Speaking in tongues -- revisited -- your thoughts?

[Saint Steven]

What do those on the anti-tongues side hope to gain? What difference does it make to them whether we speak in tongues, prophesy, pray for the sick and worship God in our own way? We have supported our stance with scripture and history. Why continue to fight us? What's to gain? Anything of value to offer? Not that I can see.

Their goal seems to be to snuff out the last remnants of life from the church. And replace it with dead orthodoxy. If water baptism has not expired, then neither has Holy Spirit baptism.

Luke 3:16
John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

 

[Dave L]

Answer the question fairly has knowledge passed away? not the word of knowledge, knowledge.

"For now we know in part then we shall understand perfectly..."

Do you now understand perfectly? or do you still see as through a glass darkly?

What you learn reading a cook book is not the spiritual gift of Knowledge. It was supernatural.

 

[Emli]

What do those on the anti-tongues side hope to gain? What difference does it make to them whether we speak in tongues, prophesy, pray for the sick and worship God in our own way? We have supported our stance with scripture and history. Why continue to fight us? What's to gain? Anything of value to offer? Not that I can see.

Their goal seems to be to snuff out the last remnants of life from the church. And replace it with dead orthodoxy. If water baptism has not expired, then neither has Holy Spirit baptism.

Luke 3:16
John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Exactly. It also what the Pharisees were doing to Jesus. They were attacking Him because of the message He preached and because He was showing the power of God, proving that He is God Himself.
But I want to correct you on one thing. We don't worship God in our own way. We worship God according to His Ways. As it is written. That is offensive to a lot of people, and I think that is why they are so aggressively fighting against it. And they are gaining nothing by it, but are losing much.

 

[Saint Steven]

Exactly. It also what the Pharisees were doing to Jesus. They were attacking Him because of the message He preached and because He was showing the power of God, proving that He is God Himself.
But I want to correct you on one thing. We don't worship God in our own way. We worship God according to His Ways. As it is written. That is offensive to a lot of people, and I think that is why they are so aggressively fighting against it. And they are gaining nothing by it, but are losing much.

Thanks for the reply. I agree.
However, the point I was trying to make is that I am not trying to impose a style of worship on the anti-tongues bunch. They are free to worship God as they best see fit. Even though we can agree that is not necessarily what God wants. (scripture below) I'm not about making the same sort of claims they make against us. Even though we have a better case. If winning brings division, I'd rather let it be.

In these sorts of disagreements, both side should ask themselves, "What if I am wrong?" If we are wrong about tongues, how does that effect things? And if they are wrong? Same question. Which outcome is more harmful to the church?

John 4:23-24
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

 

[Saint Steven]

There's a poll at the beginning of this topic. Everyone should take the opportunity to vote. You'll need to watch the 4 minute video in the OP to vote.

 

[Emli]

Thanks for the reply. I agree.
However, the point I was trying to make is that I am not trying to impose a style of worship on the anti-tongues bunch. They are free to worship God as they best see fit. Even though we can agree that is not necessarily what God wants. (scripture below) I'm not about making the same sort of claims they make against us. Even though we have a better case. If winning brings division, I'd rather let it be.

John 4:23-24
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Amen. And we all have to remember that in the end, God is still in control, and He knows what's going on better than all of us combined. What He has planned will happen, and nothing can stop it. He gave us the Bible and He knows what it means, we cannot even understand it without the Holy Spirit revealing it to us. But if we seek, we will find. If we ask for wisdom, He will give us wisdom. If we don't ask, we won't receive anything. But truth will still be true. We can trust that God didn't lie when He gave us the Bible, and we don't have to argue with anyone, we only have to do what God leads us to do, love each other and build each other up in Christ.

 

[Saint Steven]

Amen. And we all have to remember that in the end, God is still in control, and He knows what's going on better than all of us combined. What He has planned will happen, and nothing can stop it. He gave us the Bible and He knows what it means, we cannot even understand it without the Holy Spirit revealing it to us. But if we seek, we will find. If we ask for wisdom, He will give us wisdom. If we don't ask, we won't receive anything. But truth will still be true. We can trust that God didn't lie when He gave us the Bible, and we don't have to argue with anyone, we only have to do what God leads us to do, love each other and build each other up in Christ.

Thanks.
I'm always amazed when those who claim that the miracle gifts ended with the Apostles will accept the personal testimony of one of their own who says that God spoke to them. (a word of wisdom/knowledge/prophecy) or that they will pray for the sick who are then healed (gift of healing).

