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Spanish leaders want bishops' apology for pro-family rally

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by SecretOfFatima, Jan 4, 2008.

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  1. SecretOfFatima

    SecretOfFatima Our Lady of Fatima: Song of Solomon 6:10 (NIV)

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    source: http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=55720

    Madrid, Jan. 3, 2008 (CWNews.com) - Spanish government leaders have asked the country's Catholic bishops to apologize for the massive pro-family rally held in Madrid on December 30, Vatican Radio reports.

    Leaders of the Socialist governing party have charged that the Church intervened in partisan political affairs with the rally, which drew nearly 2 million participants. (The government is reporting that only 160,000 took part in the demonstration.) The government has asked the bishops' conference for an apology.

    Although 40 bishops took part in the pro-family event, and the hierarchy gave clear support to the event, the rally was organized primarily by lay Catholic activists. The organizers have consistently argued that the rally was not intended as a partisan political event, but as a public expression of support for the traditional family founded on Christian marriage.

    Here is a video of the event
    http://www.findinternettv.com/Video,item,467678414.aspx
     
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  2. faerieevaH

    faerieevaH lucky wife

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    The Catholic Church has always interfeared in politics. It can not 'not' interfear. As long as they do it this way, I don't mind, but I can understand a certain weariness for parties with an oposing viewpoint. It is not that long ago that the priests basically told everyone whom to vote for, and the consequences for the general public were not always the greatest.
     
  3. SecretOfFatima

    SecretOfFatima Our Lady of Fatima: Song of Solomon 6:10 (NIV)

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    Unfortunately the spanish politians have one thing in mind and they have made this feeling know publicly before, they want to get rid of Religion...

    Like this rally has been twisted to make the Catholic Church look bad.

    I don't know if any of you watch the video, but the Holy Father did a live broadcast from the Vatican to the crowd.

    If we think we have it bad in our own countries, then just look at the changes they have made, one of the most obvious is that the Birth certificates no longer use the term Mother or Father.
     
  4. Foundthelight

    Foundthelight St. Peter's R.C. Church, Delhi, NY Supporter

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    I am glad that they are standing up for truth.
     
  5. Snowbunny

    Snowbunny Mexican Princess

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    hola,

    this is why i think they should give more power back to the king and the nobles... they are more loyal to the Church.

    que Dios te bendiga
     
  6. 2Cosmic2Charlie

    2Cosmic2Charlie Guest

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    I don't know.

    Over the years the Chruch has backed the monarchests, the fascists and the loyalists (who used to use republican POW's for bayonet practice).

    But they protest the socialists.

    Whatever, I guess.
     
  7. NiteClerk

    NiteClerk Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What do they use in place of Mother and Father?
     
  8. Fish and Bread

    Fish and Bread Dona nobis pacem

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    As people have alluded to, historical context is important here as it regards church-state interaction in Spain. The Church heavily (albeit unofficially) backed Franco (who was arguably a fascist, that's the way most historians categorize him, though it's arguable that he was just a very conservative totalitarian dictator rather than a fascist per say) in the earlier half the 20th century with priests actively assisting the military (etc), the worst of the inquisitions were carried out in Spain a few centuries prior, and so on and so forth.

    That doesn't mean I agree with the Spanish socialists today that the Church shouldn't be participating so heavily in rallies -- I think it's a valid means of expression for a religious body to participate in peaceful protests -- but I do understand why those in Spain might be a bit more concerned about the role of the Church in politics than folks, in, say, the United States might be. History colors the present.
     
  9. SecretOfFatima

    SecretOfFatima Our Lady of Fatima: Song of Solomon 6:10 (NIV)

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    There are various sources out there on this matter but here a quote from the following source: http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/mar/06031001.html


    ...
    That's when the Spanish government announced a ministerial order that new births would have to be registered at the State Civil Registries in the Family Book under the headings of Parent (progenitor) A, and Parent (progenitor) B.


    In other words, the terms "Father" and "Mother" were to be no longer used.


    In Spain, marriages, births and deaths are all recorded at Civil Registries, with most of those actions being noted in a Family Book (Libro de Familia). While the example isn't perfect, think of the Family Book as an extended birth certificate.


    Juan Fernando López Aguilar, Spanish Minister of Justice, excused the ministerial order by claiming since the government modified "the status of civil marriages, to allow the union of same-sex couples, it was necessary for a new format for the Family Book (Libro de Familia) and one that used terms such as "Parent A" and "Parent B" instead of "Father" and "Mother."


    That's right. To match up it's same-sex marriage legislation to the Civil Registry, the government deemed that Spaniards could no longer qualify themselves as either "Fathers" or "Mothers" of their children.
    ...
     
  10. Snowbunny

    Snowbunny Mexican Princess

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    hola

    that is strange if the intention is to make gay marriages more legitimate in spain... it is not possible for two people of the same sex to be 'progenitors'
     
  11. SecretOfFatima

    SecretOfFatima Our Lady of Fatima: Song of Solomon 6:10 (NIV)

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    Good point, but would you expect any less from atheists, as i said before the government has made it's opinion public and they are doing everything they can to destroy the Catholic Church, they even taxing charitable donations that Catholics donate in the Church, that is how bad it is.
     
