Soulless drones - the fix for Christian soteriology

cloudyday2

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One unappealing feature of Christianity is the belief that only a few will be saved ("the elect") and everybody else will be lost ("the world"). Universalism attempts to fix this problem, but there are plenty of sayings in the gospels that seem to contradict universalism.

So here is another fix - soulless drones. How do I know that you or I actually have a soul? Science seems to suggest that we are automatons and that consciousness is a delusion.

Let's take the parable of the sower. Imagine the soil is a population of billions of soulless human drones with no freewill. Spiritual seeds are scattered randomly and a few of these seeds sprout in their human host. These few humans now have a soul; they have been "born again".

All souls are saved, because every soul must be born through the Christian gospel (the seed)
 
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miknik5

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One unappealing feature of Christianity is the belief that only a few will be saved ("the elect") and everybody else will be lost ("the world"). Universalism attempts to fix this problem, but there are plenty of sayings in the gospels that seem to contradict universalism.

So here is another fix - soulless drones. How do I know that you or I actually have a soul? Science seems to suggest that we are automatons and that consciousness is a delusion.

Let's take the parable of the sower. Imagine the soil is a population of billions of soulless human drones with no freewill. Spiritual seeds are scattered randomly and a few of these seeds sprout in their human host. These few humans now have a soul; they have been "born again".

All souls are saved, because every soul must be born through the Christian gospel (the seed)
If we're soulless drones, where did the spiritual seeds come from?

Maybe one soulless drone had a revelation of more than their soulless self?

And if what happened to even one soulless drone is the truth, and he keeps testifying to this truth, what if those who do not believe his testimony?
 
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cloudyday2

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If we're soulless drones, where did the spiritual seeds come from?

Maybe one soulless drone had a revelation of more than their soulless self?

And if what happened to even one soulless drone is the truth, and he keeps testifying to this truth, what if those who do not believe his testimony?

Thanks for the reply. You misunderstood what I hypothesized in the OP.

Let me try to elaborate. You know you are "born again". At that moment, the seed of the gospel landed in the soil of your soulless material self. Just as a seed consumes soil to produce a living plant, after being "born again" the gospel seed began consuming your material self and producing a soul. Now you have a soul where you did not before. If you fall away from the Christian path, then your soul withers and possibly dies (see the Parable of the Sower).

So a person who was never born again (like myself) does not have a soul. When I die there is no great tragedy, because I never was "real" or "alive" in a spiritual sense anyway. Therefore Calvinism and related theologies seem less arbitrary and unjust. God isn't rejecting any souls with His arbitrary sowing of the gospel seeds. God is creating souls in arbitrarily chosen patches of soil (soulless non-born-again people).
 
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hedrick

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I don't think the suggestion is that everyone is soulless, but those who aren't saved are.

For an interesting parallel, see Philosophical zombie - Wikipedia. The context there is how I know what someone else's experience is. Everyone but me could be a philosophical zombie and I'd have no way of knowing.

I point out that we don't really know the number who are saved. I believe a majority of Christians today are inclusivists. This does not restrict salvation to Christians. Indeed there are official Catholic statements suggesting it could even include atheists.

Jesus was asked how many would be saved, and in my opinion deflected the question. Luke 13:23. My understanding of the answer is that he told the person he should worry about his own salvation.

The thing that suggests a limited number is mostly Mat 7:13 // Luke 13:24.
 
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hedrick

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I should note that William Craig once suggested a related idea, in response to the question of whether it wasn't unfair of God to only save those who had the opportunity to hear the Gospel. He suggested that anyone who might be saved if he heard the Gospel was placed by God into a situation where in fact he heard it.

No, I'm not seriously suggesting that. However I don't believe this forum would permit a full explanation of what I think.
 
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Chesterton

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So here is another fix - soulless drones.
Here's another possible fix - the observer effect in conjunction with retrocausality. Maybe Schrodinger's cat is alive if you believe it is, and dead if you believe it is. "See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil...therefore choose life." Maybe what you believe is what you make real for yourself. Which would mean that you are very important - you are a "little god" - if you choose to believe in goodness it will be real. Or you could believe something else, or nothing, in which case "nothingness" will become your reality.

Belief may be important.
How do I know that you or I actually have a soul? Science seems to suggest that we are automatons and that consciousness is a delusion.
Science does not suggest that. If anything, it suggests that consciousness is real and fundamental, and it creates everything else.
 
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cloudyday2

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Science does not suggest that. If anything, it suggests that consciousness is real and fundamental, and it creates everything else.
You might be right, because my knowledge of QM is limited. I'm not sure I agree though. Spiritual people are always claiming QM supports their ideas. If it was so clear-cut, then the physicists who understand QM would be more spiritual. Some physicists are spiritual, but many are atheists. Also many atheists claim to be "spiritual" when they practice meditation or study Buddhism, so that makes the issue murky.
 
