I imagine it is all in the context. Its important to note that sometimes sin is what stands in the way of someone finding Jesus in the first place. Some people feel that they are too sinful to be forgiven for instance. So in that context it is very important for those types of people to know that we are all sinners and that they can be forgiven too. Another point is if someone wants to continue to sin, it makes them not want to have God's judgement over them, as if somehow it won't matter in the end or that they might be able to be saved before its too late but this is when its important to stress that God's judgement comes. Does that help?

Not really. In both instances there the people you speak of sound like they already believe what they're doing is wrong. In the former you'd be telling them that forgiveness is real, and in the latter you'd be telling them that judgement is real.

What I'm talking about is when you tell someone that what they're doing is sinful when they don't see anything wrong with it at all. Particularly when there isn't anything wrong with it unless Christianity is true.

 

[Silmarien]

If you want to see someone really speak out against sin, you need to take a look at a radical leftist Augustinian go after basically everything that breathes, Christian and non-Christian alike: Why Sin is Good – By Ed Simon

The rest of the Christian world doesn't like us very much, lol.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Okay, are you trying to accomplish anything other than speaking your mind because you feel you're instructed to?

Of course I have other goals. Even on a personal level, I enjoy a having just a chat about ethical situations with other people (just for the sake of the philosophical deliberation involved in it all). If I can gain a friend in the process of chatting somewhere along the way, so much the better, but friendship in a Christian context has its limits.

Furthermore, it would be great if, in the process, other people would give their lives to Christ, but being the realist that I am, and being that I don't think many non-Christian people will just automatically begin lining up to hear Bible related talk, I don't hold out a lot of hope that my personal goals will really be realized to their fullest.

And what's this notion of what God is doing in minds and hearts? Am I right in concluding from what you've said in other posts that you don't feel it's your job to convince people Christianity is real, but that you leave that up to God?

Right. As I mentioned in that other thread, it's not my job to do the convincing; that job belongs ultimately to God. But, it is my responsibility to "hold the line" somewhere as far as biblical concepts are concerned and not capitulate to the global ethical trends that the world in its wisdom would like everyone to accommodate themselves to.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Not really. In both instances there the people you speak of sound like they already believe what they're doing is wrong. In the former you'd be telling them that forgiveness is real, and in the latter you'd be telling them that judgement is real.

What I'm talking about is when you tell someone that what they're doing is sinful when they don't see anything wrong with it at all. Particularly when there isn't anything wrong with it unless Christianity is true.

It probably slides off like water off a duck's back. So, probably not a big problem.

 

[Moral Orel]

It probably slides off like water off a duck's back. So, probably not a big problem.

I'm not sure what you mean. Of course us sinners aren't going to change our behavior just because a Christian told us they believe it's wrong. The question is why do you tell us you believe it's wrong despite this?

 

[Moral Orel]

Of course I have other goals. Even on a personal level, I enjoy a having just a chat about ethical situations with other people (just for the sake of the philosophical deliberation involved in it all). If I can gain a friend in the process of chatting somewhere along the way, so much the better, but friendship in a Christian context has its limits.

How much of a chat about ethics could there really be in the context of the situation we've been discussing? We're still chatting, sure, but we arrived at a stalemate on the ethical considerations after a couple of posts. Surely there are better ice breakers than those that can easily come off as judgey. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that starting a conversation like that would put off more receptive people and attract more confrontational people (such as myself).

Furthermore, it would be great if, in the process, other people would give their lives to Christ, but being the realist that I am, and being that I don't think many non-Christian people will just automatically begin lining up to hear Bible related talk, I don't hold out a lot of hope that my personal goals will really be realized to their fullest.

Do you think that opening with "Hey, you know that thing you love to do? It's immoral." is an effective method of opening people up to the Bible? Feeling like that's the moral thing to do seems counterproductive to me if getting people interested in the Bible is a goal at all.

Right. As I mentioned in that other thread, it's not my job to do the convincing; that job belongs ultimately to God. But, it is my responsibility to "hold the line" somewhere as far as biblical concepts are concerned and not capitulate to the global ethical trends that the world in its wisdom would like everyone to accommodate themselves to.

