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soul sleep

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by jsimms615, Nov 13, 2013.

  1. yes

  2. No

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  1. Florierte Gottes

    Florierte Gottes Member

    Yes, Jesus died and was buried, not seeing corruption, and was raised. However, the term sheol, neither hades, gehenna and so on has nothing to do with disembodied spirits, or incorporeal essences, aetheral airy phantasms, as both Ephesians and Peter show.

    Jesus went into the lower parts of the earth {see also Psalms 63:9, 86:8, 139:16; Isaiah 44:23; Ezekiel 26:20 and so on}, being buried in an earthen, rocky tomb, sealed with a rock, shut away from all light.

    And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Isaiah 53:9

    And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed. Matthew 27:50

    He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. Matthew 28:6

    Let us consider more closely what Peter taught in his epistles.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
  2. Florierte Gottes

    Florierte Gottes Member

    Before we move into these texts [1 Peter 3:1-22], let us look even further back into the context to see what Peter believes:

    Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1 Peter 1:3

    To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 1 Peter 1:4

    Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:5

    Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 1 Peter 1:6

    That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 1:7

    What do we immediately notice that Peter believes?

    [1] That we are “begotten … again unto a lively [living] hope...”, and what is this “lively hope”, not that we actually have the inheritance realized, but that we are actively and still hoping for it to be realized, and this “lively hope”, will be realized in the “resurrection … from the dead” and not before, even as Paul says, “Henceforth [from this point forward in time] there is [currently] laid up [reserved, even as Peter says] for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day [the Day of the Lord]: and not to me only, but unto all them [which currently sleep in Jesus in the dust of the earth, or are then alive and changed instantly, from mortality to conditional immortality] also that love his appearing [2nd Advent, when the Lord blows the trumpet and calls the dead to life and immortal bloom [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18]].” [2 Timothy 4:8]

    [2] Peter says that this “lively hope” that we have comes through, or is by “...the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” and therefore we do not inherently have an immortal anything, but it is only “...brought life and immortality to light...” [2 Timothy 1:10] through Christ's resurrection “...from the dead.” which is even preached in the “gospel”.

    [3] Notice that it is an “...inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away...”, but do we now possess it 'in hand'?, or rather as Peter says that it is a “lively hope” [for if we are still hoping, it is not yet present, but future], even “...reserved in heaven for you”. What does it mean to be “reserved”? It means to be held in another's possession until such time as it is to be given unto us in actuality, but for the moment it is promised of God, and it is He [Jesus] which holds it.

    [4] Peter clearly states that for the moment we are “...kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation...”, and therefore notice that it is “through faith unto salvation”, and not merely salvation without condition [“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Matthew 24:13; see also Mark 13:13]. We all have the choice to continue or not continue to walk with Christ Jesus [John 6:66], and that choice is never to be taken away, not even in all eternity [more on this later if necessary].

    [5] Peter says that this “salvation” is “...ready to be revealed in the last time.” and is therefore not yet here, but future still, for we, even as he, await Christ Jesus coming in the clouds of glory with all His holy angels, “revealed in the last time” [“revealed”; see also Matthew 10:26; Luke12:2, “...in the day when the Son of man is revealed.” Luke 17:30; “...the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire ...” 1 Corinthians 3:13, even in that day when the man of sin is revealed [2 Thessalonians 2:3-8]; “...a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed.” 1 Peter 5:1], which is the Day of the Lord, the 2nd Advent.

    That word “revealed” - “apokalyptō” “ἀποκαλύπτω” has many other complimentary partners in the Scripture which all speak of the same events:

    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1 Corinthians 15:23).

    The English word “coming” in the Greek is “parousia” “παρουσία” and means “presence, the advent, the coming, the arrival, the future visible return of JESUS from Heaven to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the Kingdom of GOD” [Strong's Concordance] [See Matthew 24:37 and compare to Luke 17:26,30].

    The same word can be viewed in many other passages: [Matthew 24:3,27,37,39; 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 10:10; Philippians 1:26, 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,9; James 5:7-8; 2 Peter 1:16, 3:4,12; 1 John 2:28].

    There are also many other words that also describe Jesus' visible, physical, audible, tumultuous, glorious, triumphant and literal return at His appointed time:

    “to come and/or arrive” “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι” [Matthew 24:30, 26:64; John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 11:26; Revelation. 1:7],

    “to appear visibly” “optanomai” “ὀπτάνομαι” [Hebrews 9:28],

    “to return” “analyō” “ἀναλύω” [Luke 12:36],

    “to reveal” “apokalypsis” “ἀποκάλυψις” [2 Thessalonians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7; Luke 17:29-30],

    “to manifest” “epiphaneia” “ἐπιφάνεια” [1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:13],

    “make manifest” “phaneroō” “φανερόω” [1 Peter 5:4],

    “come” “hēkō” “ἥκω” [Revelation 2:25],

    “to return” “hypostrephō” “ὑποστρέφω” [Luke 19:12].

    All Heaven will be poured out in the Triumphant Great Advent of the Lord, Saviour and God, Christ Jesus, and the Gates will be lifted up again:

    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. [Revelation 22:12]
  3. Florierte Gottes

    Florierte Gottes Member

    [6] Peter uses another related word “revealed” -“apokalypsis” “ἀποκάλυψις” here, “...might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ...” and we may look at both [vs 5 and vs 7] and see that they are speaking of the same events, the 2nd Advent which it is then that the “glory” [vs 7] is known, then we shall be changed and “...shine as the brightness of the firmament … as the stars for ever and ever.” [Daniel 12:3]

    [7] Peter continues in this same thought over and over again, “Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;” 1 Peter 1:13, and so therefore notice that there is a “hope” we must have for something yet future, to be continued with us, “..to the end...” for that “grace”, which will be [future tense, not yet here], “...brought unto you at...”, when shall it be brought? “...at the revelation [same word in vs 5, “revealed”] of Jesus Christ.”, not before.

