Space-Time, quantum mechanics and Christianity.

[David Domshy]

Hello all!
In not so recent news, Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO) found definite evidence of gravitational waves. This is pretty huge in cementing general relativity (GR) as a theory, oppose to a wishy washy idea with some bits that can be proved. Of course GR is, and potentially will always be, changing.

Now, the topic i would like to discuss, and potentially get a bit more understanding on, is how does a non-linear space-time and GR fit in with a Christian world view. As most of society and most Christians are taught, time is a constant that never changes and will always flow in one direction. Then science came a long and proved that it doesn't work that way. Now even if the effect has no change on our lives. It is still a thing we need to consider, even if it isn't in my life time, i want to be able to show or tell my future children how GR fits in with a Christian belief. Because space travel, i think, will become apart of our lives in the near future.

Is it something that we form our beliefs around? Is it something we need to find ways to fit it in to our beliefs? A partial in between?
(Now if you read this and have next to no clue what this means, don't look up GR and hope it explains itself. IT IS NOTHING SIMPLE. It is by far one of the most confusing theories, and it will take months of nonstop reading, and research to even to scratch the surface of it. I have spent nearly 2 years of my very short life researching into this topic, and i still learn new things. So if you know next to nothing on this topic, please don't attempt to guess from pieces of information that the media told you.)

 

[lesliedellow]

I don't see why General Relativity should affect Christianity at all. I would be hard pushed to think of any Christian doctrine which is dependent upon ideas about gravity or the speed of light.

 

[Ronald]

I concur with Lesliedellow. What does this have to do with Christian faith or the Bible? When God created the heavens and the earth, He created time along with it. Let me ask you this, if we did not have a sun, moon or stars, how would we measure time? Oh, without the existence of clocks either.

 

[David Domshy]

(I didn't to go into this but ok) If interstellar or even interplanetary space travel is to be apart of human expansion, we will have to factor in things such as time dilation, red shifting, and the expansion of the universe. Of course we can observe the red shift the initial radiation cause by the big bang, from the expansion of space-time. Now, in "short ranged" radio transmission, red shifting isn't much of a problem. It only becomes a problem when we look at communication from anywhere further than Neptune. At this point time dilation and partial red shifting become a problem. At this point we will have to come to the terms of a large (universally large) explosion that would separate nearly all particles, causing enough energy to make what we know today as the cosmic microwave background. This will be a problem, since most Christians believe in standard creationism, in which all life, time, space and all was created in 6 days. Of course God could create the cosmic microwave background, but anyone with any experience with philosophy would bring up Occam's razor.

As to the question of how we could measure time. Granted we knew that the combined destruction of all celestial bodies and clocks were to happen. I would imagine we would make a light based clock, one that can calculate the exact velocity of light, count how many reflections would happen in X amount of time and go from there. Or if we do not have time to make such device, we wouldn't have time that we could measure or run off of, unless we made a gravity based clock. Also, time and space-time are not the same thing.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I don't think it causes any more problems for the Christian world view than it already has as regards physics.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Hello all!
In not so recent news, Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO) found definite evidence of gravitational waves. This is pretty huge in cementing general relativity (GR) as a theory, oppose to a wishy washy idea with some bits that can be proved.

GR has been cemented for a long time - it has not been a wishy washy idea for about a century.

To the extent that the basic correctness of GR, combined with certain observational data, imply the 'Big Bang' and a universe that is billions of years old... we know that young earth creationism is false.

Most Christians around the world have already made their peace about that. But some still cling to error.

 

[Ronald]

As to the question of how we could measure time. Granted we knew that the combined destruction of all celestial bodies and clocks were to happen. I would imagine we would make a light based clock, one that can calculate the exact velocity of light, count how many reflections would happen in X amount of time and go from there. Or if we do not have time to make such device, we wouldn't have time that we could measure or run off of, unless we made a gravity based clock. Also, time and space-time are not the same thing.

The reason I asked is that in a 1000 years or so, we won't have a sun, moon or stars according to the Bible.
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, The heavens will disappear with a roar (or pass away with a great noise); the elements will be destroyed by fire (other translation says, melt in a fervent heat) and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare." 2 Pet. 3:10
"And then I saw a new heaven and a new earth and the first earth passed away..." Rev. 21:1; "I am making everything new". Rev.21:5; The New Jerusalem is another term for heaven on earth. "The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp."Rev. 21:23; "There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light..." Rev. 22:5
No more night means, the light that only shines on one side of the planet is no longer how things will be.