 

[Emli]

Thanks.
I'm always amazed when those who claim that the miracle gifts ended with the Apostles will accept the personal testimony of one of their own who says that God spoke to them. (a word of wisdom/knowledge/prophecy) or that they will pray for the sick who are then healed (gift of healing).

Confusion. People make up their own doctrines, not looking to God to teach them.

A lot of it seems to come when focus gets pulled away from them, their church, their traditions or their doctrines, their way of worship, and God alone and directly gets all the focus and glory. Just like with the Pharisees and Jesus. Then they search the Bible for verses to slander people instead of rejoicing with them. I hope and pray that God will break down their pride and open their eyes to see Him for who He is and not for who they want Him to be.

 

[OzSpen]

Your interpretation is out of context of the wider context of scripture. The precedent for the kind of tongues in 1 Cor. is Acts 2 where they obviously spoke languages people understood.

Who said so?

If the gift of tongues in 1 Cor 14 is based on the kind of tongues in Acts 2, there would be no need of the gift of interpretation in 1 Cor 14.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Check these dates.

A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says:
"Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished
for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held
rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet
through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly
embraced the true faith with their whole minds."

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John.
He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear
many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit
speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden
things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."

A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.

A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days,
he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and
considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid
hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."

I never said that I deny the reality of tongues. I deny the validity of it. Biblical tongues ceased in 70 AD at the fall of "this people." The reality of tongues after 70AD is driven by emotions and feelings from sincere, but sincerely wrong believers. Real. But not valid.

Isaiah 28:11~~New American Standard Bible
Indeed, He will speak to this people(unbelieving Israel) Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,

1 Corinthians 14:21
It is written in the Law: "By strange tongues and foreign lips I will speak to this people(unbelieving Israel), but even then they will not listen to Me, says the Lord."

1 Cor 14:22~~New American Standard Bible
So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers('this people'/unbelieving Israel); but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

Isaiah 28~~
22So now, do not mock,

or your(this people/unbelieving Israel) shackles will become heavier.

Indeed, I have heard from the Lord GOD of Hosts

a decree of destruction against the whole land(Israel).

Tongues were a sign to unbelieving Israel of their impending destruction........And that destruction of the whole land was in 70AD. So the sign of tongues to unbelieving Israel CEASED.

 

[tdidymas]

Of course we are much greater than Paul, we do not need for God to demonstrate His power

Words of men's wisdom is perfectly adequate.

….not

Since Jesus said "an evil and perverse generations seeks for signs," I'm fairly sure that a person who needs a sign is a perverse person. Now, I certainly admit that I was perverse prior to my conversion, and I admit that I was indeed seeking signs, which is the reason why I got into the "tongues" business in the first place. But after God told me it wasn't of Him, it still took me years before I was able to do the sweat work to find out just how "not of Him" it really was. And besides that, there were plenty of other "signs" that God showed me to satisfy my need for them, all of them by means not my own.

The fact is, we do not need the sign of miraculous tongues today. If we did, then God would be giving it. That sign would be obviously miraculous, as it was in the days of the apostles, when people could actually understand the miraculous tongues and knew beyond doubt that it was a language not learned. It would not be like what is commonly practiced today that is just random syllables that have no inherent meaning. It would not be something that could not be proven to be miraculous, which is the thing done in modern times. Anyone can do it, as is proven by research.

It appears to me that you are not in consideration of the gospel of grace in your response. Paul wrote in Rom. 1 "the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes." The implication in this statement is that the gospel message is powerful on its own, and needs no miraculous signs like tongues to get people to believe it. It does need a supernatural divine imposition in the heart of the person hearing it, though. In my case, God spoke to me in an audible voice, and this was quite enough to awaken me to the gravity of judgment enough to submit to the gospel message. So then, to some extent, when people need a sign for conversion, God will give it at the right time.

The sign doesn't need to be tongues. The "demonstration of the Spirit and power" was not primarily tongues as is the claim of "tongues talkers" in modern times, but was the many obviously miraculous works that the apostle did.

In consideration of the wider context of scripture, Biblical tongues was mainly for the Jews. In OT times, it was for telling the Jews that the judgment of God was upon them by means of a foreign nation (as declared by the prophet). In NT times it was for telling Jews that judgment was upon them in the spiritual and permanent sense, in order to wake them up from their lethargic unbelief. This actually happened in Acts 2. Later tongues was used to convince Jewish Christians that other nationalities were accepted by God, without them having to be Jewish proselytes, as shown in Acts. This is why Paul writes in 1 Cor. 14 that tongues is for the unbeliever.