    [8] When does Peter speak of the “glory” that was given to the Son? It was after the resurrection, “Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.” [1 Peter 1:21], and therefore it will not be until our [the faithful's] respective resurrection that we too shall receive of this “glory”, then no longer having a “lively hope” for it, but in reality then possessing it, having finally reached “the end” by that continued and persevering “faith”.

    [9] Peter is continually speaking of the time frame of this 2nd Advent, “...glorify God in the day of visitation.” [1 Peter 2:12] and “...an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed” [1 Peter 5:1] and “And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.” [1 Peter 5:4].

    Is this consistent with Peter that the dead are dead [asleep] until their respective resurrection, and are not ascended into Heaven? It sure is, even from the very moment of Pentecost, being anointed by the Holy Spirit:

    What did Peter teach on this subject? Let us go to a powerful lesson in Acts 2:

    The Apostle Simon 'Peter' Barjona, filled with the Holy Spirit, raises his voice and begins speaking, teaching and orating. He is not alone in this, for not only is this message signified and approved by the Holy Spirit Himself, he is also surrounded by the other 11 Apostles of Christ Jesus and the remaining Disciples that were with them. The Apostle Simon 'Peter' Barjona then before the crowd in Jerusalem, in a teaching and expounding manner, directly quotes from both the Prophets Joel and King David, as well as from the Psalms.

    Men [and] brethren,
    let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Acts 2:29

    David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Acts 2:34

    And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for
    since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. 2 Peter 3:4

    Good King David, a man after God's own heart, though he had his downfall, is Dead … Buried … not in Heaven … and even moreso his Tomb was still with them all. So says the Apostle Simon 'Peter' Barjona himself by the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures. Ought we then not to believe him? If not, how about the scriptures which agreed with him and others such as Paul and/or Jesus?

    they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts 2:42

    Shall we not want to continue stedfastly in the Apostle's doctrine and fellowship on this subject? What begins to happen if we do not?

    What does Luke [physician/historian] teach and record about the Apostle and Martyr Stephen?

    And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this,
    he fell asleep. Acts 7:60

    What does Paul teach on David, and others who have died previously?

    David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Acts 13:36

    [Paul Agrees with Peter in Acts 2, which agrees with the OT scripture]

    After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present,
    but some are fallen asleep. 1 Corinthians 15:6

    I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1 Thessalonians 4:13

    What did John the Apostle teach by the Holy Spirit in Revelation?

    And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Revelation 14:13
  4. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Supporter

    Hey Jack,

    Here is the Greek for Rev. 6:9.

    Καὶ ὅτε ἤνοιξεν τὴν πέμπτην σφραγῖδα, εἶδον ὑποκάτω τοῦ θυσιαστηρίου τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν ἐσφαγμένων διὰ τὸν λόγον τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ διὰ τὴν μαρτυρίαν ἣν εἶχον.

    And the translation in English (NASB)

    9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

    The highlighted part is the part in question which you state in your post to be tas psuxas but in the Greek it is tas psychas. Tas means "the" and psychas means "soul." The soul is part of the body but it is not the body (somatos) so there is no evidence that the souls (psychas) under the altar in Heaven had bodies (somatos). ;):cool:
  5. Florierte Gottes

    Florierte Gottes Member

    Moving onward, Let us see what Peter says after the verses [1 Peter 3:1-22] we are to consider and thus see what is surrounding them. He continues exhorting to live godly, keeping the Commandments of God through faith, believing His precious promises that we might be partakers of the divine nature, and if such faith is kept unto the end, we shall have an entrance ministered by Jesus and all the Holy angels come with Him to take us back, etc, for he knows that these will be his last words unto them:

    For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:11

    Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know [them], and be established in the present truth. 2 Peter 1:12

    Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting [you] in remembrance; 2 Peter 1:13

    Knowing that shortly I must put off [this] my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 2 Peter 1:14

    Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. 2 Peter 1:15

    [1] When shall we receive this “entrance” [2 Peter 1:11] into the “everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”? Even as Peter said earlier, it is when He shall be “revealed” [1 Peter 1:5,7,13] from Heaven. As of this moment that is what we have this “lively hope” [1 Peter 1:3] of. For though our names are written in Heaven [Luke 10:20; which may, a this time, still be removed and blotted out], we desire to enter there. Peter says that it shall be “...ministered unto [us]...” [2 Peter 1:11], and how so?, by Jesus Christ Himself coming with every single ministering angel [Psalms 68:17, 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Matthew 13:39,49, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31,51, 26:64; Mark 8:38, 13:27; Luke 9:26, 21:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17; Hebrews 1:7; Revelation 1:7, 12:7, etc] in Heaven to come and claim His own [John 14:2-3; Matthew 24:30, 25:31; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26, 21:27; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16; etc], known as the Great Harvest of Wheat [Revelation 14:15] which shall be reaped.

