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Featured Soul Sleep Biblically Impossible

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. Mark51

    Mark51 Newbie Supporter

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    Keep in mind that Jesus referred to this account as a “vision” (Matthew 17:9) Moses and Elijah were simple represented as a vision. They were certainly dead-not literally present.-Job 6:5; 10:9; 14:10-15; Psalms 6:5; 104:29; 115:17; 146:3, 4; Ecclesiastics 3:19, 20; 9:5,6; 12:7; Jeremiah 51:57; Ezekiel 18:20; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15.

    Reconcile the fact that Jesus was/is “first” in everything. Your interpretation/beliefs would be contrary to what is written about this matter.-Acts 26:23; 1 Corinthians 15:20; Colossians 1:18.

    Also, I believe that you could use a more appropriate verb than “peddle.”
     
  2. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Actually it is. You imply made a claim with no support. I could sple claim the opposite.
     
  3. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    You'd have to ask Jesus. He's the one be who said it was a vision. Would you just ignore the evidence that obviously shows this isn't literal just to hold a theological position? How was Jesus resurrected before He was rucified? How were they literally there alive at the time when years later the apostle Peter stated plainly that it was the coming of Christ?
     
  4. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    umm, everyone dies.
     
  5. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Even though the apostle Peter told his readers many years later that it was the coming of Christ. How do you get the second coming when the first one hadn't yet ended?
     
  6. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    You left out the fullness of NT revelation where we see the following:

    Our eternal Hope and Promise is the Resurrection where we receive from God our incorruptible risen bodies. Our immaterial inner man which most Christian theology addresses as our immaterial soul or spirit, at physical death of the body, is present with the Lord.

    When Christ returns He brings with Him the saints asleep in the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:14).

    This is reinforced with Revelation where we see believers under the Throne of God. (Revelation 6:9-11)

    Then we have the teachings of Jesus Christ. In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus tells the story of a man named Lazarus and a rich man. Of course this is before His Resurrection, yet shows what Messiah teaches of what happens to us upon death of our mortal bodies. Lazarus and he rich man both in Hades one in bliss and the other in torment.

    Jesus also confirms the above in Luke 23:43 where He promises the repentant man on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise that day.

    And finally, the NT understanding of the state of the believer after physical death is always in the presence with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8 and Philippians 1:21-24).
     
  7. Butch5

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    You've got those passages out of context. Doesn't it concern you that nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that dead people are alive? Instead everything put forth is, a vision, a figure of speech or an inference drawn from the passage, not actually stated in it. On the other hand the Bible does state plainly that the dead, know nothing, their thoughts have perished, cannot praise God and so on.

    Seriously, why do you hold to this doctrine where there isn't any support for it and that evidence against it is crystal clear?
     
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    per almost any doctrine not shared in common, ask billions of people the same question.

    Is this a rhetorical question ?

     
  9. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Yes, TRUTH !
    But for their sake,(sort of), realize the souls are not asleep for one second...... when someone dies, they wake up as if immediately, even though 6000 years later in the resurrection. (or however long)
    They don't have "soul sleep" in the spiritual world - no time like on earth, and this confuses everyone who rejects Scripture, it seems.

    So even though the Apostles, and Noah, and Adam, and so forth, are not "awake" neither are they asleep "long" in the spiritual realm - a split second to them, they just died a moment ago, and are awake in the Presence immediately in the spirit 'time' even though we are all still 'stuck' in time for thousands of years still.....

    That's a bit awkward, but the origin of the term "soul sleep" is evil, and political, to deceive people, I think. We don't have to accept the term "soul sleep" that the enemy uses
    to accept the truth of Scripture that the enemy does not use nor accept.
     
  10. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    No, it wasn't rhetorical. As I pointed out, the Scriptures plainly state that the dead know nothing, cannot praise God, their thoughts have perished, etc. There's no need to draw an inference here, these aren't figures of speech, etc. They are plain statements. On the other side there is not a single statement that says dead people are alive. Instead, there are inferences drawn from passages of Scripture, visions, parables, etc. Yet not one plain statement. I really would like to understand why people will choose theologies that they've been taught over what is crystal clear in Scripture. A plain statement isn't something open to interpretation. A parable, a vision, an allegory, etc. is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
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  11. Butch5

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    I don't hold to the soul sleep doctrine. Sleep is used in the Scriptures as a metaphor for death. The idea is that when a person goes to sleep they are not conscious of their surroundings, or of time, etc. Then they wake up and are again conscious. When a person dies, they are dead, they are not conscious anywhere, they are dead. But, they will wake up again in the resurrection. I agree with you that to them it will seem like an instant because being dead they have no consciousness of time. It seems we're on the same page here.
     
  12. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Actually fully in context.

    It concerns me that you promote there is a 'pause' or 'ceasing' of eternal life as granted by Christ Himself.