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cloudyday2

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@Chesterton, I wanted to mention a possible problem with your idea in post #6. If my belief causes something to happen and your disbelief prevents this something from happening, then in some cases we can no longer share the same universe.
 
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Silmarien

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So here is another fix - soulless drones. How do I know that you or I actually have a soul? Science seems to suggest that we are automatons and that consciousness is a delusion.

Where did you hear that? There are certainly people like Daniel Dennett who take that stance, but it's not all that common even amongst materialists. I think the current trend is towards treating consciousness as an emergent property.

I do agree with @Chesterton, though. Even from a materialist perspective, what you believe becomes true for you, since our beliefs reshape our brains. Spend your life in contemplation, and God will become a reality to you--whether this is simple brain chemistry or is actually a matter of using your brain as it was intended to be used is not the sort of question science can answer, but there's definitely something going on there.

I want to be a universalist, but I do worry about the spiritual consequences of nihilism. If you've made nothingness your reality, you may just be on a path of self-destruction.
 
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cloudyday2

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Where did you hear that? There are certainly people like Daniel Dennett who take that stance, but it's not all that common even amongst materialists. I think the current trend is towards treating consciousness as an emergent property.
I guess I developed the idea a long time ago by thinking about why I think "I" exist and what "I" am and so forth. The brain explains and rationalizes observations including observations of its own behavior. That creates the abstraction of a soul/consciousness making decisions to achieve goals and so forth, but it doesn't exist. I actually bought Dennett's book "Consciousness Explained", but I gave it to the Salvation Army without getting the chance to read it. Maybe I would have liked it, but it seemed awfully thick and intimidating LOL.

I do agree with @Chesterton, though. Even from a materialist perspective, what you believe becomes true for you, since our beliefs reshape our brains. Spend your life in contemplation, and God will become a reality to you--whether this is simple brain chemistry or is actually a matter of using your brain as it was intended to be used is not the sort of question science can answer, but there's definitely something going on there.
I can't help thinking truth matters. When a person believes in God, that person might waste precious time praying for help or guidance that will never come or will come only as imagination masquerading as a higher wisdom. That can lead to wrong decisions and so forth. I don't agree that science cannot answer the question of God existence. Science already has answered that question. There is no evidence that God exists in spite of searching and hoping for centuries. If we imagine a God that cannot be tested by science, we have a God that is totally irrelevant. For example, if a theist thinks God can give insights through prayer, then that hypothesis can be tested and debunked. Any God worthy of the name can be tested.

I want to be a universalist, but I do worry about the spiritual consequences of nihilism. If you've made nothingness your reality, you may just be on a path of self-destruction.
In my case, I'm too heavily brainwashed to ever fully eradicate my Christian nature. I suppose it is like a tree that grows around an obstruction so that the obstruction can no longer be removed without chopping down the tree.
 
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Dirk1540

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However I don't believe this forum would permit a full explanation of what I think.
Just not in the Christian only sections right? I can't imagine how you would say stuff that would exceed the anti-Christian tones of the non-Christians in here!
 
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hedrick

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Just not in the Christian only sections right? I can't imagine how you would say stuff that would exceed the anti-Christian tones of the non-Christians in here!
I meant this specific forum, not CF as a whole.
 
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hedrick

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Science seems to suggest that we are automatons and that consciousness is a delusion.
Huh? I'm not aware of people saying that consciousness is a delusion. Consciousness is perfectly possible even if we're completely physical. I expect at some point AI's will be conscious.
 
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Silmarien

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I guess I developed the idea a long time ago by thinking about why I think "I" exist and what "I" am and so forth. The brain explains and rationalizes observations including observations of its own behavior. That creates the abstraction of a soul/consciousness making decisions to achieve goals and so forth, but it doesn't exist. I actually bought Dennett's book "Consciousness Explained", but I gave it to the Salvation Army without getting the chance to read it. Maybe I would have liked it, but it seemed awfully thick and intimidating LOL.

The brain can't create an illusion if there's nothing there that can experience said illusion in the first place. To what degree we are consciously making decisions is a different matter, but I don't think you can throw out the reality of consciousness without throwing out everything else too. If we're wrong about the only thing we have direct access to, I see no reason to trust in the existence of the external world, the successes of science, and so forth.

Nothing is real; Vishnu is dreaming the universe. Speaking of which, there were some recommendations I ran across a little while ago concerning issues of selfhood addressed from a Hindu perspective. I haven't had a chance to look at them yet, but you might find them interesting:

I Am That
, by Nisargadatta Maharaj
That Thou Art: The Wisdom of the Upanishads, by Puligandla

I can't help thinking truth matters. When a person believes in God, that person might waste precious time praying for help or guidance that will never come or will come only as imagination masquerading as a higher wisdom. That can lead to wrong decisions and so forth.