    [2] Peter declares that these shall be some of his very last words to them, as Jesus had revealed to him earlier [vs 14], that Peter was to die, “Knowing that shortly I must put off [this] my tabernacle...” [2 Peter 1:14], and thus speaks of his own “decease” [2 Peter 1:15], greek “exodos” “ἔξοδος”, which means departing, and in context, “departing” from life to go “in[to] the grave” [Job 14:13; Psalms 6:5, 31:17, 49:14, 88:5,11; Ecclesiastes 9:10; John 11:17; further see Genesis 42:38; 2 Samuel 3:32, 19:37; 1 Kings 2:6, 14:13; 2 Kings 22:20; Job 17:13, 21:13,32; Isaiah 38:10, 53:9; etc] and the “return[ing] unto dust” [Genesis 2:7, 3:19, 18:27; Job 4:19, 7:21, 10:9, 17:16, 20:11, 21:26, 34:15, 40:13; Psalms 22:15,29, 30:9, 103:14, 104:29; Ecclesiastes 3:20, 12:7; Isaiah 2:10, 26:19; Daniel 12:2, etc]. Peter understands that his earthly tabernacle, this mortal of his shall be “swallowed up of life” [2 Corinthians 5:4] in the resurrection to come, wherein he shall have been given as a “reward” [Revelation 22:12], for having been a “faithful and wise servant” [Matthew 24:45], a new glorified tabernacle [2 Corinthians 5:2], but that while he is returned unto dust, he is temporarily until such time, “sleepeth/asleep” [John 11:11; 2 Peter 3:4] in the first death without a tabernacle of earth or of heaven, “naked” [2 Corinthians 5:3] in death [not the 2nd death].

    [3] We see that Peter strove with great love in his heart for them, with tender compassionate care and Godly fear, saying that he would “...not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things” [2 Peter 1:12] by several instances of “...putting [them] in remembrance...” [2 Peter 1:13], and again telling them to “...have these things always in remembrance.” [2 Peter 1:15], even though they already “know [them]” [2 Peter 1:12], but so that they would be “...established in the present truth” [2 Peter 1:12] and not “...carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.” [Ephesians 4:14], knowing that “...it is the last time...” [1 John 2:18]; and that “...evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.” [2 Timothy 3:13], because there were already as foretold by Jesus [Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22], “...false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.” [2 Peter 2:1], even these reprobate, “Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.” [2 Timothy 2:8]. Immortal soul/spirit theology destroys the hope of the resurrection, and of what Christ Jesus did upon the Cross, for those which teach it, say that people enter into Heaven [or hell/purgatory for others] as soon as they die, without any need of a resurrection... for even when will the wicked be cast in to the fire, as soon as they die? No. Scripture says, “Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”, which takes place after the Great White Throne Judgment and second Great resurrection [resurrection of damnation; “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished ...” Revelation 20:5(a)], and so “...there was found no place for them.” [Revelation 20:11; Daniel 2:35], not in Heaven, nor on earth [for there will be no more death or grave, for the earth shall be made New].
  6. Florierte Gottes

    Florierte Gottes Member

    [4] For Peter even writes that even the wicked angels [living beings, like unto us but different, “for all flesh in not the same flesh”, one kind and another [more on this later if necessary]] are yet “reserved” unto their rewards/judgments, “...to be reserved unto judgment ...” [2 Peter 2:4] and even the devils know this that their time of punishment is coming, yet future, “...art thou come hither to torment us before the time.” [Matthew 8:29] therefore as Paul says, “Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.” [1 Corinthians 4:5], and while the rebellious angels yet live and are active, the wicked humanity which have died, slumber in the ground, for God knows how “...to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.” [2 Peter 2:9], for that day approaches and is soon is coming according to prophecy, in which they both [wicked angel and wicked mankind] will perish together, depraved Head and Root and diseased body and branches of that corrupt tree, “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” [Malachi 4:1], and in that day, “...to be taken and destroyed … and shall utterly perish in their own corruption.” [2 Peter 2:12] and “And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness...” [2 Peter 2:13], “...to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.” [2 Peter 2:17], to “perish” [John 3:16; 2 Peter 3:9] and without life evermore and they will be made “...a terror, and thou [shalt be] no [more]: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.” [Ezekiel 26:21] and “...thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt be] any more.” [Ezekiel 27:36] and “...shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.” [Ezekiel 28:19].

    [5] Peter knows that even in the last days there will be “scoffers” [2 Peter 3:3], “...Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep...” [2 Peter 3:4] and yet knowing that “...the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” [2 Peter 3:7], for in that day, the Day of the Lord [the 1,000 years, the millennium; the 7th Day with the Lord God, 2 Peter 3:8], “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” [2 Peter 3:10] and “[Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,” [2 Peter 3:11] and “Looking for and hasting untothe coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?” [2 Peter 3:12]

    [6] Peter was looking forward to the New Heaven and the New Earth: “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” [2 Peter 3:13], even so “...seeing that ye look for such things...” [2 Peter 3:14], not looking to be 'unclothed' [death, found 'naked'], but rather “clothed upon” [2 Corinthians 5:2,4].

    Therefore, with even all that which Peter has said what do these texts of
    1 Peter 3:1-22 mean?
    Peter ends this section of his 1st Epistle by saying, "Finally brethren,..." after speaking about those things in 1 Peter 1 - 1 Peter 2 and also about the inward man and not the outward vain adorning, but rather of the chaste and holy conduct of the Christian, especially that which is between man [husband] and wife [1 Peter 3 1-7].

    Peter then goes into a section on this Christian love for one another, to be manifested and witnessed throughout whole Christian body of Christ [1 Peter 3:8-17].

