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Featured Soul Sleep Biblically Impossible

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    In 2 Corinthians 5 Paul made a distinction between receiving our heavenly house (resurrected body) and being absent from this mortal body yet present or at home with the Lord once we die. If our soul/spirit or inner man (2 Corinthians 4) ceases to exist then how are we present with the Lord?
     
  2. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    What happens to this spiritual image of man when our mortal bodies die?
     
  3. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    Paul doesn't say it is at the time of our death that we come to dwell with Christ but at the resurrection. Paul says that when we die we sleep in the grave awaiting the first or second resurrection. The soul/spirit which is contained within our earthly tabernacle(body of flesh) sleeps when the breath of life is given up as it is no longer contained in a living body of flesh(earthly tabernacle) only when it is awakened by the Lord do we regain our thoughts/memories and our abilities to feel.

    There is no time when we cease to exist.
     
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    A real vision with Moses speaking to Jesus. Sounds like Moses was more than dust in the grave.
     
  5. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    A vision doesn't mean it wasn't real. It means it was seen by someone's eyes. Moses and Elijah aren't dead, nor sleeping. They are awake and able to talk and do things like any one can.
     
  6. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    II Cor 5:1-8 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

    3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


    4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

    6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

    7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

    8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord
    .
     
  7. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    That is written about what happens to the human body at death, from the human perspective. The dead bodies know nothing. That has nothing to do with the soul/spirit that is fully alert and awake in either heaven or Hades.
     
  8. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    "A real vision with Moses speaking to Jesus. Sounds like Moses was more than dust in the grave."

    Something can be real or it can be a vision.


    Vision:
    an experience of seeing someone or something in a dream or trance, or as a supernatural apparition.
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    2 Corinthians 5: NASB
    6Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. 7For we walk by faith, not by sight.8We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. (NASB)

    At home with the Lord is not qualified here as the Resurrection. Paul already earlier in the chapter made the distinction our desire is the Promise of the Resurrection. He is addressing our presence with the Lord upon death of our mortal bodies.

    This one is quite interesting:

    Philippians 1:NASB

    21For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. 23I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. 24But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. (NASB)

    What interesting is once again Paul makes the distinction between this temporal life vs being with Christ if he dies. Does he mean the Resurrection? It can’t be as Paul is speaking of leaving the Philippians by his death and being with Christ. If it was the Resurrection then the Philippians would be going too.

    Two passages about the death of the mortal body and two references to being with the Lord/Christ. Neither qualified by the Resurrection.
    Is it possible you have a presupposition we do not have an immaterial inner man or spirit even though the Bible teaches we do?
     
  10. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    A vision means something visual seen, not an imaginary vision of things that aren't real.

    Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

    G3705
    ??´?aµa
    horama
    hor'-am-ah
    From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.

    Mark makes this clear:


    Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

    Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

    And so does Luke.
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Regardless what’s accomplished by God showing something to the apostles which you would conclude is not viable?

    Meaning it could not really be Moses because he was in the grave and we don’t have an immaterial inner man? I’m assuming this is your presupposition.
     
  12. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    1. Yes Paul says that he desires to out the tabernacle of Flesh and dwell with the Lord, he knows flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven and that when he dies he will be a spirit and will be resurrected in that form. Not in the tabernacle of Flesh. He says as much here and in other chapters/books.

    2. Philippians 1 speaks of Paul's desire to be with Christ after death since he knows that only in the first or second Resurrection can one be present with the Lord.
    1 thess 4:16-17
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Yes Paul speaks of dying and being with Christ but when paired with the rest of his writings we see he means in the first or second Resurrection.
    But looking at it the way you are it contradicts the rest of Paul's writings on the subject of Resurrection and when we come to dwell with Christ, it also contradicts peter, Christ, and the Apocalypse of John. So it is apparent when looking at the full picture that Paul is referring to either the first or second Resurrection for the time he would be with Christ.

    I have said we all have a spirit/soul that lives on after death(of the earthly tabernacle of flesh) and sleeps in the grave/hell. I don't know where you would be getting the idea that I do not believe this.
     
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    This is an assertion. Why?
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Well I don’t think Paul thought he was going to the grave or hell. He said PRESENT with the Lord.
     
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  15. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
    23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
    24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

    He desires to depart and die so that he can live again with Christ, when we pair this with what he said here
    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    We see that Paul knows/believes that a person does not dwell with the Lord until they are resurrected
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
     
  16. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    The grave and hell are the same, Paul knew he would sleep in the grave when he died. He said the dead sleep many times. I have shown you a few of the places he said as much already. He would be present/live with the Lord at the time of the first or the second resurrection Paul has told us he knew as much several times.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  17. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Because it is what the Bible says clearly .....

     
  18. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    What does Yahweh show Yahweh wanted Paul to mean ?

     
  19. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    All the evidence points against this assertion.
     
  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Upon death of our mortal bodies we are present with the Lord. The text actually says that.
     
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