Given all that, don't concern yourself much with the universe. It was made was us to ponder His glory and awesome power. And if you follow Genesis, in the correct order of events, earth was made first and light on Day 1, then our atmosphere (called heaven) on Day 2, botanicals on Day 3, then the sun, moon and stars on the 4th day. Why would he do it in that order? He knew that men would some day think that this all came about by some Big Bang, that this planet was a result of a cosmic explosion/accident, and so He confounded them and made earth first.

 

[HitchSlap]

The reason I asked is that in a 1000 years or so, we won't have a sun, moon or stars according to the Bible.
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, The heavens will disappear with a roar (or pass away with a great noise); the elements will be destroyed by fire (other translation says, melt in a fervent heat) and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare." 2 Pet. 3:10
"And then I saw a new heaven and a new earth and the first earth passed away..." Rev. 21:1; "I am making everything new". Rev.21:5; The New Jerusalem is another term for heaven on earth. "The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp."Rev. 21:23; "There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light..." Rev. 22:5
No more night means, the light that only shines on one side of the planet is no longer how things will be.

Given all that, don't concern yourself much with the universe. It was made was us to ponder His glory and awesome power. And if you follow Genesis, in the correct order of events, earth was made first and light on Day 1, then our atmosphere (called heaven) on Day 2, botanicals on Day 3, then the sun, moon and stars on the 4th day. Why would he do it in that order? He knew that men would some day think that this all came about by some Big Bang, that this planet was a result of a cosmic explosion/accident, and so He confounded them and made earth first.

Don't worry, the sun will be around in a thousand years, humans probably not, but the sun is indifferent to our plight.

 

[Ronald]

Don't worry, the sun will be around in a thousand years, humans probably not, but the sun is indifferent to our plight.

I will be around to experience that in a 1000 years, Jesus gave me eternal life!

 

[HitchSlap]

I will be around to experience that in a 1000 years, Jesus gave me eternal life!

Ok. And I'm the king of Spain.

 

[Michael]

Hello all!
In not so recent news, Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO) found definite evidence of gravitational waves. This is pretty huge in cementing general relativity (GR) as a theory, oppose to a wishy washy idea with some bits that can be proved. Of course GR is, and potentially will always be, changing.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/we-have-detected-gravitational-waves-we-did-it.7932180/

The LIGO results, though "well accepted" at this point in time, suffer from a complete lack of visual confirmation. GR theory however was already pretty well supported even prior to LIGO.

Now, the topic i would like to discuss, and potentially get a bit more understanding on, is how does a non-linear space-time and GR fit in with a Christian world view. As most of society and most Christians are taught, time is a constant that never changes and will always flow in one direction.

Where exactly are we "taught" that? Time does still move in one direction in GR, forward.

I'm with Leslie on this issue. I don't see how or why this is of any consequence as it relates to Christianity.

 

[Ronald]

Ok. And I'm the king of Spain.

Darwin and his homeboys are about to receive a big slap in the face, Hitch!

 

[HitchSlap]

Darwin and his homeboys are about to receive a big slap in the face, Hitch!

Empty threats, as it's been 157 years and counting...

 

[David Domshy]

@essentialsaltes, GR's general idea and the basics are stable, but the more complected things have been changed.

@Michael Time cannot be represented as a straight line. This is evident by time dilation. For example, as an object speeds up, it's time slows down, according to a stationary outside observer. Now according to the moving object, the stationary object's time speeds up. Now to get weird, an object is traveling as the speed of light experiences no time until it interacts with another object. For example a photon. In "the eyes" of a photon, it will experience the whole life of the universe in an instant, granted it is in a complete vacuum. There is a theoretical way of traveling back in time, if you can achieve faster than light travel. Of course that is only theoretical, but this will show that time isn't linear. And if you are wondering where my education is coming from, i do not have a formal education in this matter, but I taught myself. And yes, i do not have a PHD, nor a high school diploma (yet), but i usually know what i am talking about.

I wouldn't want to start to far on the end times, because that is for another time.

 

[lesliedellow]

@essentialsaltes, GR's general idea and the basics are stable, but the more complected things have been changed.

@MichaelFor example, as an object speeds up, it's time slows down, according to a stationary outside observer. Now according to the moving object, the stationary object's time speeds up.