Did you know that Jacques Derrida was a man of prayer? He was something of an Augustinian almost-atheist--someone who saw religion as a way of embracing mystery, of being involved in the world, instead of being strictly about the supernatural.

That particular approach is too vague for me, but I don't think time spent being open to the mystery of reality is time wasted. The years I wasted were the ones when I didn't care enough to take these questions seriously.

I don't agree that science cannot answer the question of God existence. Science already has answered that question. There is no evidence that God exists in spite of searching and hoping for centuries. If we imagine a God that cannot be tested by science, we have a God that is totally irrelevant. For example, if a theist thinks God can give insights through prayer, then that hypothesis can be tested and debunked. Any God worthy of the name can be tested.

Science has never been about searching and hoping for evidence of God's existence--it's always been a matter of better understanding the natural world. I'd say that both its successes and the areas where it struggles to provide answers are really interesting theologically.

One book I just started reading is Mariano Artigas's The Mind of the Universe. Science really does provide strong grounds for belief in God, though not at the empirical level.
 
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Silmarien

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Huh? I'm not aware of people saying that consciousness is a delusion. Consciousness is perfectly possible even if we're completely physical. I expect at some point AI's will be conscious.

Oh, yes. There are philosophers out there like Daniel Dennett and Alex Rosenberg who take this approach. Even you'd like a taste of the madness, check out something like The Atheist's Guide to Reality. It's all quite wild.

I'm actually convinced that consciousness is impossible from a strictly physicalist perspective. (Though I assume you're thinking more in terms of a biblical physicalism than the modern version?) Agnostic about AI, though if it happens, it'll rule out a handful of theories for good.
 
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cloudyday2

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Huh? I'm not aware of people saying that consciousness is a delusion. Consciousness is perfectly possible even if we're completely physical. I expect at some point AI's will be conscious.
If software is programmed to function similarly to the human brain then it will also develop the delusion of being conscious IMO. The key is that the software must be incapable of predicting its own behavior. This leads to the software's rationalization that there is a consciousness with freewill and so forth.

I think it might be possible someday for a computer to simulate a human with enough precision to predict every "decision" made by that human and therefore demonstrate that humans are strictly material automatons.
 
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cloudyday2

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The brain can't create an illusion if there's nothing there that can experience said illusion in the first place.
What does it mean to experience a delusion? Basically the brain has algorithms with abstractions that predict the future from the past. The brain is incapable of modeling its own behavior as a biological mechanism, so it utilizes the abstraction of a non-material consciousness with motivations making choices that are transmitted to the material body. It's almost impossible for our brains to think without these abstract delusions. ... So I don't think a real consciousness is necessary for delusion.

Nothing is real; Vishnu is dreaming the universe.
One thing I noticed in the Bhagavad Gita is certain verses that suggest humans are merely automatons. Consciousness seems to be a single universal Brahman that periodically forgets its universality while observing and empathizing with individual human automatons. Enlightenment is for that consciousness to regain its wider perspective. (That's my interpretation FWIW)
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I agree with @Silmarien in that I cannot see how, from a strict materialist viewpoint, consciousness is even possible. For everything would be wholely dependant on membrane potentials upheld by sodium and potassium exchange in neurons, which are determined by oncotic pressure, osmolality, membrane channels, etc. It would be very complex, but determined by previous situations within the brain and by external stimuli. There is no way that I can see, for it to arise, so consciousness would be a delusion of autonomous brain processing then.
Some form of negative feedback loop would be required to learn from past behaviour or determine action - not dissimilar to the immunological defence mechanisms or homeostatic control mechanisms. This is perfectly possible, although not even close to being found as of yet, but this cannot entail conscious thought or free action as such.

This would be the position of AI as well. There is a reason people espouse the Turing test, as that is the only way we would be able to affirm 'consciousness'. If it appears conscious from our subjective sense, we assume it is - but we haven't shown it to be, nor determined a physical way it may be. Complex programming would certainly be able to fool us, even to allow programmes to make novel changes or adapt to circumstance, but that hardly equates to 'Consciousness' as such.

The Emergent Property argument I find even more fuzzy. It is a cop-out, to say we can't explain how it is possible materially, or even a broad outline how it may do so, but because it is present, it must do so. This is at best wishful thinking, at worst a petitio principii.
I find it strange too that they are so ready to ascribe emergent properties to organised systems of electrical discharges and potential changes in brains, but would completely dismiss it in far more complex electromagnetic systems, like the Sun. If consciousness is an emergent property of neural physiology, then I see no reason why we can't conclude the Sun to be conscious as well. That is the danger when reaching conclusions based purely on preferred suppositions.