We know that the gospel message is so simple that a 5-year-old can understand it, if that child is actually born of God and is a spiritual person already. But the gospel message is also so complex that a theological scholar can't possibly understand it, if that person is not born of God and therefore not a spiritual person. This is clearly stated in 1 Cor. 2 and other places in the NT. Therefore, since Paul's message preached in the days when there was no NT to study was too complex for the fleshly mind, they needed the signs (yes, tongues was one of them) to authenticate the message so that people would begin to listen, rather than just pass off the message as "so much complex philosophy" and likely irrelevant to daily life.

It was a time of transition between the 400 years of silence after completion of the OT, and the time of Christ and the church, before the completion of the NT. This is why signs were needed to authenticate the NT message, and is the reason why the writer of Hebrews states "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?" (Heb 2:3-4).

Since the writer of Hebrews excludes himself from among the performers of miraculous acts, we then conclude that miracles are not necessary for faith in the gospel message. Then what becomes necessary? (1)The NT writings, since we now have it, and was well in process of becoming NT canon even in the days of the writing of the epistle to the Hebrews. (2)The miraculous act of divine imposition in the heart of the individual being saved, which is the usual and common means of salvation since the 1st Century until today. This is clearly stated in Eph. 2 and elsewhere in the NT.

It is time for us all to take off our blinders and begin to understand the wider context of scripture and church history, so that we abandon our prejudices in order to see God working mightily to save people regardless of whether or not any visible miracles are performed. If we're able to see this, then we can abandon our sacred cows and grow in the faith as mature, knowledgeable Christlike people.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Of course we are much greater than Paul, we do not need for God to demonstrate His power

Words of men's wisdom is perfectly adequate.

….not

Perhaps you are one who needs a visible miracle to awaken you. But do you think it would be better to see an actual provable miracle, than one which requires blind faith to even believe it is miraculous? It is people with religious prejudices that give Christianity a bad name and hinder people from coming into the kingdom.
TD

 

[Emli]

Since Jesus said "an evil and perverse generations seeks for signs," I'm fairly sure that a person who needs a sign is a perverse person. Now, I certainly admit that I was perverse prior to my conversion, and I admit that I was indeed seeking signs, which is the reason why I got into the "tongues" business in the first place. But after God told me it wasn't of Him, it still took me years before I was able to do the sweat work to find out just how "not of Him" it really was. And besides that, there were plenty of other "signs" that God showed me to satisfy my need for them, all of them by means not my own.

The fact is, we do not need the sign of miraculous tongues today. If we did, then God would be giving it. That sign would be obviously miraculous, as it was in the days of the apostles, when people could actually understand the miraculous tongues and knew beyond doubt that it was a language not learned. It would not be like what is commonly practiced today that is just random syllables that have no inherent meaning. It would not be something that could not be proven to be miraculous, which is the thing done in modern times. Anyone can do it, as is proven by research.

It appears to me that you are not in consideration of the gospel of grace in your response. Paul wrote in Rom. 1 "the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes." The implication in this statement is that the gospel message is powerful on its own, and needs no miraculous signs like tongues to get people to believe it. It does need a supernatural divine imposition in the heart of the person hearing it, though. In my case, God spoke to me in an audible voice, and this was quite enough to awaken me to the gravity of judgment enough to submit to the gospel message. So then, to some extent, when people need a sign for conversion, God will give it at the right time.

The sign doesn't need to be tongues. The "demonstration of the Spirit and power" was not primarily tongues as is the claim of "tongues talkers" in modern times, but was the many obviously miraculous works that the apostle did.

In consideration of the wider context of scripture, Biblical tongues was mainly for the Jews. In OT times, it was for telling the Jews that the judgment of God was upon them by means of a foreign nation (as declared by the prophet). In NT times it was for telling Jews that judgment was upon them in the spiritual and permanent sense, in order to wake them up from their lethargic unbelief. This actually happened in Acts 2. Later tongues was used to convince Jewish Christians that other nationalities were accepted by God, without them having to be Jewish proselytes, as shown in Acts. This is why Paul writes in 1 Cor. 14 that tongues is for the unbeliever.

