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Featured Soul Sleep Biblically Impossible

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    Heb 11:8-10,13 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

    13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth
    .



    His people were already dead and lying in wait of the resurrection. Abraham has not received the promise - yet!
     
  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    There was a package, a box sent from anther state, sent to me, that I never received.
    I didn't 'expect' it any day, but after a week or two, I checked with the sender and they said it had not been returned to them. After another week I checked with them again, and they told me they had a routing (tracking) number (they failed to tell me this before),
    and I was able to look up the routing number online. The package, according to the tracking online, had supposedly been left on my porch just 3 days after they had sent it.
    Thus either the service had put it on the wrong porch, and no one returned it, or someone had absconded with it.... we never found out.
    I never received the promise 'package', and so far have no idea what actually happened to it - perhaps some day it will be revealed.

    Yahweh cannot fail, He always Keeps His Word.
    He will raise from the dead all who trusted in Him, at the appointed hour.
    Abraham will receive the promise, it is already accomplished since God's Word cannot be broken, even though it is not yet seen.

    Everything that is hidden will be revealed. One day I will know what happened to the package.

    One day, everyone will see the Promise to whom the Promise Is; the dead will be raised up before the living and together all who God said the Promise is for will receive it.
    And everyone destined for eternal judgment, they will receive their 'package' too,
    everyone who dies apart from Christ, not trusting God. (no, there is no second chance, as the enemy of Christ has propagated throughout the world - that 'second' chance heresy is a lie) ....
     
  3. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
  4. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
  5. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    I have brother, we are currently dwelling the flesh and are absent from the lord, after death comes sleep and the Resurrection which would seem as an instant as it does in when we sleep now. After the Resurrection we will be present with the Lord in heaven, not in this body of Flesh but in the spiritual body. That is why after saying these things he speaks on the day of Judgment that comes after the resurrection.
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  6. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    Here is the key text used to defend Soul Sleep. (the state of the dead as unconscious nonexistence)

    Ecclesiastes 9:5
    For the living know that they will die,
    but the dead know nothing;
    they have no further reward,
    and even their name is forgotten.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Yet, in the same chapter we find this.

    Ecclesiastes 9:10
    Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
    for in the realm of the dead, where you are going,
    there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Furthermore, if they want to claim that "the dead know nothing" means the state of the dead as unconscious nonexistence, they have to accept everything else that this chapter states about life and the state of the dead. Let's look at the near context.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5-10
    For the living know that they will die,
    but the dead know nothing;
    they have no further reward,
    and even their name is forgotten.
    6 Their love, their hate
    and their jealousy have long since vanished;
    never again will they have a part
    in anything that happens under the sun.
    7 Go, eat your food with gladness,
    and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do.
    8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil.
    9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.
    10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Oh, my.
    - The dead have no further reward? (no reward in heaven?)
    Do they believe that? And...
    - Even the names of the dead are forgotten?
    Do they believe that?
    - Their love, their hate have long since vanished?
    Do they believe that?
    - Never again to have a part in anything under the sun?
    Not even in the Millennial kingdom?
    - They should drink their wine with a joyful heart?
    Now they need to take up drinking? Heaven forbid!
    - Always be clothed in white.
    A change in wardrobe. ???
    - Always anoint your head with oil.
    A change in grooming. ???
    - Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love.
    A change in behavior and attitude?

    On and on it goes. Do they also believe these things? (nope)
    Then why should they believe in Soul Sleep? (good question)
     
  7. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Most astute and insightful.

    :oldthumbsup:
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    You are assuming there is some unconsciousness and as such this is what Paul means by the ultimate resurrection.

    However, in both the 2 Corinthians 5 and Philippians 1 passages the Resurrection is not qualified in the context. In fact it is not present at all in Philippians 1 passage and in 2 Corinthians 5 Paul addresses the Resurrection earlier, yet not when speaking of immediate presence with the Lord.

    To introduce absent from the body at home with the Lord as the Resurrection is wresting the text with no qualifiers.

    If you were to argue the state of the presence with the Lord that is a different matter as some do debate.
     
  9. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    I've already showed you where else(and even within these chapters) Paul, and Christ, and the other Apostles said what happens when we die and when we will be with Christ. If you choose to only look at what these two chapters say(or rather just a small portion of each chapter) and ignore the rest of the bible that is your choice. But my time discussing this with you has come to an end because there is no profit in discussing the word with someone who will only look at a piece and not the whole picture.
    2 timothy 3:16-17
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
     
  10. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    Colter (quoting the KJV): "1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


    That's a great Scripture! Why would Yeshua have to "come again and receive you to myself" if we are already with Him?
     
  11. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    From the book Immortal by Lex Meyer

    pp.205-207
    Resurrected Saints

    “What happened to the dead saints that came out of their graves when Jesus resurrected?”

