soul sleep

[Hentenza]

They are meant for those that actually desire to study, and will come across them through their internet searches. The Holy Spirit leads them, and He knows where His material is.

Others, who do not read them, choose not to do so at their own eternal peril.

So many think that this particular doctrine is of minor consequence, but do not realize they are upon the enchanted grounds of satan, being led further and further into his deceptive spiritisms.

If you allow yourself to think that the dead are incorporeally alive/existing somewheres, contrary to God's word, satan will use it. It will be an open door to your heart/mind left unguarded.

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:14

Brother, all that you have posted here has been debated many times before and most don't agree with SDA eschatology. The bible is explicit that the dead in Christ do not sleep but are with the Lord (see Paul, thief on the cross, etc.). What I would suggest is to cut your posts down to one topic or defense and you will have a much better chance that folks here will engage in the debate.

 

[Florierte Gottes]

...thief on the cross...

[1] The Greek, The English and the placement of a single punctuation, a “comma”: The King James, as other translations, basically share this format in the English, “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43 [KJV], and because of where the comma is placed [which normally would not mean so much if misplaced however] in this sentence in the English, it alters an entire doctrine which is taught from Genesis to Revelation, that being that the “dead” are “them which are asleep” [1 Thessalonians 4:13,15] and do not immediately upon death enter “Paradise”, for they must first be resurrected [Matthew 22:30; Luke 20:35, etc].

The Greek Textus Receptus Stephens 1550 has no such comma or punctuation, as seen here “και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω” Luke 23:43 [Greek] Therefore the text is fully inspired of God [2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21], but in this rare instance the punctuation of the comma, is incorrectly added and placed, even well after this text was written, and is not inspired since it is in disharmony with all that before it and after it. Almost all of the punctuation in the KJV scripture is perfectly fine, though there are a few rare cases, like this one, and in this particular instance seriously contradicts a biblical doctrine if placed where it is.

The comma should actually be after the word “To day” and not before it, like so, “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” How are we to know, just guess, just let it be where I decide it should be, or to make it fit what I believe, or rather should it be placed in a position where it is in perfect unison with all of the rest of the scriptures on this particular doctrine? The latter should be our answer, since according to scripture itself, “...the scripture cannot be broken.” [John 10:35] This I truly believe, and will demonstrate.

Additionally, never should any person seek to hang any doctrine upon the case of a punctuation mark, for scripture is always to be understood in such a manner, “For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:” [Isaiah 28:10]

[2] The context of the other Gospel of John reveals that Jesus did not “ascend” to “Paradise” the day of His death at all, for it is written, “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.” John 20:17

This text in context just eliminated any possibility for the comma to be placed before the word “To day”. What Jesus was saying to the thief upon the cross, is that though Jesus did not look like a King with a Kingdom, He indeed was, and that if only the thief would believe His words “thou shalt be with me in Paradise”, he would be resurrected in the First Great Resurrection “at the last day” [John 6:39,40,44,54, 11:24], even “at that day” [2 Timothy 4:8]. Jesus, in opposition to what looked like circumstances unto an eternal end, yet He says to the thief, “Verily, verily I say unto thee to day...”, as in right now, this moment, 'I speak to you the truth'.

It is like unto what we find here, “For he [is] our God; and we [are] the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,” [Psalms 95:7; see also Hebrews 3:7,15, 4:7], for Jesus is saying, 'Believe my words to day...' and 'have faith in my word this moment' and 'trust me now', even as it is written, “(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)” [2 Corinthians 6:2]

[3] Another point to consider, is that Luke is the only one which records these words “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee* To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43 [KJV], and therefore, before any conclude to utilize this text in favor of the erroneous “immortal soul/spirit” theology, ought to consider more context on the whole.

Especially since Luke says, “Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,” [Luke 1:1]; “Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;” [Luke 1:2]; “It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,” [Luke 1:3]; “That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.” [Luke 1:4] Therefore let us be circumspect and very careful, not to fall into the trap of those which “wrest” [2 Peter 3:16] the scriptures, or as those which “corrupt the Word of God” [2 Corinthians 2:17] as do others. It would be quite dangerous to simply take a single text and claim it proves any doctrine, for a board with one nail in it, will spin all around, but a board with several nails through will be stable. Therefore, we need to consider this texts with the context which surrounds it and those events, otherwise we would be as satan which only quotes certain portions of any text or context [Matthew 4:6].