    John 5: NASB
    24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

    1 John 3: NASB
    13Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

    John 3: NASB
    18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 6: NASB
    47“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48“I am the bread of life. 49“Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50“This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

    And once again, the fullness of Apostolic teaching is that upon our physical death, when our bodies are in the grave our presence is with the Lord:

    2 Corinthians 5: NASB
    6Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

    Philippians 1: NASB
    21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

    Once again being in the presence with Christ is contrasted with remaining in our mortal corruptible bodies.

    Therefore, the Apostolic teaching in Holy Scriptures is that the believer's disposition is always with the Lord.

    Acknowledged you will not address the texts I provided.

    The various doctrines of soul sleep promoted here are 19th century inventions of the Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs), Seventh Day Adventists (SDA) and of E.W Bullinger. The premise of all three sources is that Greek philosophy influenced the early church to believe in an immaterial soul which can live beyond the mortal body. However, this can be an argument as the bishops of Alexandria were influenced by Greek philosophy. Yet, the Apostolic teaching of our presence with the Lord, with our dead mortal bodies in the grave, is not influenced by Greek philosophy.

    Paul taught of the inner and outer man often in the NT. For example, here:

    2 Corinthians 4: NASB
    16Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 17For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.


    Where is Paul getting this outer vs inner man concept from? Is it some Greek philosophy influence? Absolutely not, it is actually a Hebrew concept as we see explained in Vine's Expository Dictionary:

    Soul, the Hebrews and the Inner man

    A. Noun. nepesh (5315), “soul; self; life; person; heart.” This is a very common term in both ancient and modern Semitic languages. It occurs over 780 times in the Old Testament and is evenly distributed in all periods of the text with a particularly high frequency in poetic passages. The basic meaning is apparently related to the rare verbal form, napash. The noun refers to the essence of life, the act of breathing, taking breath. However, from that concrete concept, a number of more abstract meanings were developed. In its primary sense the noun appears in its first occurrence in Gen. 1:20: “the moving creature that hath life,” and in its second occurrence in Gen. 2:7: “living soul.” However, in over 400 later occurrences it is translated “soul.”

    While this serves to make sense in most passages, it is an unfortunate mistranslation of the term. The real difficulty of the term is seen in the inability of almost all English translations to find a consistent equivalent or even a small group of high-frequency equivalents for the term. The KJV alone uses over 28 different English terms for this one Hebrew word. The problem with the English term “soul” is that no actual equivalent of the term or the idea behind it is represented in the Hebrew language. The Hebrew system of thought does not include the combination or opposition of the terms “body” and “soul,” which are really Greek and Latin in origin. The Hebrew contrasts two other concepts which are not found in the Greek and Latin tradition: “the inner self” and “the outer appearance” or, as viewed in a different context, “what one is to oneself” as opposed to “what one appears to be to one’s observers.” The inner person is nepesh, while the outer person, or reputation, is shem, most commonly translated “name.” In narrative or historical passages of the Old Testament, nepesh can be translated as “life” or “self,” as in Lev. 17:11: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for [yourselves].…” Needless to say, the reading “soul” is meaningless in such a text. (Vines Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, location 12557 digital copy, W.E Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White Jr.) (Also found at: Google Books)

    Vines nicely shows that even in Hebrew thought there two ontologically distinct entities, yet even as Paul uses the inner and outer man terms are these are in vital union. Why? Because the 'end state' and Hope is always the resurrection and putting on the incorruptible 'house from Heaven' (2 Corinthians 5).

    2 Corinthians 4 is not the only NT references from the Apostle Paul in which he makes this inner and outer man distinctions:

    For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. (Ephesians 3:14-19)

    I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:21-25)


    If our born again immaterial inner man which is being renewed day by day, as Paul contrasted to the outer decaying man, truly turns to dust and is annihilated then our New Birth as a New Creation in Christ and seal of the Holy Spirit turns to dust as well. This is the belief of the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower and has absolutely no support in Christianity.

    The New Testament revelation and teaching is that once our mortal bodies fail and assume room temperature (die) those in Christ are present with the Lord.​
     
  13. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Yes, your thoughts and ideas should concern you, it concerns us also.

    We don't wait to die to be in union with Jesus.
    As Ekklesia born again by the will of the Father in heaven,
    we are already in union, one, echad, with Jesus daily.
     
  14. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    You didn't address what I posted. The Scriptures plainly state that the dead, know nothing, cannot praise God, their thoughts have perished. How can one be rejoicing in the presence of the Lord when they have no thoughts, when they know nothing etc?

    All of what you've posted here is easily addressed. You've drawn an assumption that the inner man and outter man are two different perssons. When Paul speaks of the renewing of the inner man he's talking about what one believes, how they act, etc. They are renewing their mind. They are changing their thought processes. The inner man refers to the mental aspects of a man. It's not a separate person from the body. Even in your post from Vine's he recognizes that soul, nephesh is translated life. one's life is not something separate from the body. He note Gen 2 where it's a "living soul". This passage shows that a living soul is the combining of the body and the breath of life from God.