People are willing to go far beyond our data on this question, for some reason. To give some perspective, we can't even explain how breathing is controlled, let alone complex ideas like consciousness. We have located medullary and pontine respiratory centres, that if damaged stop spontaneous breathing, with some sort of pacemaker ability (how exactly we don't know). We know central and peripheral chemoreceptors modulate breathing, via partial pressures of oxygen and carbondioxide and pH. However we cannot even explain in what way we increase respiratory rate during light exercise, where partial pressures are unaltered and lactic acidosis has not yet set in; nor how anaesthetic volatile agents depress volumes and rate of breathing. This is a simpler system - we know where the respiratory centres are, we know how all the nerves run, we know how breathing occurs with pressure changes in the chest, yet we cannot more than superficially explain that. Now people want to tackle something as complex as human consciousness, our very selves, on such limited understanding and frankly guesswork of which nerve is associated with what. It seems silly indeed. This remains a philosophic enquiry, as our physiological understanding is not even close to shedding much light on this.

To the OP: @cloudyday2, my wife has proposed something similar to me in the past. That some people are born without souls, that are mere automatons.
The idea that no one has one, but it is only created later through faith, has too much of an autosoteriological bent for my liking.
If we adopt the idea of 'living nephesh' vs 'dead nephesh' and a 'ruach' of the OT, a plausible defence for it could be given, as even your use of the parable of the Sower is quite ingenious. It does throw up as many problems as it solves, such as if the soulless would be my "neighbour", be moral agents, or be anything more than animals. It directly contradicts centuries of moral teaching and could easily be manipulated into an Us vs Them mentality, that would allow us to be very clever Devils and excuse quite a lot of egregious acts.
It begs the question of their evil acts being determined by God, or consequences of the Fallen world. It undermines retributive justice, and the concept of the Incarnation. For Christ died for the sins of men, but the concept of sin can only become operative once an existence juxtaposed to God is evident, so how are sins then 'forgiven' on receiving the faith?
No, while interesting, it seems a bit incoherent to my mind, and like all good heresy, undermines Christian Soteriology far more than it fixes a perceived problem with it.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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If software is programmed to function similarly to the human brain then it will also develop the delusion of being conscious IMO. The key is that the software must be incapable of predicting its own behavior. This leads to the software's rationalization that there is a consciousness with freewill and so forth.

I think it might be possible someday for a computer to simulate a human with enough precision to predict every "decision" made by that human and therefore demonstrate that humans are strictly material automatons.
We must be careful of our use of language. @Silmarien said illusion, which you and I then made delusion.
An illusion is a misrepresentation of real stimuli, while a delusion is a fixed false belief - whether based on real data or not.

For an illusion, yes, an observer is most definitely required. You can't misrespresent or misunderstand something if it is not perceived in some way.
How to differentiate a delusion of consciousness from the real thing would be far more problematic, if it even is possible. To be deluded, something must be undergoing the perception of consciousness perhaps, so I don't really know if it isn't self-refuting. Perhaps a delusion of consciousness would be consciousness itself anyway, in a sense. This merely seems to me to illustrate the untenable nature of a materialist origin for consciousness.
 
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Silmarien

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What does it mean to experience a delusion? Basically the brain has algorithms with abstractions that predict the future from the past. The brain is incapable of modeling its own behavior as a biological mechanism, so it utilizes the abstraction of a non-material consciousness with motivations making choices that are transmitted to the material body. It's almost impossible for our brains to think without these abstract delusions. ... So I don't think a real consciousness is necessary for delusion.

You're just attributing concepts that we use for the mind to the brain instead. We are not thinking--our brains are thinking, but they cannot do so without this unaccounted for conjuring trick called consciousness. Are we aware, or is it our brains that are aware? I don't see how awareness can be explained away, so I don't think you solve any of the conundrums of consciousness simply by treating it like some sort of elaborate hologram.

The Emergent Property argument I find even more fuzzy. It is a cop-out, to say we can't explain how it is possible materially, or even a broad outline how it may do so, but because it is present, it must do so. This is at best wishful thinking, at worst a petitio principii.
I find it strange too that they are so ready to ascribe emergent properties to organised systems of electrical discharges and potential changes in brains, but would completely dismiss it in far more complex electromagnetic systems, like the Sun. If consciousness is an emergent property of neural physiology, then I see no reason why we can't conclude the Sun to be conscious as well. That is the danger when reaching conclusions based purely on preferred suppositions.

What do you mean the sun isn't conscious!?


But yeah, I think you'd need to commit to something like panpsychism for emergence to make sense, at least in this context. Not a problem for me, and some of the non-materialist naturalists out there are sniffing around in that direction too, but everyone else is pretty horrified by it.
 
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