Spark of Divinity in Every Person?

[Rescued One]

Pelosi on Trump: 'Does He Not Believe in the Spark of Divinity, the Dignity and Worth of Every Person?'
Pelosi on Trump: 'Does He Not Believe in the Spark of Divinity, the Dignity and Worth of Every Person?'

John 8
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

John 10
22And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Do we have the right to protect ourselves from criminals?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I suppose the question is what is meant by "spark of divinity". If this is simply a reference to the Imago Dei--the Divine Image--then there's really no problem.

It's not a phrasing that I would be comfortable with, because I think, even at best, it erroneously might suggest there is something innately divine about us. We aren't divine, and we don't house a "spark" of the Divine. But we are made in the Divine Image and Likeness, and in Christ we do participate in God through Theosis.

I suspect the only real way to understand Pelosi's specific theological ideas on the subject would be to ask her or see if she's spoken about it before. But, again, I suspect it's just a poorly phrased way of speaking of the Christian idea of the Imago Dei, and thus of the innate and intrinsic dignity and value of the human person.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoveofTruth]

Pelosi on Trump: 'Does He Not Believe in the Spark of Divinity, the Dignity and Worth of Every Person?'
Pelosi on Trump: 'Does He Not Believe in the Spark of Divinity, the Dignity and Worth of Every Person?'

John 8
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

John 10
22And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Do we have the right to protect ourselves from criminals?

John 1:9. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

 

[Rescued One]

John 1:9. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

Yes, the light is there!

John 3
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[Rescued One]

I suppose the question is what is meant by "spark of divinity". If this is simply a reference to the Imago Dei--the Divine Image--then there's really no problem.

It's not a phrasing that I would be comfortable with, because I think, even at best, it erroneously might suggest there is something innately divine about us. We aren't divine, and we don't house a "spark" of the Divine. But we are made in the Divine Image and Likeness, and in Christ we do participate in God through Theosis.

I suspect the only real way to understand Pelosi's specific theological ideas on the subject would be to ask her or see if she's spoken about it before. But, again, I suspect it's just a poorly phrased way of speaking of the Christian idea of the Imago Dei, and thus of the innate and intrinsic dignity and value of the human person.

-CryptoLutheran

The whole world lies in wickedness, and everyone has sinned. Jesus came to save sinners and Christians are called to love.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[Rescued One]

Do we have the right to protect ourselves from criminals?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes, the light is there!

John 3
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 12:36. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.”

It seems that Jesus hid from them to help them walk in that light even if they don’t see him physically.
John said to walk in the light also

 

[Rescued One]

John 12:36. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.”

It seems that Jesus his from them to help them walk in that light even if they don’t see him physically.
John said to walk in the light also

I'm positive that Christians should walk in the light. That doesn't cause the children of Satan to obey Him. Don't you believe that God sllows evil to exist? Why do we have laws dor men to follow? There are laws that thousands ignore. I was/am the only one of my mother's six children who became a Christian. My parents weren't Christians. My two stepfathers weren't Christians. My maternal grandparents weren't. My paternal grandfather died when my father was a young boy. My paternal grandmother and I had no contact. As far as I know she didn't attend any church. Is a non-believer going to read his Bible and learn God's will?

Please explain your position.
John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 F or every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

 

[hedrick]

Library : Red Mass: The Divine Spark Within Us

As the bishop uses it, it’s a way to talk about the image of God in a way that isn’t limited to a Christianity.

 

[Andrewn]

As the bishop uses it, it’s a way to talk about the image of God in a way that isn’t limited to a Christianity.

I suppose the question is what is meant by "spark of divinity". If this is simply a reference to the Imago Dei--the Divine Image--then there's really no problem.

For a long time I've wanted to ask the question: What remained of the spark of divinity / the image of God after the Fall?

Adam died spiritually when he ate of the Tree. And the Apostle Paul tells us in Ephesians that people are born spiritually dead. We need to be born again. So, in what sense do people have a spark of divinity / image of God before regeneration & Baptism?

 

[hedrick]

For a long time I've wanted to ask the question: What remained of the spark of divinity / the image of God after the Fall?

Adam died spiritually when he ate of the Tree. And the Apostle Paul tells us in Ephesians that people are born spiritually dead. We need to be born again. So, in what sense do people have a spark of divinity / image of God before regeneration & Baptism?

If you do a search for "image" you'll find it used a number of times in the OT and a couple in the NT (e.g. 1 Cor 11:7). I have found no statements saying either that it was removed or even corrupted.

For Paul, the wages of sin are death. Thus those who are not in Christ are dead. Unfortunately both image of God and death may well be non-literal, so it's hard to be sure of the relationship. The Logos commentary on Eph 2:1 says

"Already in the OT, particularly in the Psalms, a life in disease, sin, alienation, captivity, or under the rule of one’s enemies was seen as a life in Sheol or in the realm of death" (citing a number of references, many from Psalms).

So one reading of death is that that's where people are headed, and it's sort of present now, just as the new life is both future and present now.

I can understand the idea that this implies a corruption of the image. But I don't think that conclusion is ever drawn. The image of God really speaks of our nature. Sin is about our actions and state before God. Sin doesn't necessarily change our nature. Indeed I'm not convinced that the concept of "fall" is present in Scripture. That we are subject to sin certainly is, but the doctrine of the Fall is more specific than that. Gen 3 can just as well be viewed as a demonstration of our propensity to sin as a fall from perfection.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do we have the right to protect ourselves from criminals?