  12. Snowbunny

    Snowbunny Mexican Princess

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    si,

    i know, i'm a grandee of spain (Doña Annette Sofia María Isabel Hamilton de Eliot-Lerdo y de Fitzgerald), we go to madrid almost every year with my family. the atheists are like a cult there... they completely reject what remains of the nobility and royal family and their new target is now the Church... which they see as the same thing except religious. it is very very very bad

    que Dios te bendiga
     
  13. NiteClerk

    NiteClerk Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Lets call a rose by some other name and see if smells differently. :)
     
  14. Snowbunny

    Snowbunny Mexican Princess

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    how will they decide how to assign A and B?

    if they make progenitor A a man and progenitor B a woman then it will be sexism.

    if they make progenitor A a woman and progenitor B a man then it will be feminism :)
     
  15. Fish and Bread

    Fish and Bread Dona nobis pacem

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    Neat. Do you still have the right to address the King of Spain while having your head covered and address him as "cousin"? Do people still refer to you as "Most Excellent Lady"? Or have these traditions passed away in recent years?

    I honestly did not know that the Spanish nobility still existed. I had to google it.
     
  16. Snowbunny

    Snowbunny Mexican Princess

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    si i suppose so... it's been an issue maybe once in my life. i was presented to king juan carlos as a little girl using a variation of the above style 'most excellent lady' that included my french crusader and spanish titles 'baroness of x' 'countess of y' ... two hours later the locals addressed me with an (unrepeatable) slang term for an attractive american tourist, which was scarringly creepy because i was 12.

    si, most people do not... because it is so inconsequential. the nobility, like the monarchy in spain is an embarassing relic to a dead era. for me it is just an issue of respecting my family and our traditions... so it is important to me and more importantly my father. when he joined the military (before i was born) he did not know that americans in the army could not hold foreign titles... apparently this is a law... i was just born when he found out and so he passed his titles to me, as did my mother just in case. according to spanish law that is not enough and i had to 'present' my spanish letters patent to the king in order to make it legal... so they waited until i was old enough.

    but it is only something with family... i'm a dual citizen... so in spain i am legally 'dona annette' but in the united states my drivers license just says 'annette hamilton' and the most honorific i would ever except from somebody is 'mrs h' :) or senora h in spain :)
     
  17. Fish and Bread

    Fish and Bread Dona nobis pacem

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    I love traditions like this and I'm glad to see they've been preserved. I hope they don't die out in the next few generations. They're an important link to our past (I'm not of Spanish descent, I mean all of our collective past, as members of the human race). Even though some of the things associated with the system of nobility in the past may not have been just, I do think that, today, after all the necessary and just reforms have been made, it is worthwhile to preserve the titles and some of the traditions associated with them (excluding those traditions that offer better legal standing before the justice system when accused of a crime and so forth).

    I believe that it's possible to preserve the system of nobility in Europe in such a way that is compatible with the concepts of democracy and equality under the law. Though it is admittedly a hard tight-rope to walk, I think it's one worth walking. These traditions are in a sense living history, and I'm not sure it is any more right to throw them away than it would be right to throw away the work of a great painter or artist. It bothers me that these things are disappearing. The dissolution of the Papal Court and the discontinuation of a role for the Italian nobility in certain Papal masses similarly annoys me.

    Europe is throwing away it's heritage in some respects and I find it disturbing. It shows a disregard for our fore bearers and for western culture. Granted, the United States did the same thing a long time ago, but in a sense the US is a fresh tradition in a different part of the world, not having these traditions here did not, say, automatically mean discontinuing them in Britain.
     
  18. Snowbunny

    Snowbunny Mexican Princess

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    hola,

    i do not care much for politics or political theory (neither of which make sense to me)... so i do not know how it would be possible to have a nobility in a democracy...

    but i do think that there are many traditions in spanish culture which have gone away for very good reason... new world castas was a racist institution for example... and even though i know, just for fun, which caste i belong to (criollo) there are people who cannot look on these things as just interesting little connections to the past and take them very seriously. my grandmother was one such person...

    nobility is exactly the same... except for places where there are reigning and ruling monarchies i cannot imagine why it would be necessary to continue drawing imaginary lines around people. it is nice to know ones' history but as with castas not everybody can handle taking the issue lightly and instead attach all kinds of medieval significance to these things.

    it's safer to keep the past in the past...

    lol i always thought the name 'nobility' was strange though... the only reason i'm a baroness or countess of anything is because a very long time ago my extremely uneducated and barbaric forebearers clubbed a lot of people over the head and took all their stuff to their castles, thus making them 'noble' :scratch:

    i know about some of the things one of my ancestors did during the reconquista... these are probably people who, if alive today, i would be terrified of them and want them off the streets and jailed immediately.

    it's kind of cool though, one branch of my family goes back about 400 years before the birth of Christ, to the Cornelii patrician family in Rome.

    que Dios te bendiga
     
  19. Globalnomad

    Globalnomad Senior Veteran

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    Which "langue" or association of the Order of Malta do you belong to, Annette? Are you a Dame of Honor and Devotion or Magistral Grace?
     
  20. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

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    I have something for those who don't like it.
    :p
     
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