    He finally then sums this all up in Christ Jesus as being the perfect model and example of this love, and re-connects that with the exhortation he previously spoke about in the earlier verses [1 Peter 3:1-17] with the very example of the days of Noah and the Salvation and Judgment seen there. Peter is giving an example of the very thing that Jesus prophesied about:

    "But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." [Matthew 24:37]
    see also Matthew 24:38; Luke 17:2627

    People in Noah's day rioted, and did whatever they pleased, and took whom they wanted, etc [ask about the context of “sons of God” and “daughters of men” and what was happening there]. Noah, who
    "was perfect in his generations" and "walked with god" [Genesis 6:9;p], preached unto them about "righteousness" [2 Peter 2:5], but most of the rest of the world mocked and railed at him, like as others also unto the other prophets [2 Chronicles 36:16; Job 12:4; Mark 12, etc]. So Noah "suffer[ed] for righteousness sake", but was unafraid of their "terror" and of their "speak[ing] evil" of him as an "evil doer", but rather he "found grace in the eyes of the Lord" [Genesis 6:8;p] and "sanctif[ied] the Lord God [in his] heart" and so "suffer[ed] for well doing" while believing God about the coming Judgment of the Flood [Genesis 6:17] which would take everyone away in destruction and thus it was "accounted unto him for righteousnesss" for so acting upon that Faith [James 2].

    So then what do the remaining verses of 1 Peter 3:18-22 actually mean?

  7. Florierte Gottes

    Florierte Gottes Member

    So then what do the remaining verses of 1 Peter 3:18-22 actually mean?

    The passage is not saying that Christ Jesus, while deceased and in the tomb [where "the LORD lay" [Matthew 28:6]], then incorporeally went and preached a sermon to "spirits" [the common worldly defined form of an incorporeal immortal being, ie. 'ghosts of the deceased', etc].

    Jesus was dead, having suffered the Death [the wages for sin], which was ours for us all
    [though we too, our "old man" of "sin" [Romans 6:6;p] must die, and be "crucified with CHRIST" [Galatians 2:20;p] and be "born again" [John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23]], though His "Humanity died: divinity did not die" for GOD, Divinity, is "immortal" [1 Timothy 1:17].So, the Holy Spirit was already working in the "Days of Noah" upon the hearts and minds of men, as He has throughout the scriptures [Genesis 1:2; Numbers 11:29; Job 26:13; Isaiah 48:16; Zechariah 7:12; 1 Corinthians 2:10; Ephesians 3:16; 1 John 4:13; etc]:

    "And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." [Genesis 6:3]

    So now, please notice what Peter is actually recounting of as it had happened in the "days of Noah":

    "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" [1 Peter 3:18]

    "Put to death in the flesh", and "quickend" ["made alive, to produce alive...to cause to live, make alive, give life...to restore life...springing up..."; Greek "zōopoieō" "ζῳοποιέω"; Strong's Concordance, Thayer's Lexicon, Vines Expository, ; "in other words, to make living that which was before dead/without life"] by the Holy Spirit again ["not left in hell [grave]"] into Immortal and Uncorruptible Flesh [for His flesh never having seen corruption; Exodus 16:5,22-36; Psalms 16:10, 49:9; Acts 2:27,32, 13:35,37].

    He [Jesus] was "quickened by the Spirit" [in this text, being Raised by the Holy Spirit; Romans 8:11] and was forever raised as an immortal human man with "Flesh and Bones" [Luke 24:39] so that the disciples could "handle" Him and that He could "eat".Jesus, who spake of the raising of the "Temple of his Body" [John 2:21; Revelation 21:22], was Raised Bodily [John 2:19,21, 20:12; Luke 24:3,6,39,43, etc] unto Immortality as the type of the Uncorrupted Manna in the Wilderness foretold [Exodus 16:5,22-25] and was not floating around somewhere in some "immortalized incorporeal form of man-shade" preaching to other "deceased conscious incorporeals". ...

    "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;" [1 Peter 3:19]

    What is the
    "by which" this event ["went and preached"] was being done?It is "by the Spirit" [being the Holy Spirit], [vs 18].

    Who then is the "He" that was doing this ["went and preached"] by means of the Holy Spirit?It is Jesus ["Christ"], [vs 18], for Jesus was preaching through the Holy Spirit whom He had sent unto Noah to warn the world of the impending Judgment of God and for repentance. Remember “And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.” [Genesis 6:3]? To whom was Noah preaching to in those days then by the Holy Spirit whom Jesus had sent? Deceased 'ghosts' or people who were very much alive and living in sin and rebellion towards God?The text says that the Holy Spirit strove with "man" who is "flesh" which is animated unto life by the spirit of God, having been breathed into him:

    "...My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh..." [Genesis 6:3;p]

    Peter was using a comparison, of then [Noah's Day] and now [his [Peter's] day] and also the end of time] and was revealing that Christ Jesus through the Holy Spirit in the
    "days of Noah" [not in the days of Jesus' death] was preaching the Gospel of Salvation [Genesis 3:15, etc by Noah, the "preacher of righteousness"] to the living humans ["man"] that were then ["in the days of Noah"] "disobediant" to God.The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts of Sin, Judgment and Righteousness [John 16:8], which is why even King David prayed after he had sinned and was "disobedient" ["Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." [Psalms 51:11]].
  8. Florierte Gottes

    Florierte Gottes Member

    Who then are these "spirits in prison" [vs 19] that were being "preached" unto?They were the living human beings [souls, living beings as defined by Genesis 2:7 and throughout] who were in the bonds of iniquity, slaves of sin, bondage of disobedience and bound to Sin, Satan and Self [selfishness and also self-works to earn salvation] as the Bible so defines:

    brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." [Exodus 20:2], see also Deuteronomy 5:6. 6:12, 8:14, 13:10; Judges 6:8; Joshua 24:17

    "And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which
    brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." [Deuteronomy 13:5] [notice also that last part of the text]