[4] According to the various man-made traditions and creeds of Roman Catholicism and others, Christ Jesus did not go to “Paradise” that day either, but rather they say that he [Christ, in a Platonic Dualism] “descended into hell” [which is completely unscriptural, but that is for another time and topic] and it was not until the “third day” that he arose, and finally “ascended” into heaven. This creates a serious theological conundrum and contradiction for any which believe this, if they also think that Luke 23:43 says Christ Jesus entered “Paradise” that same day he died. Others attempt to redefine “Paradise” into a type of 'limbo', but even in this, it still contradicts.

We may see this from several Roman Catholic Online sources, such as Thomas Aquinas “Summa Theologica”, Third Part, Question 52; Article 4, Reply To Objection 1 [and throughout, having both the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur]

“Reply to Objection 1. When Christ descended into hell He delivered the saints who were there, not by leading them out at once from the confines of hell, but by enlightening them with the light of glory in hell itself. Nevertheless it was fitting that His soul should abide in hell as long as His body remained in the tomb.”

or we may see it from the “Creed of Aquiliea” “Descendit ad inferna; tertia die resurrexit a mortuis (He descended to hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead); Ascendit in cœlos; sedet ad dexteram Patris; (He ascended to the heavens; he sits at the right hand of the Father)”

or considering the “Apostles Creed”, it clearly states that Jesus was not “caught up to Heaven” until after the “third day”; “T” Apostles Creed “...(5) He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; (6) He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; ...”

or considering the “Nicene Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus that he, “...suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven...”

or considering the “Athanasian Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus, “...Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven...”

 

[Florierte Gottes]

...thief on the cross...

[5] “Paradise” is actually the “Garden of God” in “the city” “of God”, wherein is “the Throne of God” in the “third Heaven”, where God the Father rules, from where Jesus came from and from which Lucifer was cast out of, by scripture:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:32

It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 12:1

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:2

And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: ) 2 Corinthians 12:3

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:4

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22:2

Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Ezekiel 28:13

13en th trufh tou paradeisou tou qeou egenhqhs pan liqon crhston endedesai sardion kai topazion kai smaragdon kai anqraka kai sapfeiron kai iaspin kai argurion kai crusion kai ligurion kai acathn kai amequston kai crusoliqon kai bhrullion kai onucion kai crusiou eneplhsas tous qhsaurous sou kai tas apoqhkas sou en soi af¢ hs hmeras ektisqhs su Ezekiel 28:13 LXX

Jesus did not enter into “Paradise” until after He was resurrected and arose from death “the third day” according to the scriptures, this being His first ascension back into Heaven, the other at the Mount of Olives [Acts 1:9; Revelation 12:5], after 40 days [Acts 1:3], 10 days before Pentecost, the 50th Day [Leviticus 23:16] in exact fulfillment of the Biblical Types and Prophecy given in the OT [unto Moses and Aaron]. Let us see this.

[6] Jesus was dead and in the Tomb, resting in the sleep of death upon the 7th Day, the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, for even in death He is perfect, for he not going anywhere, as it is written, “...he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.” [Job 21:32], until after His resurrection, for He must of necessity fulfill the scriptures:
Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Matthew 27:63

He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. Matthew 28:6

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. John 10:17

I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:18

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; Revelation 2:8

[7] Christ Jesus did not lead “captivity captive”[the “firstfruits” 1 Corinthians 15:20,23, the “wavesheaf” Leviticus 23:10-12; see Matthew 27:52-53] until His own Resurrection, “the third day” [Luke 24:21], “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.” Ephesians 4:8

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

The English word “coming” in the Greek is “parousia” “παρουσία” and means “presence, the advent, the coming, the arrival, the future visible return of Jesus from Heaven to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the Kingdom of God” [Strong's Concordance] [See Matthew 24:37 and compare to Luke 17:26,30].