    There is an interesting event recorded in the Gospel of Matthew, which tells us that the graves opened up the day Yeshua died, and many dead saints came out of their graves after His resurrection and walked around Jerusalem.

    “And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”i

    However, the Bible does not tell us what happened to those people afterward. We don’t know if they continued living for a few hours, days, weeks, or years, which has led to a lot of speculation and myths about what might have happened to them. I really wish we were given more information about them, but unfortunately we are left to wonder.

    Some people have incorrectly concluded that these saints were the “firstfruits” of the resurrection and Yeshua took them with Him when He ascended into heaven, but we know that Yeshua Himself is the firstfruits, because the Bible tells us, “now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.”i The firstfruits offering is a single sheaf that is waved before the LORD, and Yeshua is that sheaf. Also, the Bible says nothing about other people ascending to heaven with Him.

    We must also realize that if these resurrected saints were taken up to heaven, they would have been given their perfect immortal bodies, however, the Bible tells us that we will all be made perfect together, and that even the great fathers of our faith (such as Abraham, Isaac, Moses, etc.) will not be made perfect apart from us.

    “And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.”ii

    Therefore, if Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and many other great men of faith have not yet been made perfect, then we cannot conclude that the people who came out of their graves after Yeshua was resurrected were made perfect at that time.

    There are a number of examples in the Bible of people who died and came back to life, but were not given immortality. Lazarus is a prime example of someone who was dead for four days before he was raised back to life, and he did not become immortal. Another example is when the ruler of the synagogue’s daughter died, and Yeshua raised her back to life. She was not given an immortal body at that time, and she did not ascend to heaven, she simply came back to life as a mortal.

    It is inconsistent with Scripture to conclude that a number of unnamed persons ascended into heaven, when the Bible tells us that no one has ascended.

    If we tried to name some of the people in the Bible who might be worthy to be taken to heaven with Yeshua, the list would surely include people such as King David, Moses, and Abraham, however, all of those men are listed by name as not having receiving the promise yet.

    Also, in Peter’s sermon, he specifically says that David has not ascended into heaven, but remains in his grave.

    "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day... For David did not ascend into the heavens..."i

    The only thing we can safely assume about the resurrected saints is that they eventually died again. We don’t know if they were alive for a few hours, or if they were like Lazarus, and given a number of years to continue their lives. However, the Bible does not support the idea that they ascended to heaven.


    http://www.immortalthebook.com/docs/Immortal-Book.pdf
     
  12. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    By the way, if anyone wants to read the full PDF version of Immortal you may do so by following the link provided.

    http://www.immortalthebook.com/docs/Immortal-Book.pdf

    Al of the favorite examples are included. See for yourselves. Look at the table of contents under page vii and you can see a number of them listed.
     
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    They were at that time still alive as carbon based life forms on earth.
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Lex Meyer is one of the Hebrew Roots ministers from Shavuot ministries?
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    It’s not just what these two chapters confirm but the entirety of revelation from Holy Scriptures.

    As I pointed out here:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...cally-impossible.8076939/page-6#post-73052991
     
  16. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    I don't know. He has many YouTube videos that are very informative. Here's one:

    An Immortal Soul?



    I hope this interests some to do further study.
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Thank you. If you were not aware of his links to Hebrew Roots movement I recommend taking a look at that. They have a very different view of what is the canon of Holy Scriptures than Christians.
     
  18. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    John 5:24
    “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

    John 6:63
    The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
  20. JESUSKiDtommy

    JESUSKiDtommy GODLY LOVE for others is so important

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  21. JESUSKiDtommy

    JESUSKiDtommy GODLY LOVE for others is so important

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    Why ask this question? Why devote time to anything other than the promotion of CHRIST LIKE LOVE in the hearts of HIS people?..... Seems since there was fruit on the tree in the garden that was seen as being good for making one wise to be like GOD and it was forbidden to man... Then it should stand to reason that fruit from within the WORD that has no role in promoting CHRIST LIKE LOVE to be growing in the hearts of HIS people would also be forbidden, because all a non edifying passage does is cause a person to think they are wise to the ways of GOD.

    Rightly dividing the WORD is to know and recognize passages that are directly or indirectly tied to the kind of LOVE we see in the heart of JESUS.... and HE included some passages that have nothing at all to do with HIS LOVE, they are stumbling blocks.
     
  22. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    From the book: Immortal by Lex Meyer

    pp.180-182

    Elijah in heaven

    Doesn’t the Bible say that Elijah went to heaven?”

    By far, the most common reaction that I get from people on the subject of heaven is the question about Elijah being taken into heaven. Nearly everyone is familiar with the story of Elijah being carried away by a whirlwind up into heaven, so the first question they have after hearing John 3:13 is, “what about Elijah?” Did Yeshua forget about Elijah when He said, “No one has ascended into heaven”i?