    "O LORD, truly I [am] thy servant; I [am] thy servant, [and] the son of thine handmaid:
    thou hast loosed my bonds." [Psalms 116:16]

    my soul out of prison..." [Psalms 142:7]

    "To open the blind eyes,
    to bring out the prisoners from the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." [Isaiah 42:7]

    "The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
    to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;" [Isaiah 61:1]

    "The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,
    to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised," [Luke 4:18]

    whom Satan hath bound,... be loosed from this bond...?" [Luke 13:16]

    No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." [Luke 16:13]

    Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." [John 8:34] [...is the slave of sin]

    the bond of iniquity." [Acts 8:23]

    "For ye have not received
    the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." [Romans 8:15]

    ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:" [Ephesians 5:8]

    deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." [Hebrews 2:15]

    they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." [2 Peter 2:19]

    Surely, those that Jesus Himself himself preached to in His 3 1/2 year Ministry were not "deceased or departed, nor some immortal incorporeal", but were very much physically alive
    ["mortal man" [Job 4:17]; "Mortal Flesh" [2 Corinthians 4:11]] and held in the bondage to sin satan and self.

    Even as Paul hath said:

    Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" [Romans 6:16]

    Also speaking of
    "liberty" from "iniquity" [lawlessness] the scriptures continue by saying:

    I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts." [Psalms 119:45]

    "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and
    were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? " [John 8:33]

    "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
    Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." [John 8:34]

    the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever." [John 8:35] [Paul uses this analogy in Galatians; those who are in bondage are sinners, refusing to submit to God and His righteousness]

    the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." [John 8:38]

    "To open their eyes, [and]
    to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." [Acts 26:18]

    "Because the creature itself also shall be
    delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." [Romans 8:21]

    "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and
    where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty." [2 Corinthians 3:17]

    "For, brethren,
    ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another." [Galatians 5:13]

    "But whoso
    looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." [James 1:25]

    judged by the law of liberty." [James 2:12]

    "As free, and
    not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God." [1 Peter 2:16]

    they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." [2 Peter 2:19]

    Looking further at the context and continuing onward:

    "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." [1 Peter 3:20]

    Who are the
    "which"?They are the "spirits in prison", [vs 19], which by the text themselves declare are living people in the bonds of sin and disobedience.When was this preaching ["preached"] to these "spirits in prison" done according to the context?It was actually done to those who were "...disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the Ark was a prepraring..." [and even before through Enoch, and Methuselah [whose name means 'when he dies it will be sent'; 'flood'] as Jude gives]. This was done many years before Christ Jesus was ever incarnated/born as a man, and therefore long before His crucifixion.Thus the Gospel was also Preached "in the days of Noah" [for 120 years, Genesis 6:3]. The "disobedient" were the living disobedient and transgressing human beings who did not board the Ark, disbelieved the message of warning from God, but rather who continued to rebel and ignore the warnings that God [Jesus through the Holy Spirit] had given through Noah ["preacher of Righteousness"].It was not preached to angels, nor devils, nor immortal incorporeal forms, but rather it was preached to "man" [Genesis 6:3,5-7], who was living "flesh" [Genesis 6:12-13,17] [as we are living flesh], See also [Job 22:15-16].
  9. Florierte Gottes

    Florierte Gottes Member

    Peter is likening that preachment done then ["the like figure"], to the preachment done now [1 Peter 3:21], and their "then" baptism ["wherein 8 souls were saved by water"] in "the days of Noah", and he [Peter] is comparing it to the Baptism now offered in Christ Jesus.The Holy Spirit worked to convict of Sin then [through the preaching and lives of Adam, Seth, Enoch, Methuselah, Noah], as He does now [through Christians], but only 8 humans [living "souls"] were saved then, as no one else chose to repent, believe and obey and to get into the Ark [the only means of salvation] except Noah and his Family.So Likewise as it was “in the days of Noe” and in the days of Peter, the Gospel was preached to them who eventually died, hopefully in the faith that they might live again in the resurrection of the just, when his [Jesus'] glory shall be revealed, “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” [1 Peter 4:6], “But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.” [1 Peter 4:13] but if not in that resurrection of the faithful, then in the resurrection of the unfaithful, “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” [1 Peter 4:18], so too today He is convicting the whole world of "Sin, Judgment and Righteousness" [John 16:8] through the preaching of the Three Angels Messages and the "Everlasting Gospel" found in Revelation 14:6-12. [As Noah was a "preacher of Righteousness" [2 Peter 2:5] See also [Psalms 119:172], so now there is a remnant group of God's people Revelation 14:12 proclaiming it over the whole world [Revelation 14:6]...]

    Christ Jesus says as it was
    "in the days of Noe"[Luke 17:26, see also Matthew 24:37-39], so it will be...

    ...Another Message goes forth unto the whole world of the judgment, the Loud Cry of the Three Angels Messages is swelling and going forth even in these Last days [Revelation 14:6-12; 18:1-24]... a message for all, get into the "Ark" [Revelation 11:19], and to be “sealed” [Isaiah 8:16; Ezekiel 9:4,6,11; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13, 4:30; Revelation 7:3,4,5,6,7,8, 14:1] in before the "door" [Luke 13:25; Daniel 12:1] of Mercy and Probation closes forever, and the "rain" of destruction comes [Psalms 11:6; Isaiah 28:17, etc]...

    Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver [but] their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 14:14

    Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, [were] in it, [as] I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall [but] deliver their own souls by their righteousness. Ezekiel 14:20

    Repent [Acts 4:24, 14:15]. Turn unto the Creator/Redeemer Jesus Christ, and worship Him who made the Heavens, the earth and the sea and all that in them is, for he is the Lord of the 7th Day Sabbath, even as it is written, Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Revelation 14:6-7, etc.
  10. Florierte Gottes

    Florierte Gottes Member

    Now let us come back to Revelation 20, yet again, since the structure of Revelation is being ignored, and the parallel in Isaiah 24, as well as the type to its antitype in Leviticus 16 and 23, and we shall also consider Revelation 6 in its symbolism, being in two portions, a past event, and a yet future event, listed in the 5th Seal.
  11. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

    Not really. Eg, Acts2:27, Sheol is here translated "hades"= "hell" ( in the narrow sense). Neither the Koine nor the English has a true equivalent for "sheol" in this sense. The Greek uses "hades," we use our "grave." Sheol used in the semse: At death all men go into sheol entering the grave.

    Just ol' old Jack
  12. Florierte Gottes

    Florierte Gottes Member

    Ok, the Structure of Revelation is in the Seven Branch Candlestick pattern.

    [Branch 2] 7 Churches
    [Branch 3] 7 Seals
    [Branch 4] 7 Trumpets

    all basically parallel, each beginning with the destruction of Jerusalem from different perspectives and continuing chronologically through history up to the present day in the religious history, political and military/wars/etc. Historicsm.

    [Branch 1, Center]

    is the central theme of Revelation, the Great Controversy between Christ Jesus and Satan, and the bodies/churches of both heads, seen in about chapters 12-14.

    [Branch 5] 7 Last Plagues
    [Branch 6] 1,000 Years, Millenium
    [Branch 7] New Jerusalem/New Heaven/New Earth

    are consecutive [one follows the other] in chronological order in history, and eschatalogical.

    The Branches relate to eath other in structure and in language.

    [Branch 2] 7 Churches relates to [Branch 7] New Jerusalem/New Heaven/New Earth

    [Branch 3] 7 Seals relate to [Branch 6] Where the people of God are all sealed and satan in sealed for 1,000 years

    [Branch 4] 7 Trumpets [locality] relates to [Branch 5] the 7 Last Plagues [basically universal], even in their language and symbols.

    This structure cannot be broken. Once a passage is read, and the structure known it is a great aid to understanding Revelation, but there is more that needs to be understood also. For the Sanctuary services play a major role in Revelation, and understanding their order, helps one also to see their place in Revelation, which is why we need to consider the prophets like Daniel and Isaiah, and that which is given in the Sanctuary services Leviticus 16 and 23 and so on.

    Isaiah 24
    World Destroyed - Isaiah 24:1-20
    High Ones on High - Isaiah 24:21
    Kings Of The Earth - Isaiah 24:21
    Shut Up In Prison - Isaiah 24:22
    Many Days - Isaiah 24:22 [a perfect days/years prophetic use, Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34 and so on, Revelation 20]
    New Jerusalem/Zion - Isaiah 24:23
    Reign Gloriously - Isaiah 24:23
    Sun and Moon Ashamed - Isaiah 24:23
    Remnant - Isaiah 24:6
    Ancients/Elders - Isaiah 24:23

    Revelation 19-22
    World Destroyed - Revelation 19:11-21, 16:18-21
    Satan and angels - Revelation 20:1-2; Ephesians 1:3,20, 2:6, 3:10
    Kings Of The Earth - Revelation 19:19
    Shut Up In Prison - Revelation 20:1-2
    1,000 Years - Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7 [a perfect days/years prophetic use, Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34 and so on Isaiah 24]
    New Jerusalem/Zion - Revelation 21:2
    King of Kings - Revelation 19:11,16
    No Need for Sun and Moon in City - Revelation 21:23 [does not say they will not exist and seen in the city, but their glory is eclipsed by the glory of God, nor does it say that they do not have purpose outside of city, for time keeping still, days, weeks, months and years]
    Remnant - Revelation 22:14
    Ancients/Elders - Job 1:2; Revelation 4:4,10, 5:5,6,8,11,14, 7:11,13, 11:16, 14:3, 19:4

    Now consider that Revelation 20, deals with Leviticus 16 and 23, in the Day of Atonement, in the final Scapegoat ceremony.

    If the structure of Revelation is understood and the history, we shall easily see that we are now in the Day of Atonement, in the Church of Laodicea [people of Judgment], Judgment is going forward, having begun at a specific time/date, as seen in Daniel and in Revelation 14:6-7, while the Everlasting Gospel is being preached to all the world.
  13. Florierte Gottes

    Florierte Gottes Member

    Consider, even by the statement, "...the Scapegoat, that happened when the priest left the sanctuary...", considering the ministration of Jesus in the "daily" in the Holy Place [for He must of necessity have ministered here before moving into the most inner Naos], and finally the "yearly" in the Most Holy Place [Naos]:

    But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. Leviticus 16:10

    And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: Leviticus 16:20

    And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: Leviticus 16:21

    And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. Leviticus 16:22

    And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy [place], and shall leave them there: Leviticus 16:23

    The Scapegoat is not "for the LORD" , since only the Lord's Goat was for the Lord.

    And the events which surround the Scapegoat's release "into the wilderness", do not happen until after the Highpriest "...hath made and end of reconciling the holy, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar...", and then "...he shall bring the live goat". Notice the Scapegoat does not there die, but is brought alive ["the live goat"] before the Highpriest.