We know that the gospel message is so simple that a 5-year-old can understand it, if that child is actually born of God and is a spiritual person already. But the gospel message is also so complex that a theological scholar can't possibly understand it, if that person is not born of God and therefore not a spiritual person. This is clearly stated in 1 Cor. 2 and other places in the NT. Therefore, since Paul's message preached in the days when there was no NT to study was too complex for the fleshly mind, they needed the signs (yes, tongues was one of them) to authenticate the message so that people would begin to listen, rather than just pass of the message as "so much complex philosophy" and likely irrelevant to daily life.

It was a time of transition between the 400 years of silence after completion of the OT, and the time of Christ and the church, before the completion of the NT. This is why signs were needed to authenticate the NT message, and is the reason why the writer of Hebrews states "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?" (Heb 2:3-4).

Since the writer of Hebrews excludes himself from among the performers of miraculous acts, we then conclude that miracles are not necessary for faith in the gospel message. Then what becomes necessary? (1)The NT writings, since we now have it, and was well in process of becoming NT canon even in the days of the writing of the epistle to the Hebrews. (2)The miraculous act of divine imposition in the heart of the individual being saved, which is the usual and common means of salvation since the 1st Century until today. This is clearly stated in Eph. 2 and elsewhere in the NT.

It is time for us all to take of our blinders and begin to understand the wider context of scripture and church history, so that we abandon our prejudices in order to see God working mightily to save people regardless of whether or not any visible miracles are performed. If we're able to see this, then we can abandon our sacred cows and grow in the faith as mature, knowledgeable Christlike people.
TD

So do you believe in the other gifts and signs and wonders, just not tongues?

I agree, the Gospel comes first always.

But I have seen so many miracles not just in my relationship with God, but also accompanying my witnessing, I know that God does a LOT of miracles when He chooses to, and some of it He did through me (healing, deliverance, prophecying, some miracles etc) some of it only through prayer. Some of it got a hardcore atheist to soften his hardened core, or rather God was doing the softening, and though he is still not saved (but I believe very close) it is still making his mind spin. I am in awe when God moves like that, I feel completely speechless!

 

[tdidymas]

"I would that ye did all speak in tongues" Paul never retracted that statement "earnestly desire the higher gifts but especially that ye may prophesy." he never detracted that statement.

"forbid not speaking in tongues and quench not the Spirit"

I'm trying to correct your misquote of the scripture, and resulting misapplication. You wrote:

the Word says we should all speak in tongues

It does not say "we should all speak in tongues" as you claim. Go back and read it carefully. You are injecting a meaning into the text that doesn't belong. Paul wrote "I would that ye all..." - he was writing about a desire he had, not about what Christians "should do."

A false idea is that people are to take from God what He promises. They often quote (out of context) the statement about "the violent take it (the kingdom) by force." The scripture actually exhorts us to believe the promises of God, not requiring any work or "taking" of it. We are to simply believe that God is at work and wait for Him to accomplish His promises (such as His promise to purify our hearts from sin).

Therefore to say that "the Word says that we should speak in tongues" is an abject misrepresentation of what Paul wrote.
TD

 

[Saint Steven]

I never said that I deny the reality of tongues. I deny the validity of it. Biblical tongues ceased in 70 AD at the fall of "this people." The reality of tongues after 70AD is driven by emotions and feelings from sincere, but sincerely wrong believers. Real. But not valid.

Isaiah 28:11~~New American Standard Bible
Indeed, He will speak to this people(unbelieving Israel) Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,

1 Corinthians 14:21
It is written in the Law: "By strange tongues and foreign lips I will speak to this people(unbelieving Israel), but even then they will not listen to Me, says the Lord."

1 Cor 14:22~~New American Standard Bible
So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers('this people'/unbelieving Israel); but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

Isaiah 28~~
22So now, do not mock,

or your(this people/unbelieving Israel) shackles will become heavier.

Indeed, I have heard from the Lord GOD of Hosts

a decree of destruction against the whole land(Israel).

Tongues were a sign to unbelieving Israel of their impending destruction........And that destruction of the whole land was in 70AD. So the sign of tongues to unbelieving Israel CEASED.

Thanks.
What do you hope to gain from all this?

 

[tdidymas]

So do you believe in the other gifts and signs and wonders, just not tongues?

I agree, the Gospel comes first always.