    No, Yeshua was not mistaken, and He did not forget about Elijah. The Bible does not contradict itself, so if we find something that seems like a contradiction, we need to investigate it further.

    The first thing we need to determine is why Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind. Since that is not a common event, there must be a reason why it happened. After we figure out why he was taken, then we need to see if the Bible gives us any more information about where he was taken. When we let the Bible interpret itself, we will find that there are no contradictions.

    There are a few interesting things that take place before Elijah is taken up. Three times Elijah told Elisha, “Stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me”ii, and likewise, three times Elisha responded saying, “As the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!”iii This shows us that Elisha was unwilling to leave Elijah as long as he was alive. He refused
    to let Elijah simply leave, and he continued to follow him
    around everywhere he went.

    Similarly, we see that the sons of the prophets also spoke to Elisha twice saying, "Do you know that the Lord will take away your master from over you today?"i God was taking Elijah, because Elijah’s time as prophet was drawing to a close, and Elisha was going to replace him, but this cannot happen if Elisha refuses to leave his master. He made it very clear that he would not leave Elijah as long as he was alive.

    The first six verses of this chapter are focused on the fact that God was going to take Elijah away from Elisha, because Elisha was unwilling to let Elijah leave on his own. Everyone mentioned in this text knows that Elijah is being taken away from Elisha.

    Elijah knew it was time for him to leave Elisha, and he said to him, "Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?"ii We know at this point that Elisha requested a “double portion” of Elijah’s spirit, and what happened next is where many people have gotten confused.

    “Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.”iii

    I have heard many people say that Elijah was taken into heaven by a chariot of fire, but that is not what the Bible says. It says that the chariot of fire separated the two men, and that a whirlwind took Elijah into heaven. This was also
    explained in the very first verse, which says, “...when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind...”i That is a significant difference, because that misunderstanding has led many to misinterpret what happened to Elijah.

    If a supernatural chariot of fire took Elijah into heaven, it would be easy to conclude that he was taken out of this world in a supernatural way. However, the Bible says he was taken away by a “whirlwind” (probably something like a tornado), which is why the sons of the prophets said, “Look now, there are fifty strong men with your servants. Please let them go and search for your master, lest perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has taken him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley.”ii They did not conclude that Elijah was taken out of the earth, but that he was simply taken away to a different location, because tornadoes do not carry things out of the earth’s atmosphere.

    The Scripture says Elijah was taken up into heaven, but to which heaven was he taken? Many people do not realize that the Bible refers to more than one thing as “heaven”.

    In Genesis, we see that “God called the firmament Heaven”iii, which we know from the context is a reference to the sky. The Bible also makes a number of other references to the sky using the word heaven, and even explains that the birds fly in the firmament of heaven.

    pp.185b-187a

    So, which to which heaven was Elijah taken? Did he leave earth’s atmosphere and ascend into the second heaven, where the sun, moon, and stars are? Or did he transcend the known universe and enter the highest heaven, the dwelling place of the Almighty?

    Nothing in the Bible indicates that he left the atmosphere. In fact, there is some pretty solid evidence to suggests that he was still on earth a number of years later, because he wrote a letter to king Jehoram, who was not king at the time he was taken away from Elisha.

    “And a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus says the Lord God of your father David: Because you
    have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father, or in the ways of Asa king of Judah...”i

    We know this letter was written long after the whirlwind took Elijah, because Jehoshaphat was king at that time, and it was a number of years before his son Jehoram became king. This fact is evident in the text, because after Elijah was taken, Elisha spoke with king Jehoshaphat.

    “But Jehoshaphat said, ‘Is there no prophet of the Lord here, that we may inquire of the Lord by him?" So one of the servants of the king of Israel answered and said, "Elisha the son of Shaphat is here, who poured water on the hands of Elijah.’"ii

    The Bible explains that Jehoram, son of Jehoshaphat, did not begin his reign as king until after the death of his father.

    “And Jehoshaphat rested with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the City of David. Then Jehoram his son reigned in his place.”iii

    “Now in the fifth year of Joram the son of Ahab, king of Israel, Jehoshaphat having been king of Judah, Jehoram the son of Jehoshaphat began to reign as king of Judah. He was thirty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem.”iv

    If Elisha spoke with king Jehoshaphat after Elijah was taken, and Jehoram did not begin his reign until after Jehoshaphat died, then how could Elijah write a letter to king Jehoram unless he was alive when Jehoram became king?

    The only logical conclusion is that Elijah was taken up into the sky (not the highest heaven), and transported to another location on the earth. He was able to write a letter to king Jehoram because he was still living on the earth during the reign of king Jehoram.

    The Bible does not contradict itself. No one other than Yeshua has ascended into heaven, not even Elijah.

    (emphasis mine)
     
  23. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    Are you suggesting that there are edifying and non-edifying parts of the Bible? By what standard do you measure them and make this distinction?
     
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