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Notice, not individually as any die, but all “together” being alive and others with them made alive in a resurrection [Biblical exceptions, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, special group of “saints” around Jerusalem at Jesus own resurrection, each playing a specific part in typology, there are no other Biblical exceptions].

The same word can be viewed in many other passages: [Matthew 24:3,27,37,39; 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 10:10; Philippians 1:26, 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,9; James 5:7-8; 2 Peter 1:16, 3:4,12; 1 John 2:28].

There are also many other words that also describe Jesus' visible, physical, audible, tumultuous, glorious, triumphant and literal return at His appointed time:
“to come and/or arrive” “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι” [Matthew 24:30, 26:64; John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 11:26; Revelation. 1:7],

“to appear visibly” “optanomai” “ὀπτάνομαι” [Hebrews 9:28],

“to return” “analyō” “ἀναλύω” [Luke 12:36],

“to reveal” “apokalypsis” “ἀποκάλυψις” [2 Thessalonians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7; Luke 17:29-30],

“to manifest” “epiphaneia” “ἐπιφάνεια” [1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:13],

“make manifest” “phaneroō” “φανερόω” [1 Peter 5:4],

“come” “hēkō” “ἥκω” [Revelation 2:25],

“to return” “hypostrephō” “ὑποστρέφω” [Luke 19:12].

[8] Jesus is specific about how anyone which dies, is to enter into Heaven, “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.” [John 14:3], and that word “come” is the Greek “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι”. Death is an enemy, not a friend [1 Corinthians 15:26], for it has a sting, which will one day be no more, and it was not until after the Resurrection of Christ Jesus, that He “...hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” [2 Timothy 1:10].

[9] The thief specifically stated this: "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." Luke 23:42, which is the context of Luke 23:43, and we know that Jesus has not yet received that Kingdom, for He does not yet sit upon the Throne of Glory:

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Matthew 25:31

Jesus went to go receive the Kingdom, and went into that Far Country, 3rd Heaven. He is not yet married unto it.

He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. Luke 19:12

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Daniuel 7:13

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:14

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelaton 22:17

The number of His Kingdom is not made up yet, but soon it will be.

See also: Isaiah 61:10, 62:5; Matthew 21:33, 25:14; Mark 12:1; Luke 20:9

Especially Read Matthew 25 and the Ten Virgins.

 

[Florierte Gottes]

...Paul...

Already shown what Paul said, in several instances, for instance:

2 Corinthians 5:8

t7787336-32/#post64508752

and so on, like:

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1 Thessalonians 4:13

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1 Thessalonians 14:4

It speaks of the resurrection, in the context of Jesus own, that like as His, so too ours at the "last day", not before. And the latter portion in context reveals that He will bring these sleeping ones with Him back to Heaven once He comes an awakens them and resurrects them, in the glorious 2nd Advent and glorious return unto the Father.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Paul understood the Scriptures on this, even as Job already stated it.

Paul also knows of David's sleep:

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Acts 13:36

Paul speaks of the "unclothed", person in 2 Corinthians 5:4 and states that we do not desire the "unclothed", dead/sleeping.

 

[Florierte Gottes]

...The bible is explicit that the dead in Christ do not sleep but are with the Lord...

Nothing but apriori assertions, since all of the texts brought forward are already addressed exegetically.

 

[Florierte Gottes]

...What I would suggest is to cut your posts down to one topic or defense and you will have a much better chance that folks here will engage in the debate.

I think not. Since all I have seen from the opposition is to merely cite an isolated text or texts, and leave, as if that is an exegetical position to stand upon. Those positions do not even attempt to justify those texts, they just merely assert them as verifying their position without even bothering to look at them in context or exegetically or in harmony with all of Scripture, or what it would mean to the Gospel of Jesus Christ or to Jesus Christ Himself. They would rather promote the universal pagan idea of an immortal soul/spirit theology. Buddhism, Hinduism, Occultic, Ancestor Worship, Greek Platonic Dualism, and and so on, each and all believe it and they have not a shread of Scripture for it, but merely assert it from 'experience', or 'a work apart from scripture', like philosophical, teleological, and so on.

 

[Florierte Gottes]

What good is the death of Christ Jesus, the great loving sacrifice to pay the penalty, and to die, that we might have eternal life, if we already had it anyway?