But I have seen so many miracles not just in my relationship with God, but also accompanying my witnessing, I know that God does a LOT of miracles when He chooses to, and some of it He did through me (healing, deliverance, prophecying, some miracles etc) some of it only through prayer. Some of it got a hardcore atheist to soften his hardened core, or rather God was doing the softening, and though he is still not saved (but I believe very close) it is still making his mind spin. I am in awe when God moves like that, I feel completely speechless!

Indeed God does many miraculous things, and I have seen some of them. But the usual and "common" type of miracle that God does is often for the individual only, and is not proven to others as being miraculous. Those acts of miracles which are listed in 1 Cor. 12 commonly known as "the nine spiritual gifts" are not in operation today, at least I have not seen them myself, nor have I heard anyone testify that such miracles have been proven to be authentic. Every time someone testifies of seeing one of those miracles, it turns out you have to just take their word for it, which is suspect. Those miracles were obvious miraculous events in the eyes of both believers and unbelievers alike. Not like today's "tongues" that cannot be proven to be miraculous, simply because it is not.

I am talking about real miracles, not the ones that people just lay claim to, which in all cases I've seen are exaggerated into existence. There are psychics who are simply good guessers and know the heart of people so much that they can guess up a "miraculous" knowledge. But I have had prophecies spoken over me in the past that not one has come to pass, and some of them decades past their maturity. The reason I don't believe in prophets today is because of the "prophets" themselves. If prophecy, tongues, healing, etc. in the miraculous sense was required for me to be a Christian, I would not be a Christian today. So-called modern "prophets" and "miracle-workers" are the ones hindering many from coming into the kingdom - but hindering, not preventing, since God is more powerful than any deceiver.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

I have never spoken in tongues myself, but I do believe that there is a real gift of speaking in tongues. There are also demonic tongues, and we can make up languages as well. I used to make up my own languages when I was a child, which sounded a lot like the type of tongues we see in some videos, and I have spoken in demonic tongues, which is also common in some videos. What do these two situations have in common? Disorder and chaos, no good Scriptural foundation.

But I have also heard true tongues being spoken, which were definitely from the Holy Spirit, spoken by those who truly know the Lord and His Word. There was nothing demonic about it. I haven't gotten the gift myself, because I have been urged by God to study the Bible a lot more when I have prayed about it.

What I do see among those who claim that all tongues are demonic is a deep fear of the devil. We live in times of great deception, with many false teachers and false prophets, doctrines of men and doctrines of demons, but God is still sovereign. He is still in control. If someone earnestly seek Him and study His Word, He will respond, He will lead us and teach us. He will intervene in our lives, and He will not let the devil deceive us for too long. Those who say that all tongues, all gifts, are of the devil are giving way too much power to the devil. He is a real foe, and he has real power, real signs and wonders, but he is nothing at all compared to God. If someone fears the Lord, they don't need to fear the devil, because God will strengthen and protect them, keep them alert and awake.

Out of all the gifts, the gift of discerning of spirits is the most important one, and usually the last one people seek unfortunately. But that gift (and I have it myself) reveals whether something is of God or not, and we should all seek it, and put all of our faith and trust in God.

Pointing at everything that you disagree with, saying it is of the devil is idolatry, because you are making the devil bigger than God, taking what is of God and claiming that the devil has done it. You are lowering God, and calling Him a liar, and elevating the devil, putting a whole lot more faith in him than in God, fearing him a lot more than you fear God.

If we see someone preach the true Gospel (Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Messiah, Word of God come in the flesh, who died on the Cross for our sins and rose again and conquered death, grace through faith, repentance and death to self, baptism, sanctification, saying that we should study the entire Bible, no false doctrines etc), and Jesus saves a lot of people through that person, no one would say that is the devil doing it. But then the one preaching prays in tongues, then suddenly the devil was behind pointing a lot of people to Christ, preaching sound doctrine? It makes absolutely no sense.

I have cast out many demons by the Spirit, and seen people be set free by Jesus Christ, and of course the critics come running saying it was of the devil (which may be the unforgivable sin btw). Same with healing, a gift that God has given me. Someone was miraculously healed, praise God! BUT, some doctrines say that the sign gifts no longer exists, so of course that was the devil... ???????? People, stop taking what is of God and claim it's of Satan! It makes no sense, and it is idolatry! The devil would never, ever want anyone to be saved by Jesus Christ!