If two observers are in motion relative to one another, they both perceive time to be passing more slowly for the other observer than it is for themselves.

By the way, essentialsaltes is a physicist.

 

[David Domshy]

yea, i way over complicated that.... Thanks.
Really, and i hope i do not sound too childish when saying this, cool.

 

[MrSpikey]

how does a non-linear space-time and GR fit in with a Christian world view

I'm assuming I'm not reading this correctly, but for me this implies - do you think the Christian world view embraced a linear spacetime, and if so, what does that actually mean?

 

[timewerx]

Now, the topic i would like to discuss, and potentially get a bit more understanding on, is how does a non-linear space-time and GR fit in with a Christian world view. As most of society and most Christians are taught, time is a constant that never changes and will always flow in one direction. Then science came a long and proved that it doesn't work that way.

My OH My.... I'm very very surprised with what you're saying there!!

If Christians don't believe in a non-linear time, then they shouldn't believe the Bible also!!

The Bible contains a lot of prophecies of the future. Whoever penned them must have seen the future or heard from someone who has seen the future. In order for a person to see the future, then future information must have gone back in time OR....In that very moment the witness of the future's mind is in the future while his or her body is at the present. Virtually existing in two points in time simultaneously.

The Bible rests upon the premises of information that traveled in time. It's a self-fulfilling time travel paradox.

As prophet, you can see for yourself how time travel paradoxes work, how knowledge of the future information and actions based upon it would lead to the same future.

Trying to change the future or the past using time travel (physically or virtually) is a very complicated process. It's not dangerous to the Universe nor to any other lifeform. Reality is different from what people know from science fiction.

What has been or will be will always be.... Time travelers and Prophets will always be cemented permanently in the timeline of the Universe. There will never be a time they never existed. They always had. The only danger is to the time traveler and the prophet. Time can be a very seductive master and once it gets hold of you, there maybe no escaping it.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Where to start?

Humanity - not specifically Christianity - has long 'assumed' or understood by conventional wisdom the linear aspect of time. It started 'back then' is happening as we speak and will go on 'up there'. One notes the time dilation effects of general relativity (GR) and the physical dilation of objects due to GR do NOT really become effective until a physical body is moving at close to the speed of light. Which means it isn't all that observable in daily life on Earth.

There is no Christian doctrine demanding a linear time flow. None. Which is not to say there have not been those who mix Christianity and 'stodginess' as interlocked; any 'new' discovery in science MUST be corroborated by a Biblical text - in the mind of the self-appointed Christian referee, of course - in order to be 'real'. Usually it's the same faction who made a living condemning Rock and Roll music.

It is ... a thing we need to consider, ... want to be able to show or tell my future children how GR fits in with a Christian belief. Because space travel, i think, will become apart of our lives in the near future.

Presuming a Christian world view - which is my view - all the laws of the Universe, including General and Special Relativity (and Quantum Mechanics and toast always falls jelly side down) were created, invented, ordained, set in place by God when God began (created) the Universe. Therefore, GR is merely one of those laws; albeit a rather obscure one (from an Earthling's vantage point).

Aside: I don't think space travel is all that imminent, except possibly to our moon. With current technology, it's too far and takes too long to go anywhere 'livable' by human standards. I could easily be wrong; there could be a breakthrough and 'we' (humans) find a 'work around' to offset the limitations of C, AND the limitations of energy usage. I personally have some doubt. My doubt is based on current knowledge of the size of the Universe and restrictions in the areas I mentioned. I do not base my doubts on Christianity or obscure Bible passages.

As for 'fitting it in' to Christianity, I see no need and no problem. One doesn't attempt to 'fit' gravity (or the strong nuclear force, or even cell phones) into Christianity.

I think the main problem will be in normalizing the concept of God into daily existence. Frankly, God is more part of everyday existence on Earth than (the effects of) GR. However, general relativity is demonstrable by observation while God is not - in the same way. (F'rinstance, God doesn't peek around the edge of the Sun during a solar eclipse.)

 

[HitchSlap]

Frankly, God is more part of everyday existence on Earth than (the effects of) GR. However, general relativity is demonstrable by observation while God is not - in the same way. (F'rinstance, God doesn't peek around the edge of the Sun during a solar eclipse.)

God is a part of everything, but it's undetectable? How does that work?