    First, when did Christ Jesus become our Anointed Great Highpriest? Not until after the Resurrection and Ascension [2nd; the Mt. Olives] into Heaven, and finally at Pentecost, and there were again 12 [Hebrews 7:26; Acts 1:1-26, 2:1-41 - needed 12 for fulfillment, see Exodus 28:13-21, 39:8-14; and for the anoninting see Exodus 29:7 in connection with Psalms 133:1-3, for Christ the Head [Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18] of the Body [Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 12:12; Colossians 2:19], and since the Oil is representative of the Holy Spirit Himself [1 Samuel 16:13; Zechariah 4:2-6], thus in Heaven was it poured out upon Christ Jesus, flowing from Head down to the Body, at Pentecost, but to all of the body, even coming to the touching the earth - but notice, that it even is to go to the 'feet' [down to the last "remnant" of the Body]].

    Now, let us consider this "wilderness", for it is obvious that Heaven is no such wilderness, and most definitely not devoid of living beings, such as the angelic hosts, representatives of the unfallen populous worlds ['sons of God'], 24 elders ['powerful angels'], 4 living creatures, Enoch, Elijah, Moses and the special 'firstfruits' - ["ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them" [Revelation 12:12], etc], and so also the earth even then at the Cross, neither now is a "wilderness", but shall be so again during the "thousand years" [Revelation 20] which are yet to come, and begin with Christ Jesus Second Advent, and continue unto the 3rd Advent. Let us see this:

    Scripturally speaking what is the "wilderness"? It is a "land not inhabited"; iow, without living men [humanity], "without form and void"; iow, chaotic, a place that was once "fruitful", but now devoid of life, for the final abomination will bring total desolation -

    I beheld
    the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light. Jeremiah 4:23

    I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. Jeremiah 4:24

    I beheld, and, lo, [there was]
    no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. Jeremiah 4:25

    I beheld, and, lo,
    the fruitful place [was] a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, [and] by his fierce anger. Jeremiah 4:26

    For thus hath the LORD said,
    The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. Jeremiah 4:27

    this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken [it], I have purposed [it], and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. Jeremiah 4:28

    The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks:
    every city [shall be] forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. Jeremiah 4:29

    For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for
    I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. Jeremiah 25:29

    Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them,
    The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread [the grapes], against all the inhabitants of the earth. Jeremiah 25:30

    A noise shall come [even] to the ends of the earth; for
    the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them [that are] wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 25:31

    Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. Jeremiah 25:32

    the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. Jeremiah 25:33

    Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves [in the ashes], ye principal of the flock: for
    the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel. Jeremiah 25:34

    And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the principal of the flock to escape. Jeremiah 25:35

    A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and an howling of the principal of the flock, [shall be heard]: for
    the LORD hath spoiled their pasture. Jeremiah 25:36

    the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD. Jeremiah 25:37

    He hath forsaken his covert, as the lion: for
    their land is desolate because of the fierceness of the oppressor, and because of his fierce anger. Jeremiah 25:38

    For compare Leviticus 16, to passages in Revelation [like 15 and 20, etc,

    And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy [place], until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. Leviticus 16:17

    And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. Revelation 15:8

    Compare Leviticus 16:10,20-23 [above] to:

    And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. Revelation 20:1

    Satan is to be "presented alive" [Leviticus 16:10], and is not eliminated at the 2nd Advent, but is to be taken and "bound" by a "great chain" [see Lamentations 3:7; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6, for this is no ordinary chain of metal, seeing the devil may break these [Luke 8:29, etc], but a chain of circumstance] and "let go" into "the wilderness" alive:

    And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Revelation 20:2

    And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Revelation 20:3

    "bottomless pit" is the Greek ἄβυσσος - abussos, and means, void, a desert wilderness [see also Luke 8:29 "into the wilderness", connected with Luke 8:31, "the deep", compare also to Mark 5:10, "away out of the country", out from cultivated and populated areas], see also LXX Genesis 1:2 "without form and void" - h de gh hn aoratos kai akataskeuastos kai skotos epanw ths abussou kai pneuma qeou epefereto epanw tou udatos, etc.Consdier also texts, which speak of the, "after many days" [1,000 years], "And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited." Isaiah 24:22 and "After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land [that is] brought back from the sword, [and is] gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them." Ezekiel 38:8 [see Gog and Magog in Rev 20, see context in Ezekiel 38]

    The earth during the 1,000 years has no human inhabitant, for the earth is laid low by the 7 last plagues, destruction, 2nd Advent, the righteous are all "caught up together" [1 Thessalonians 4:15-17], and all of the wicked slain or remain slain until after the 1,000 years [Revlation 20:5a]. Satan is bound there, a place once of a Garden, a place once of Babylon the Great, now to become a "habitation of dragons" [Isaiah 34:14], "a parched ground", "thirsty land" [Isaiah 35:7]:

    And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and
    it shall be an habitation of dragons, [and] a court for owls. Isaiah 34:14

    Notice, carefully what the text says:

    And there shall be
    no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy [place], until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. Leviticus 16:17

    If any place this event at the Cross, or even at the entry of Jesus into Heaven itself [Psalms 24; Acts 1:9-11; Revelation 12:5, etc], then it is obvious, that they have a serious conundrum upon their own hands, for then "no man" is then to be "in" that place with Him - for 2,000 years thus far, for it is plain that He has not yet "come out".

    Those words, "until he come out" are very important, see Hebrews 9:28:

    So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and
    unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:28

    The ceremony of the Scapegoat in the Day of Atonement is to make an "atonement with him", that is with the scapegoat, not for the peoples Israel, for the sins of Satan and the wicked have yet to be dealt with, they must pay for their sins [Satan the root, they the branches], in torment and 2nd death, since they having rejected Christ's sacrifice and atoning work.