We have to judge a tree by its fruit, not by signs and wonders or lack thereof and not by works. If a person's spirit points people to Jesus, calls Him Lord and does what He has commanded, shows the fruit of the Holy Spirit, preach repentance from sins and everything else that God has commanded us in Scripture, that is the Holy Spirit. If it doesn't, it is NOT the Holy Spirit. If the one with the Holy Spirit does something that you are unfamiliar with or unsure about, don't automatically claim it's of the devil.

The way I see it, if someone seeks signs and wonders, or their own will and their own glory and their own name known, they will find the devil. But if someone seeks God, His will, His glory and to make His name known, they will find Him, and if it is His plan for them, signs and wonders may follow. They did for me. Now, if anyone wants to test my faith to see if I'm a true Christian, go ahead! I'm not perfect in any way, but I know Jesus. I surrendered my entire life to Him and I have chosen to live according to His will, for His Kingdom, for His Name the rest of my life, because I know that God and the Gospel is all that matters. It is His will be done, which I pray every, single day and mean it. He gave me some gifts and some signs and wonders follow me where He leads me. If you want to claim that the devil is doing them (healing, casting out demons, stopping the rain and the storms, etc) go ahead, but that isn't going to change what God is doing.

We all have to be very careful in our faith, making sure that we are led by the Word and by the Holy Spirit, and also make sure that what we see is of God or not. But we also have to make sure to not end up in fear, thinking that everything is of the devil.

I agree, we must be careful in what we say as well as what we believe. I don't discount that there could be some authentic Holy Spirit given tongues out there somewhere. But in my case, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack of false tongues (and I'm not willing to seek it out). What is commonly spoke in charismatic circles today is a human phenomenon, like the language you made up.

Even if a godly preacher speaks it, he is merely deceived into thinking it is of the Spirit, when in reality it is merely himself doing it. The tongues of the NT is something that is clearly and obviously miraculous, like it was in Acts 2. What is commonly spoken today is just a bunch of random syllables which have no inherent meaning, and is not an intelligible language. This is a human phenomenon, and many non-Christians do it, so it doesn't take the miraculous power of God to accomplish it. It has been proven by research.

I have invited tongue-talkers to record their tongues so that it can be evaluated by a linguist, but so far no one has done it. If people are unwilling to let their "gift" be evaluated, then that "gift" is suspect. I have yet to hear or read of any testimony that clearly described how exactly modern day glossolalia edifies even the person speaking it. From my POV, there is simply no edification in it at all. The only apparent edification is the hype of getting people to believe in tongues. I believe it is a distraction from the true gospel message. Some people claim to be Christians because they speak modern day glossolalia, not because they understand or believe the gospel of grace.
TD

 

[Emli]

Indeed God does many miraculous things, and I have seen some of them. But the usual and "common" type of miracle that God does is often for the individual only, and is not proven to others as being miraculous. Those acts of miracles which are listed in 1 Cor. 12 commonly known as "the nine spiritual gifts" are not in operation today, at least I have not seen them myself, nor have I heard anyone testify that such miracles have been proven to be authentic. Every time someone testifies of seeing one of those miracles, it turns out you have to just take their word for it, which is suspect. Those miracles were obvious miraculous events in the eyes of both believers and unbelievers alike. Not like today's "tongues" that cannot be proven to be miraculous, simply because it is not.

I am talking about real miracles, not the ones that people just lay claim to, which in all cases I've seen are exaggerated into existence. There are psychics who are simply good guessers and know the heart of people so much that they can guess up a "miraculous" knowledge. But I have had prophecies spoken over me in the past that not one has come to pass, and some of them decades past their maturity. The reason I don't believe in prophets today is because of the "prophets" themselves. If prophecy, tongues, healing, etc. in the miraculous sense was required for me to be a Christian, I would not be a Christian today. So-called modern "prophets" and "miracle-workers" are the ones hindering many from coming into the kingdom - but hindering, not preventing, since God is more powerful than any deceiver.
TD

Well, I have some of those gifts, and I know that they are authentic and of the Holy Spirit, so they are definitely real today. You don't have to believe me, and if you don't, I won't judge you. I'm giving my testimonies of what God has done in my life, and it is your choice whether to believe or not.