I'm not sure I follow this part well enough. Can you be any more specific? What do you mean by "hold the line"? In what ways does the world want you to "accommodate" that you refuse to?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

How much of a chat about ethics could there really be in the context of the situation we've been discussing?

Quite a bit, really, depending upon which view of Ethics you take, Nick! And I've chosen to take--more or less--"the" Christian view! Of course, I don't expect the world to applaud that I've done so.....................why? Because the Bible tells me so.

We're still chatting, sure, but we arrived at a stalemate on the ethical considerations after a couple of posts. Surely there are better ice breakers than those that can easily come off as judgey. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that starting a conversation like that would put off more receptive people and attract more confrontational people (such as myself).

Ice-breakers? From what I can tell, a large chunk of the people interacting here are already aware of my existence and of my eccentric Christian views on things, so I think we're well past the insinuation that any one particular new thread I might make will truly count as an "ice-breaker."

Do you think that opening with "Hey, you know that thing you love to do? It's immoral." is an effective method of opening people up to the Bible? Feeling like that's the moral thing to do seems counterproductive to me if getting people interested in the Bible is a goal at all.

I don't know. Do you think telling people to "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is near!" as one of the first things to drop from a person's lips is apropos?

I'm not sure I follow this part well enough. Can you be any more specific? What do you mean by "hold the line"?

It simply means to no longer allow the World, in its glory and in all of its various political and social Agendas, to inculcate me with various values of a particular non-biblical nature and nuance or to gets its little claws into my heart and mind. But don't worry! When I say that I must "hold the line," I'm not making a political statement. No, I leave that kind of thing to some of the Red-Neck, Gun-toting Republicans or to the Dire-Hard, Communistically inclined Leftists who meander in and out of the Democratic party. No, I'm just passively (but still passionately) Purple in my politics. Besides, remember what Jesus told Pontius Pilate?

In what ways does the world want you to "accommodate" that you refuse to?

Have you ever heard of the term, "the Mark of the Beast"? I know, I know. I should be mindful that there's a learning curve involved here since so many people [especially those living in the West] have just 'never' heard of the term.

 

[devolved]

Why do so many Christians tell other people outside of the Christian faith that they're sinning?

This isn't a complaint about being offended by being told I'm a sinner. It's a genuine curiosity about the efficacy of informing people of an opinion that they have no reason to agree with. It seems to me to be more persuasive to convince people Christianity is true before you start laying all the rules on them. If you're just spelling out the rules without making an attempt to show Christianity is true, what is being accomplished?

The concept of sin doesn't need to be rooted in some religious context for it to be viable. For example, it could just as easily transfer to Stoics' "not living up to Arete", which is rather broad in its definition. For example, practicing the virtue of self-control is multi-dimensional activity that breaks down into many different specifics.

Likewise, we ascribe to various umbrellas of organizational behavioral preferences, be it national, corporate, religious, cultural, or familiar. All of these have their internal concept of "sins", and they will generally let you know if you cross certain lines.

There are always group of gung-ho individuals in any given organization that will go out of the way to hint or be direct about their preferences.

As such, Christianity isn't unique. Of course it's odd when someone begins to share with you out of the blue their own behavioral preferences for you, but that's what Christianity is in its existential form:

1) Idealized behavior
2) Communication of that idealized behavior

It's not different than someone walking over to you and putting you in your place if you begin screaming out loud some racial slurs in this day and age. They don't have to take you through a sociology class to begin accusing you of sin of racism.

For Christianity as a subversive subculture, pointing to the problem of sin is a given.

So many Christians point to the Bible stating that they'll be persecuted because of their faith as if it is a prophecy being fulfilled when people snap back. But that just seems like a reasonable prediction about how folk are going to respond to this behavior prescribed by the good book. So what's the point?

It actually works both ways:

https://doctorlinda.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/fundies_and_anti_theists_by_jedi_one-d65mkb1.png