    Let us never confuse the work gone on in the Courtyard, with that of the work gone on in Holy, neither either with that work gone on in that of the Most Holy. There is a work foreshadowed to be done in each. Also let us never confuse the Scapegoat which is not for the Lord, with the LORD's Goat which is for the LORD. And let us never think that the true Sacrifice, and the Blood obtained, takes care of all of the work of the priest and Highpriest, for the Sacrifice and the Blood obtained is different from the work of the Highpriest with the Sacrifice and the Blood obtained. There was also that which the people were also to enter into with the Highpreist, by faith in the last atoning work also - "...ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all..." [Leviticus 16:29]; "It [shall be] a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever." [Leviticus 16:31]; "...a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD." [Leviticus 23:27], "And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it [is] a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God." [Leviticus 23:28]; "For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people." [Leviticus 23:29]; "And whatsoever soul [it be] that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people." [Leviticus 23:30]; "Ye shall do no manner of work: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings." [Leviticus 23:31]; "It [shall be] unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth [day] of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath." [Leviticus 23:32] and all those not entered therein, were forever "cut off" of Israel; therefore they which knowingly reject this, will experience the 2nd death.
  14. Florierte Gottes

    Florierte Gottes Member

    The Souls under The Altar cannot be understood, unless the structure, timing, language, types and symbols of the Scriptures be understood. The Altar deals with the portion of the Sanctuary and the serivce of the Great High Priest, Jesus Christ. The timing of the events listed in the 5th seal, are two fold, namely there are two groups mentioned. One group that has already died/martyred in the past, and one group yet future to be so. The second group is picked up in Revelation 20:4, as those "beheaded", and this propheic event has yet to occur. The language itself also needs to be carefully considered, for there are similar passages in scripture.

    And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Revelation 6:9

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

    See also Revelation 6:10-11 for context between the two verses.

    In the first text we see that there were those "slain for":

    [A1] "the word of God"
    [B1] "the testimony [G3141] which they held"

    In the second text we see that there will be those "beheaded for":

    [B2] "the witness ["testimony" G3141] of Jesus"
    [A2] "the word of God"

    In Revelation 6:

    And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Revelation 6:9

    And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Revelation 6:10

    And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 6:11

    We are dealing with symbols, as we have been in the previous 4 seals Revelation 6:1-8. We are not looking at literal people stuck under a giant sanctuary fixture somewhere.

    We see these "crying" out, we must understand this, that their martyred selves, by their shed blood upon the earth cries out for Justice, even as Abel's was spilled to the ground:

    And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Genesis 4:10

    And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Hebrews 12:24

    That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:35

    From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. Luke 11:51

    Other things also "cry out" in scripture, but are not actually alive:

    For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it. Habakkuk 2:11

    And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. Luke 19:40

    Other things also "cry out":

    My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God. Psalms 84:2

    Now notice that these are dead, and that they are symbolically crying out for justice, and they should "rest" [sleep of death in the grave] a little season longer "until" something was to happen... and that something is the slaying of the rest of the martyrs in the end, and all will be vindicated in the Resurrection together.


    A: [sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40

    Do they have crowns yet? No.

    Notice also the question, "How long..." must they wait so? and a simple search will yield many answers in the OT/NT about this:

    If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Job 14:14
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
  15. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

    Christian Seeker
    Florierte Gottes, how many sock accounts do you have?
  16. Florierte Gottes

    Florierte Gottes Member

    The formation of man, 2 elements combining to make the third whole:

    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7

    The only reason why there is even allowed an interim period of aging and then of "sleep" [first death] is because of Jesus:

    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8

    Otherwise mankind would have forever perished in Adam right then.

    But in this "sleep" death, the process of Genesis 2:7 is reversed:

    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7

    Did mankind exist immortally as the spirit before the creation of man from the dust and the breathing into his nostrils the breath of life from God? No.

    God said that sin brings death:

    But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:17

    The serpent said that sin did not bring death, but a new level of existence:

    And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Genesis 3:4
  17. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

    The central theme of Revelation is to redound one's salvation (effect upon hearts and minds), ie, especially if one is born into a full blown apostasy where the 5th and 6th Trumpets are blasting warnings of preliminary judgments this moment. The Trumpets are the burden of Revelation which simply expounds IIThess.2:11, 12.

    Just ol' old Jack needing earmuffs

    btw from Adam till today, not one soul is snoozing, ie, alive in heaven or in hell where those in hell wish they were snoozing
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
  18. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Supporter

    Walls of text are impressive but do not work in this format. Maybe someone in Carm will take the time to read them.
  19. Florierte Gottes

    Florierte Gottes Member

    They are meant for those that actually desire to study, and will come across them through their internet searches. The Holy Spirit leads them, and He knows where His material is.

    Others, who do not read them, choose not to do so at their own eternal peril.

    So many think that this particular doctrine is of minor consequence, but do not realize they are upon the enchanted grounds of satan, being led further and further into his deceptive spiritisms.

    If you allow yourself to think that the dead are incorporeally alive/existing somewheres, contrary to God's word, satan will use it. It will be an open door to your heart/mind left unguarded.

    For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:14
  20. Florierte Gottes

    Florierte Gottes Member

    The Fifth Trumpet is already Past, being related to that portion of the French Revolution and the reign of terror 1793-1797 AD and the nearing of the end of the time prophecies of Daniel, being from 1798-1844 AD, in the giving of the deadly wound to the Papacy [1st beast Rev 13] by athiestically led France [beast from bottomless pit], and the arising of the USA [2nd beast Rev 13] to world power and dominance.
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