South Africa votes to confiscate white-owned land without compensation

Ana the Ist

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To me it's not about compensation or penalties. It's about adjusting the system so that it is fair to all going forward.

And the dynamic I deal with the most, on this, isn't race but gender... but that'd be a whole off-topic can o'worms. :eek:

What kind of adjustment would you support in Australia? Here in the U.S. we have laws to address things like workplace discrimination, redlining, and segregation. I'm fairly certain Australia has those things as well. This doesn't stop people from occasionally breaking those laws...but nothing ever will.

So what kind of adjustments are you talking about?
 
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bhsmte

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Whatever you might think of race relations in South Africa, this certainly looks like another step towards becoming a failed state. Rampant crime that can't be controlled, a corrupt ex-PM who has stolen tens of millions, a city of roughly half a million people runs out of water and now, farms will likely go the same way as Zimbabwe leading to food shortages

Seeking revenge to settle old scores, typically causes more problems in the end.
 
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Paidiske

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What kind of adjustment would you support in Australia? Here in the U.S. we have laws to address things like workplace discrimination, redlining, and segregation. I'm fairly certain Australia has those things as well. This doesn't stop people from occasionally breaking those laws...but nothing ever will.

So what kind of adjustments are you talking about?

We need more emergency accommodation and longer-term housing support for people with significant mental illness, because right now that's the demographic most represented in long-term homelessness. We also need better provision for mental health care across the board.

We need better and more integrated domestic violence response services, so that security, legal aid, financial services and medical care can be easily accessed safely.

We need better legal and economic frameworks around the process of aging and the transition into supported living; at the moment the aged care sector is so incredibly financially exploitative that people stay out of it to their detriment.

Those are just three issues off the top of my head that I see negatively affecting people in my own parish community. They are not intrinsically about race, but where race has significantly disadvantaged someone, they would help provide a safety net that would provide at least basic support.
 
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Ana the Ist

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We need more emergency accommodation and longer-term housing support for people with significant mental illness, because right now that's the demographic most represented in long-term homelessness. We also need better provision for mental health care across the board.

We need better and more integrated domestic violence response services, so that security, legal aid, financial services and medical care can be easily accessed safely.

We need better legal and economic frameworks around the process of aging and the transition into supported living; at the moment the aged care sector is so incredibly financially exploitative that people stay out of it to their detriment.

Those are just three issues off the top of my head that I see negatively affecting people in my own parish community. They are not intrinsically about race, but where race has significantly disadvantaged someone, they would help provide a safety net that would provide at least basic support.

No offense...but these are more or less just common sense welfare, mental health, or protective services type reforms. They don't really have anything to do with social justice.
I was really asking about what kind of social justice type reforms you would support.
 
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Paidiske

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No offense...but these are more or less just common sense welfare, mental health, or protective services type reforms. They don't really have anything to do with social justice.
I was really asking about what kind of social justice type reforms you would support.

To me, welfare, health service, security for everyone... that is social justice. That's what I was saying about taking too narrow a view of social justice.
 
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Radagast

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leave the Europeans and their land alone. they stole it fair and square.

Not really. In many cases, the Europeans settled on land that was empty, or they purchased it from local chiefs.
 
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MoonlessNight

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To me, welfare, health service, security for everyone... that is social justice. That's what I was saying about taking too narrow a view of social justice.

I see that the Motte is well defended.
 
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Ana the Ist

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To me, welfare, health service, security for everyone... that is social justice. That's what I was saying about taking too narrow a view of social justice.

I see. I think if you generalize it to mean any reform which arguably benefits the public...then the term loses all meaning. The American Revolution? That's social justice. Manifest Destiny? It definitely benefited the American people...so now it's social justice.

I can understand why you'd want to generalize it...doing so let's you claim that those who have less desirable views of social justice don't truly represent it. Redefining words to fit your personal beliefs doesn't change reality though.
 
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Paidiske

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I can understand why you'd want to generalize it...doing so let's you claim that those who have less desirable views of social justice don't truly represent it. Redefining words to fit your personal beliefs doesn't change reality though.

I'm not redefining words.

I happen to be part of a pretty active network of people involved in social justice in all sorts of spheres. Here's a random sample of things hitting my inbox in the last week under the general heading of social justice:

- promotion of a march in support of refugees
- promotion of a women's leadership breakfast
- promotion of a workshop on how religious narratives "may unfold into human stories that can build communities of love and justice"
- correspondence about a Bible study series on "Isaiah's Cry for Justice"
- this article: Lighting the Way: How Pollinate Energy Is Making Money and Doing Good - Social Change Central
- information about a voucher scheme in support of social enterprises, and other grants for those with ideas to make a positive difference in their community
- information about a sustainable investing challenge
- awards for those involved in working towards gender equality and environmental protection
- information about a fellowship in leadership for young people
- a request for stories about ethical/sustainable travel

All of this sits under the broad heading of social justice, and not because I put it there. Those who want to claim social justice is just about race relations or whatever are, as I see it, artificially narrowing a vibrant and diverse field of activism and interest.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I'm not redefining words.

Those who want to claim social justice is just about race relations or whatever are, as I see it, artificially narrowing a vibrant and diverse field of activism and interest.

Well those people are the majority of those who advocate for social justice. I'd argue it's less about race, more about collective guilt and oppression.

If it were as benign as you believe it to be...there wouldn't be many arguing against it.
 
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Radagast

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I suspect the people arguing against it haven't had much involvement in it.

Or they might not agree with your goals (i.e. not think that those goals represent true "justice")

Or they might agree with your goals, but feel that your means are counter-productive (i.e. not think that those means represent true "justice")
 
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durangodawood

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....It definitely benefited the American people...so now it's social justice.....
Thats precisely what social justice means: justice for a population.

As opposed to individual justice: trying a particular criminal, or seeking compensation for a wrong done to you personally.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Thats precisely what social justice means: justice for a population.

I get that...

As opposed to individual justice: trying a particular criminal, or seeking compensation for a wrong done to you personally.

Or we could just call that justice...you know, like we always do.
 
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SolomonVII

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Things haven't changed much since the Ukranian Holodomor. Take the land away from the farmers and people still starve. It is the same story from Zimbabwe to Venezuela.

That is the way of resentment. It has never been about helping the poor, as much as it is about hurting those who are perceived to be better off. People would rather go hungry than to live in a world where people are better than them, in any way.
 
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redleghunter

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I can imagine the enduring resentment of the apartheid decades is proving unstoppable.
That could be. I remember reading in "Cry, the Beloved Country" the main character stated that the day would come the white government would realize their ways were wrong but it would come too late.

Seems such was "prophetic."
 
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redleghunter

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I have relatives farming in South Africa. Now I am wondering if it is too late for them to get out before things get even worse. But I don't know where they would go...
I thought a lot of white South Africans emigrated to your country and New Zealand.
 
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revanneosl

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Sorry, I should have been more clear; I think the people arguing against it because they are defining it narrowly as being about collective guilt/oppression haven't had much involvement in it.

That, and they are terrified that, if actual equality were achieved, women would treat men as badly as men have treated women, and/or black people would treat white people as badly as white people have treated black people.

It's mostly just fear. Fear and an unadmitted conviction of their own superiority.
 
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