Waste of time, waste of blood.

What good is the resurrection if those which die in Jesus are already in Heaven enjoying it?

Btw, how do you enjoy something as real as heaven, with real beings, and a real God, without appendages, a mind, eyes, ears, etc?

Please describe this bodyless nothingness, in terms we may all understand, what do we smell with, taste with, feel with, hear with, see with with, think with, sit with, and so on?

 

[Lion King]

 

[Florierte Gottes]

... fear of wall 'o' text photo ...

Are the Biblical scriptures a wall 'o' text also? I mean Jesus spoke for several chapters in certain locations of the Gospels. Ecclesiastes is a pretty big book, and what about Psalms 119, or Isaiah?

Do you think atheists think the same thing about the Bible when it comes to all of the text? Must seem pretty daunting, at least until one begins to read, portion by portion.

What about worthless novels, magazines, newspapers, journals of jargon, and 2 hour movies of filth, violence, sexual content, foul language, graphic imagery, or filthy musical content listened to for hours on end or sports and video games that are played and read and listened to endlessly?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I know, right?!

I came on this thread because I'm really interested in this topic, but yeesh, I'm leaving now. Be back when there's actual discussion again.

(By the way, LK, I know I left a post of yours in reply to me hanging in some other thread. Been busy and lost track of where it was. If you want to continue that over PM I'd be happy to.)

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Are the Biblical scriptures a wall 'o' text also? I mean Jesus spoke for several chapters in certain locations of the Gospels. Ecclesiastes is a pretty big book, and what about Psalms 119, or Isaiah?

Do you think atheists think the same thing about the Bible when it comes to all of the text? Must seem pretty daunting, at least until one begins to read, portion by portion.

What about worthless novels, magazines, newspapers, journals of jargon, and 2 hour movies of filth, violence, sexual content, foul language, graphic imagery, or filthy musical content listened to for hours on end or sports and video games that are played and read and listened to endlessly?

The difference is that you're not actually using the text to mount an argument. You're just saying "look at the structure of Revelation" and then posting half the book. Why don't you just reference the text in parentheses and take us through the structure- most importantly, how the structure overrides any literal interpretation of the souls under the altar.

And please do, because I'm more interested in soul sleep than most. But your walls of text just aren't helpful to making your case. We've all read the text before.

 

[Florierte Gottes]

The difference is that you're not actually using the text to mount an argument. You're just saying "look at the structure of Revelation" and then posting half the book. Why don't you just reference the text in parentheses and take us through the structure- most importantly, how the structure overrides any literal interpretation of the souls under the altar.

And please do, because I'm more interested in soul sleep than most. But your walls of text just aren't helpful to making your case. We've all read the text before.

Actually I did use the text:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7787336-34/#post64509347

The structure of Revelation was another post altogether. Additionally, you will find nowhere that I posted "half the book" of Revelation.

In the following post, http://www.christianforums.com/t7787336-34/#post64509188 in regards to Revelation, I posted outright 4 whole verses of Revelation, while citing other passages therein. Therefore, please let us not exagerate.

As you are Lutheran, why not read what Luther already proved upon the point, just ask him:

http://biblelight.net/luther-tyndale.htm

Martin Luther:

Martin Luther and William Tyndale on the State of the Dead.

"...Protestants denied the Catholic purgatory. Luther taught mortality of the soul, comparing the sleep of a tired man after a day's work whose soul "sleeps not but is awake" ("non sic dormit, sed vigilat") and can "experience visions and the discourses of the angels and of God", with the sleep of the dead which experience nothing but still "live to God" ("coram Deo vivit").[4][5][6][7] ..." - Intermediate state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"..."so the soul after death enters its chamber and peace, and sleeping does not feel its sleep" (Commentary on Genesis – Enarrationes in Genesin, 1535–1545).[36]

... However, the best known advocate of soul sleep was Martin Luther (1483–1546).[95] In writing on Ecclesiastes, Luther says

Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awoken, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.[96]​

Elsewhere Luther states that

As soon as thy eyes have closed shalt thou be woken, a thousand years shall be as if thou hadst slept but a little half hour. Just as at night we hear the clock strike and know not how long we have slept, so too, and how much more, are in death a thousand years soon past. Before a man should turn round, he is already a fair angel.[97]" - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

Martin Luther on the State of the Dead - YouTube


[Wikipedia; "Annihilationism"] - Annihilationism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Wikipedia; "Conditional Immortality"] - Christian conditionalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Wikipedia; "Soul Death"] - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Wikipedia; "Christian Mortalism"] - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Yes, I know that Luther favored soul sleep. That's why I said I was more interested than most. But I'm wondering about your actual argument.