    The passages from 2 Cor. 5 are about the resurrection, not the state of the dead before the resurrection. If you start in chapter 4 and read the entirety of the passage it's concerning the resurrection. He's clearly making a distinction between the corruptible and the incorruptible. The incorruptible isn't the state of the dead before the resurrection, it's after it.

    It's interesting that you would bring up Greek philosophy. Your entire argument is based on the idea of the "immortal soul" an idea from Greek Philosophy. Plato was a big proponent of this idea. However, the Bible tells us plainly that a "living soul" consists of a body, the man, and the breath or spirit of life from God. So, a nephesh consists of two parts. We're also told what happens to these two parts when a man dies. The breath or spirit of life returns to God and the body, the man, returns to the dust. When the two components separate there is no longer a soul. What exactly is it that you suppose lives on?

    One thing to keep in mind is something Peter said. Remember, Peter was one who had his understanding of the Scriptures opened by Jesus Himself. Yet Peter said of Paul,

    6 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Pet. 3:16 KJV)

    Even Peter who knew the Scriptures well said that some things Paul wrong were hard to understand. No matter what you believe Paul said, you have to reconcile all of his writings. In 1 Cor. 15 Paul said of dead Christians, if there is not resurrection, then those who have died in Christ have perished. If as you believe, that the dead are with Lord, then Paul's statement would be factually wrong. He leaves no hope for dead Christians except the resurrection. Now, this presents quite a difficulty for the position you hold.

    Regarding your passage from John, eternal life isn't something you can put in your pocket and carry around. It's having life from God. Every living thing is receiving life from God. The question is how long will that life last? The Scriptures say that it's appointed for men once to die. Everyone dies, even Christians. If you look closely at what Jesus said it's pretty clear what He meant about eternal life.

    25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (Jn. 11:25-26 KJV)

    Speaking of the believer, he said, "though he were dead". So, the believer dies. Then He says, "yet shall he live." So now the believer is raised from the dead. Then the key part, "and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." So, we see that the one who shall never die, the one who has eternal life, is a believer who has already died. So, from this we can clearly see that the eternal life that Jesus speaks of is physical life, it's not some spirit or ghost that lives on after dead. It's a physical human being. And that human being being a believer died previous to living eternally. This shows us that when one is said to have eternal life it is speaking of the future, it is speaking of the Resurrection, not the current state of the person.

    Having said that, you still didn't address the question. doesn't it bother you that there isn't a single clear statement in Scripture that states that dead people are alive? Like I said, there are clear statements that show the dead are in fact dead.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
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  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    One verse from a compendium of sayings in a book of wisdom taken not in the full context:

    Ecclesiastes 9: NASB
    2It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear. 3This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead. 4For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

    Verse 5 says the dead have no reward. Really? No eternal life or rewards from Messiah? The next verse 6 tells us this is based on the temporal understanding of "done under the sun" which means this life. Therefore, Solomon is opining on when you die here on earth there is nothing more for us on earth in the temporal.

    To take this verse as evidence we do not have an immaterial inner man which is present with the Lord upon physical death, then you would have to explain "nor have they any longer a reward." That qualifier alone shows Solomon is speaking of our temporal carbon based life form lives----mortal lives.
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Yeah see above. They also have no reward which contradicts the Words of Christ and His apostles. Therefore it means something else.
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Well thank you Jeff for making my point. Soul sleep breaks the bond of Christ and believer and why it is a serious error.
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    19th century Bullingerism. Let all know what it is. Bullingerism with JW and SDA.
     
  19. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Right! Their mortal lives. That's all there is. As I said, your argument is based on the idea of the immortal soul which is a Greek concept not a Biblical one. Neither Jesus nor the apostles taught an immortal soul. Actually, Paul said that the Father alone has immortality. There is no immortal soul. One has to read that into the Scriptures. As, I've pointed out people get this idea by way of inference. There is not a single passage of Scripture that states that that the dead are alive. That doesn't even makes sense. If they were alive they would be dead.

    Even in real life we can show that the dead cannot praise God, that they know nothing, etc. You can't show anything in the real world to support that the dead are alive. The only evidence that can be presented is a few passages of Scripture that are being misunderstood. So, in essence, apart from a few misunderstood misunderstood passages of Scripture there isn't any evidence whatsoever to support this claim that the dead are alive. On the other hand, we have both clear statements of Scriptures and real world evidence that the dead cannot praise God, that they know nothing, etc.
     
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  20. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    That doesn't address the passages. Scripture says the dead cannot praise God and that their thoughts perish. How then can they be conscious in the presence of the Lord?
     
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