I have the gift of discerning of spirits, which means I can see whether it's an evil spirit, a human spirit or the Holy Spirit working in a person, and if it's an evil spirit, what kind of spirit it is. It is not cold reading, it is supernatural. It's necessary for when I do deliverance. I also have the gift of doing miracles and of healing, and I have stopped the weather in Jesus' name after the Holy Spirit told me to, healed myself and others, and raised a dead caterpillar to life. I know that sounds weird, but that caterpillar later turned into a butterfly and that was an intensely beautiful moment between me and God. God has told me that I will see the dead raised in the future, which I know will happen, because I also have the gift of prophecy. Not only has God given me prophecies, dreams and visions, about myself but about others as well, and they all happened as He had told me or shown me. It was not divination, like what false prophets do, it was the Holy Spirit communicating with me. And it happened exactly as He spoke. Same with words of knowledge and wisdom. I also have the gift of faith so I will be able to walk in faith and believe in all of this. What I lack is the gifts of tongues.

Do I need to prove this to anyone? No, not unless that is God's will. Is it still real? Yep! Can I use these gifts for my own glory? NO!!! I can't use them at all, it is the Holy Spirit working through me, and I can only ever experience the gifts when He is moving through me to build up our sisters or brothers or to open the eyes of unbelievers.

And no, I'm not bragging or saying this to make myself look important. I'm not important, but Jesus is my everything and He chose to equip me for His namesake. I'm not a prophet or a miracle-worker or an apostle, I'm a daughter of God, a disciple of Christ and a worker for the Gospel. I simply asked God to reveal to me what gifts are and how they work, and He showed me. But not before He told me to take my walk with Him seriously and always put the Bible first so I wouldn't be misled.

I know what the false healers and self-proclaimed prophets are like, I have been attacked by them when exposing their false gifts and prophecies that weren't Biblical. But just because the devil has a foothold in some churches doesn't mean that all gifts are demonic. The devil imitates what God does, but he hasn't taken over. God still gifts those He desires to gift, and it's for a purpose. It is not a requirement to be a Christian, but it is still something that God uses today. Maybe you should pray and ask Him to show you as well? If not for your own walk with Him, at least so you will know in what ways He is using gifts today.

 

[Saint Steven]

I agree, we must be careful in what we say as well as what we believe. I don't discount that there could be some authentic Holy Spirit given tongues out there somewhere. But in my case, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack of false tongues (and I'm not willing to seek it out). What is commonly spoke in charismatic circles today is a human phenomenon, like the language you made up.

Even if a godly preacher speaks it, he is merely deceived into thinking it is of the Spirit, when in reality it is merely himself doing it. The tongues of the NT is something that is clearly and obviously miraculous, like it was in Acts 2. What is commonly spoken today is just a bunch of random syllables which have no inherent meaning, and is not an intelligible language. This is a human phenomenon, and many non-Christians do it, so it doesn't take the miraculous power of God to accomplish it. It has been proven by research.

I have invited tongue-talkers to record their tongues so that it can be evaluated by a linguist, but so far no one has done it. If people are unwilling to let their "gift" be evaluated, then that "gift" is suspect. I have yet to hear or read of any testimony that clearly described how exactly modern day glossolalia edifies even the person speaking it. From my POV, there is simply no edification in it at all. The only apparent edification is the hype of getting people to believe in tongues. I believe it is a distraction from the true gospel message. Some people claim to be Christians because they speak modern day glossolalia, not because they understand or believe the gospel of grace.
TD

Is a linguist the ultimate judge of whether a tongue is "genuine" or not?
If the linguist can't identify the tongue, then it isn't a manifestation of the Holy Spirit?
Why would a linguist be the expert on this subject? Just be cause you claim it must be a known language?

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

 

[tdidymas]

The Corinthians needed miracles?
They were already "swinging from the chandeliers" when Paul wrote to them to bring some order.

Your snide remark doesn't hold water. Paul wrote that they were demonstrated the power of God (by Paul) before they became the Corinthian church, before they believed. Then they were "swinging from the chandeliers" as you say after they became a church, but when they were not mature enough to discern what was godly and what was not.

If after knowing what Paul wrote in 1 Cor. that you still have an intense desire to speak glossolalia in public without an interpreter, why do you not think that your glossolalia isn't suspect, that perhaps it is of the flesh and not the Spirit? The fact is, Paul's instruction covers the false as well as the authentic miraculous events of his day. When we see continued violation of his instruction in today's practices, of course it puts that practice as suspect. Therefore, if someone is not willing for their glossolalia to be evaluated to see if it is an authentic miracle, then IMO we should pass it off as suspect, and merely an aberrant form of religious worship.
TD