Sound reasoning about the regenerate man?

[JonF]

I recently made the claim in one of the threads in the theology section - “Calvinist believe that we naturally desire things pertaining to self, and only the renewed man will desire things of God.” While I think this is a true statement it seems someone always attacks it with, “well before I was a Christian there were times I desired God” or “So no one can ever desire anything Godly before they are saved”. I still say yes. I also remember desiring things of God also before I accepted Christ. But! they were always motivated by self. When I went on one of those high school “mission trips” to Mexico before I was a Christian I certainly didn’t do it to spread the Gospel, or to please Christ. I did it to hang out with a friend, get a trip to Mexico, and get joy from helping other people. I went to church several times before I accepted Christ, but I did that out of fear of hell. I can’t think of single “God centered” thing I did before I accepted Christ that wasn’t really just Jon centered. It seems when unsaved people desire God, what they are actually desiring is a quid pro quo bargain with God, or something self gratifying. Is my reasoning sound?

 

[heymikey80]

It's really tough to tease this out. To me egotism is *one* form of sinfulness, and an extremely prevalent form. But it would be tough to support egotism as a comprehensive attribute of all sin.

Why? Well, because of rhetoric. Almost any thought can be found to be egocentric in some way. So you've probably found it gets into controversy awfully fast when you're in debate with someone! That's because whatever standard you use for egotism, can be denied before your conversion, and applied after your conversion, to show the standard hasn't changed.

It may actually be true, but it's so hard to demonstrate.

This results from a philosophical condition about reasoning in ethics -- it's part of "meta-ethics". Long story short, since ethics is about what *should* happen, trying to appeal to something internal as to what *is* happening is very hard to carry when it comes to ethics. People can challenge the statement. People can try contradicting the assertion. So I've always found I have to get to the bare bones of the ethical problem with humans. Assertions people don't object to.

So if I'm in debate, I always like to bring up C.S.Lewis' proposals:

I know right from wrong.
I don't do right.
​

Often I can tell right from wrong. But I don't always do what I know is right. And even when I'm doing the right thing, I'm often not doing it from the right motive. And even when I have the right motive, I'm not doing it via the right authorities. And even when I'm doing it by the right authorities, I'm often manipulating them the wrong ways ... and so on.

I'm not completely righteous in all (or really any) situations.

Ego is then an easy example to pull out for people challenging this. "Am I doing this because it'll make me feel good about doing something?" Then: wrong motivation.

 

[heymikey80]

The more I meditate on this, the more I feel that your characterization of RT is largely true, though.

Cornelius van Til is well-known for the statement, "There is no alternative but that of theonomy [God's-Law] and autonomy [self-Law]." Neglect for a moment some of the (I think worrisome) theologies that grew around this statement. In effect van Til was saying, "either God says what's right, or I do."

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Jon, RC Sproul talks about this in Chosen by God. People are looking for peace, comfort, security, etc. As Christians, we know these things can only truely come to those in Christ. What we tend to do as Christians, then, is to assume that people are searching for Christ, when what they are really searching for are the benefits that come from being a Christian without actually becoming a Christian.

 

[JonF]

thanks guys will check out the book grinning

 

[calmcoolandelected]

Jon, RC Sproul talks about this in Chosen by God. People are looking for peace, comfort, security, etc. As Christians, we know these things can only truely come to those in Christ. What we tend to do as Christians, then, is to assume that people are searching for Christ, when what they are really searching for are the benefits that come from being a Christian without actually becoming a Christian.

Yes, and the Bible says that before our regeneration we were enemies of God.

CC&E

 

[Jon_]

I recently made the claim in one of the threads in the theology section - “Calvinist believe that we naturally desire things pertaining to self, and only the renewed man will desire things of God.” While I think this is a true statement it seems someone always attacks it with, “well before I was a Christian there were times I desired God” or “So no one can ever desire anything Godly before they are saved”. I still say yes. I also remember desiring things of God also before I accepted Christ. But! they were always motivated by self. When I went on one of those high school “mission trips” to Mexico before I was a Christian I certainly didn’t do it to spread the Gospel, or to please Christ. I did it to hang out with a friend, get a trip to Mexico, and get joy from helping other people. I went to church several times before I accepted Christ, but I did that out of fear of hell. I can’t think of single “God centered” thing I did before I accepted Christ that wasn’t really just Jon centered. It seems when unsaved people desire God, what they are actually desiring is a quid pro quo bargain with God, or something self gratifying. Is my reasoning sound?

Well, technically speaking, this isn't a sound argument, but you're right. What you should really do is support it with Scripture, such as, ". . . the plowing of the wicked is sin" (Prov. 21:4), "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags . . ." (Is. 64:8), and "Everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved" (Jn. 3:20).

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[edie19]

Paul is very clear in his letter to the Romans, as David was before him, there is no one who seeks after God. It doesn't get any more obvious than that. There is no ambiguity in God's words regarding our unregenerate hearts desiring Him.

edie

 

[JimfromOhio]

No matter how ridiculous and scriptural it may be, no matter how these critical Christians who will not without question accept doctrines. They are missing the nature of true Christian faith, for true Christianity is inward, and what is wrong cannot be reached by these external means. Faith is simply bringing Christians' minds into accord with the truth. The Word of God and Faith in God. The Christian of faith walks in confidence in God. God desires and loves to be trusted by His creatures. If zeal indicates godliness, then Christian virtues should be used. God always unites and the devil always divides. It should be easy to find our way around in this confused and confusing world but sin has brought confusion.

In sake of spirit unites while flesh divides, I am going to focus on Christians after God's heart. The concept of the unity of all things written in the Scriptures that God will reconcile all things unto Himself, whether they be things in earth or in heaven in Spirit (not in doctrines). Truth wounds through life's experiences as well as from the Word of God. The truth resolves some difficulties and creates more difficulties. When truth speaks, there is not burdens but rather "The truth shall make you free"; that is, free from the woes, the yokes, the burdens.

One of the problems most frequently encountered by most of us Christians is how to follow the Spirit, in the will of God in a given situation. Because there are concerning decisions which our flesh consult our own preferences as our first priority and then the Word (in Spirit) follows (rather than the other way around).

Many of us have different experiences through the Holy Spirit about important moments of their lives and that therefore, everyone is different. God did not make us as robots but rather each individual souls who makes their own moral choices. Through the Word of god, I have learned great importance of spiritual decision-the act of faith (those who understand the concept of faith) by submitting our entire futures to God. One great example is when Abraham was called, by faith obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. True faith is not the superior ability to visualize unseen things of our temporal future but rather the eternal future and power to trust Christ wherever He leads us. Faith is to be contented and unafraid when going on a journey with Lord Jesus Christ.

Pride (ego) is located in our hearts which is the core, are seated deep within our minds where they pollutes our emotions (desires), the intellect (imaginations) and the will (purposes). It is important to understand that our hearts are the state of our "flesh". Our flesh search for pleasure, pride, passions and selfish motives. Our hearts are like a garden with beautiful flowers and plants. As with all gardens, the hearts must be kept free from weeds and insects. In Proverbs 4:23, "Above all else, guard your heart, for it affects everything you do." (NLT).

Humility is to get rid of pride by submitting to the greatest cost of discipleship is to the old nature, ego, self.