That's a complicated ethical and moral question. Jesus' commandment is that if someone strikes us on the one cheek we are turn and offer the other, and to not resist [through violence] the evil person. Likewise, St. Paul in Romans 12 says the same, that we should repay no one evil for evil. Further Paul, in Romans 13, speaks of the state as the instrument of civil justice against evildoers.

The early Church frowned upon the use of violence, harshly forbidding Christians from engaging in it,

"Above all, Christians are not allowed to correct with violence the delinquencies of sins." - St. Clement of Alexandria, Fragments, X

"For Christ called not the just nor the chaste to repentance, but the ungodly, and the licentious, and the unjust; His words being, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." For the heavenly Father desires rather the repentance than the punishment of the sinner. And of our love to all, He taught thus: "If you love them that love you, what new thing are you doing? For even fornicators do this. But I say unto you, Pray for your enemies, and love them that hate you, and bless them that curse you, and pray for them that despitefully use you." And that we should communicate to the needy, and do nothing for glory, He said, "Give to him that asks, and from him that would borrow turn not away; for if you lend to them of whom you hope to receive, what new thing are you doing? Even the publicans do this. Lay not up for yourselves treasure upon earth, where moth and rust does corrupt, and where robbers break through; but lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven, where neither moth nor rust does corrupt. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for it? Lay up treasure, therefore, in heaven, where neither moth nor rust does corrupt." And, "Be kind and merciful, as your Father also is kind and merciful, and makes His sun to rise on sinners, and the righteous, and the wicked. Take no thought what you shall eat, or what you shall put on: are you not better than the birds and the beasts? And God feeds them. Take no thought, therefore, what you shall eat, or what you shall put on; for your heavenly Father knows that you have need of these things. But seek the kingdom of heaven, and all these things shall be added unto you. For where his treasure is, there also is the mind of a man." And, "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven."

And concerning our being patient of injuries, and ready to serve all, and free from anger, this is what He said: "To him that smites you on the one cheek, offer also the other; and him that takes away your cloak or coat, forbid not. And whosoever shall be angry, is in danger of the fire. And every one that compels you to go with him a mile, follow him two. And let your good works shine before men, that they, seeing them, may glorify your Father which is in heaven." For we ought not to strive; neither has He desired us to be imitators of wicked men, but He has exhorted us to lead all men, by patience and gentleness, from shame and the love of evil. And this indeed is proved in the case of many who once were of your way of thinking, but have changed their violent and tyrannical disposition, being overcome either by the constancy which they have witnessed in their neighbours' lives, or by the extraordinary forbearance they have observed in their fellow-travellers when defrauded, or by the honesty of those with whom they have transacted business." - St. Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch. 15-16

One can find statements like this throughout the writings of the early fathers.

That the Christian is called to a life of peaceful coexistence, loving our neighbor, refusing violence, etc.

So the question of whether it is acceptable to use violence in self defense is not an easy question.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'm positive that Christians should walk in the light. That doesn't cause the children of Satan to obey Him. Don't you believe that God sllows evil to exist? Why do we have laws dor men to follow? There are laws that thousands ignore. I was/am the only one of my mother's six children who became a Christian. My parents weren't Christians. My two stepfathers weren't Christians. My maternal grandparents weren't. My paternal grandfather died when my father was a young boy. My paternal grandmother and I had no contact. As far as I know she didn't attend any church. Is a non-believer going to read his Bible and learn God's will?

Please explain your position.
John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 F or every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

All will be judged according to the light they have and the secrets of men God knows.

Romans 2:14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another )16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

Psalm 51:6. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.”

Jeremiah 17:10. I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.”

 

[Rescued One]

In the New Testament, we read:

John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[The Liturgist]

Library : Red Mass: The Divine Spark Within Us

As the bishop uses it, it’s a way to talk about the image of God in a way that isn’t limited to a Christianity.

But those who reject Christianity and ancient Judaism do not worship the same God we do; they are made in the image of our triune God), but surely the traditional Christian faith has been since the Patristic era concerning other religions that at their very best, they worship what they do not know (the cult of the Unknown God on the Aereopagus), and in many tragic decisions, they are delused by demons and idols one would presume to be of demonic inspiration (see how the Masoretic and Septuagint translate Psalm 96, numbered 95 by the Seventy, or at the the remarks of Old Testament prophets concerning idolatry).

 

[LoveofTruth]

I suppose the question is what is meant by "spark of divinity". If this is simply a reference to the Imago Dei--the Divine Image--then there's really no problem.

It's not a phrasing that I would be comfortable with, because I think, even at best, it erroneously might suggest there is something innately divine about us. We aren't divine, and we don't house a "spark" of the Divine. But we are made in the Divine Image and Likeness, and in Christ we do participate in God through Theosis.

I suspect the only real way to understand Pelosi's specific theological ideas on the subject would be to ask her or see if she's spoken about it before. But, again, I suspect it's just a poorly phrased way of speaking of the Christian idea of the Imago Dei, and thus of the innate and intrinsic dignity and value of the human person.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes the expression used by her may be a false concept she has. We are not trying to figure out that all along we are divine, no. But the true Light lighteth every man John 1:9. Yet none are in union with the Light Christ until they receive him in their heart and have the new birth. Christ Light will convict all others and reprove them if they come to it. All things that are reproved are made manifest by the light and the lost hate the light because their deeds are evil.