 

[Florierte Gottes]

Yes, I know that Luther favored soul sleep. That's why I said I was more interested than most. But I'm wondering about your actual argument.

Ok brother, tell you what, perhaps this may help, a video presentation on the Souls Under The Altar by Pastor Stephen Bohr, rather than a lengthy post:

10/12. The Souls Under the Altar - Misunderstood Texts on the State of the Dead - Stephen Bohr - YouTube

This presentation will be very clear.

 

[Stryder06]

The body of the deceased is in the casket the soul and personality of the one's whose body is in the casket is in heaven or elsewhere until the day of Judgement.

Where does the bible say this?

 

[Stryder06]

The posts to Stryder06 include a number of passages that teach that as far as God is concerned the "dead" who are faithful are alive.

This is only true if you discount the texts I showed you where God says that the dead are asleep/resting.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

For the Orthodox Christian, physical death is the beginning of a spiritual journey, one that a liturgically 'trained' soul will find less difficult to navigate.

In fact, one of the primary reasons we worship together on earth in The Divine Liturgy is to train the soul what to do, and what is acceptable after death when our temptations will be put to the test.

To make it to our destination we will need to get past our own failings and follow the narrow path. Most of us will be 'tempted' into holding onto earthly things, lusts etc. and miss the entrance.

For the Orthodox Christian... being damned to hell, with few exceptions, 'is' having put ourselves there.

The scriptures hold many examples of activity by souls who have departed this life. Yes they are revelation and parables, and we as Christians do not believe for one instance that Christ God would use a false story or a story with a false element to teach.

These are the teachings of the Orthodox Churches. When we find others teaching something different we know that they are preaching another Gospel. Something other than 'the Christian truth'.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Stryder06]

For the Orthodox Christian, physical death is the beginning of a spiritual journey, one that a liturgically 'trained' soul will find less difficult to navigate.

In fact, one of the primary reasons we worship together on earth in The Divine Liturgy is to train the soul what to do, and what is acceptable after death when our temptations will be put to the test.

To make it to our destination we will need to get past our own failings and follow the narrow path. Most of us will be 'tempted' into holding onto earthly things, lusts etc. and miss the entrance.

For the Orthodox Christian... being damned to hell, with few exceptions, 'is' having put ourselves there.

The scriptures hold many examples of activity by souls who have departed this life. Yes they are revelation and parables, and we as Christians do not believe for one instance that Christ God would use a false story or a story with a false element to teach.

These are the teachings of the Orthodox Churches.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

You keep saying "orthodox" as if that's supposed to make a difference in what one believes. You act as if the only example in the scripture about what happens at death is the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Parables are made up stories meant to teach a lesson. That's why they're called parables.

If you live on after dying, than that makes God a liar. I don't see why this little tidbit of information is glossed over. Satan said "Ye shall not surely die..." How do you reconcile that?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You keep saying "orthodox" as if that's supposed to make a difference in what one believes. You act as if the only example in the scripture about what happens at death is the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Parables are made up stories meant to teach a lesson. That's why they're called parables.

If you live on after dying, than that makes God a liar. I don't see why this little tidbit of information is glossed over. Satan said "Ye shall not surely die..." How do you reconcile that?

argumentum ad nauseam.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[shturt678]

This is only true if you discount the texts I showed you where God says that the dead are asleep/resting.

MC didn't discount the Context of the Texts, eg, Insignificant me: Rev.20:4 only for starters again.

Immediately after one passes on, awakes somewhere in his personality, ie, not as some spirit floating around where we have good memories of.

Just ol' old Jack