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Featured Soul Sleep Biblically Impossible

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The response usually given to the above account of the Transfiguration is twofold:

    1-This was a one time event
    2-This was a vision of things to come

    How would you respond to the above?
     
  2. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    This is accurate. And yet Messiah said that YHWH at the burning bush proclaimed He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and as such He is the God of the living and not the dead.

    Which at a very bare minimum, Jesus is teaching although the bodies of those men are dust in the graves YHWH counts them living.
     
  3. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Few in this forum would come out and say directly that they believe in soul sleep as do died in the wool Adventists.

    The Adventists must believe in it because they believe we are not saved until there is a special investigation of our lives to see how we've done in so far as resisting the mark of the beast (worship on Sunday) and such.

    Their belief is obviously one of works - even though many good Adventists don't understand the teaching as it is taught in hard line Adventist churches.

    Here in the forum I quite frequently run across a similar concept when discussing OSAS. Many in those discussions have said that they believe we do not have eternal life now but will perhaps receive it sometime in the future at a judgment to see how we lived our lives etc.

    This of course is very similar to the hard line Adventist concept of "works" salvation - even though those pedaling it would deny what I just said.

    This anti OSAS belief in salvation being granted sometime in the future - is a works gospel just as surely as other similar teachings such as hard line Adventism.

    Of course they will deny that it is.

    But they must either believe in sinless perfectionism or believe that we die spiritually and are born again time after time throughout our life hoping that we manage to die in a state of salvation - or beiieve in a form of soul sleep with salvation only being truly granted after we see in the future judgment how we did in life.

    Again - most who teach works salvation will resist what I am saying vigorously - even though it's truth should be obvious.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  4. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Good example but Jesus takes it one step further by using the word resurrection to describe the fact that the patriarchs were alive.

    Matthew 22: 23-32. The same day the Sadducees came to him (Jesus), which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him………… 29. Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living 33. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. Jesus directly used the term “the resurrection” to describe the fact that the patriarchs were alive, not dead and the multitude was astonished by this statement. Why would that be? The belief that there was life after death was held by the vast majority of the multitude. They were certainly not astonished that Jesus would say the Patriarchs were alive anymore than Christians today would not be astonished; it is something they already believe. One can only assume they were astonished because they understood Jesus to say the Patriarchs were already resurrected, something that they understood to be a one time future event at the end of the world.
    Very simply. Unless the word resurrection is being used to describe raising a dead flesh and blood body back to life. Or being used figuratively to describe the new life in Christ. The doctrine of ressurection teaches there is immediate life after death in a physical body that has human form. It’s just not physical as we know it. When we step out of this flesh and blood shell we will be stepping out of it with our spiritual body that’s has legs, arms, eyes, mouth etc etc.
    http://wordservice.org/Bible Basics/bb6000.htm

    upload_2018-8-10_12-16-55.jpeg
     
  5. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1 Corinthians 15:52 (WEB), in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.

    If they will be raised, that does not necessarily mean they are already raised.

    Daniel 12 (World English Bible):
    2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the expanse; and those who turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run back and forth, and knowledge shall be increased.”

    A day of judgement is coming.

    Mark 8 (WEB)
    35 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; and whoever will lose his life for my sake and the sake of the Good News will save it. 36 For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? 37 For what will a man give in exchange for his life? 38 For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man also will be ashamed of him, when he comes in his Father’s glory, with the holy angels.
     
  6. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    No it doesn't. If you read Mathew's account of the Transfiguration you'll see that what they saw was a vision. Both Moses and Elijah were dead.
     
  7. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Add to the above both John 11:17-44 and John 5:24 sheds light on this. That the Resurrection is the final Promise but we pass from death to eternal life the moment we believe.
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    What makes you think it is a vision? Jesus was transfigured and the apostles heard the Voice of the Father. Does this make it a partial vision?

    And if a vision, why would God use dead people in a vision who according to you should be in the grave?

    Thanks.
     
  9. JerseyChristianSuperstar

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    Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they will die;
    But the dead know nothing,
    And they have no more reward,
    For the memory of them is forgotten.

    I'm not a conditionalist, but this is a prooftext they often use.

    In my opinion, this is just King Solomon referring to the fact that before Christ came, there was a "soul sleep" in a sense, i.e. the righteous went to sleep in the Bosom of Abraham, until Christ freed them.

    Thoughts?
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Well I think you quoted the exact text conditionalists use but then they ignore the rest of the passage which gives meaning to "the dead know nothing."

    Ecclesiastes 9: NASB
    5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

    It is a fact once we assume room temperature (die) we no longer participate in the things of this temporal world (all that is done under the sun) unless you consider "Weekend at Bernie's" (bad 80s movie).
     
  11. Jennifer Rothnie

    Jennifer Rothnie Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure that is enough to disprove the theory unless one of its tenets was that a dead person could never temporarily be brought to consciousness by God or other means. And I'm pretty sure that isn't a mandated corrallory belief. For example, I've known many people who hold to soul sleep believe that Samuel really spoke to the Witch of Endor in I Sam 28. But Samuel says, "Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” so they believe it implies he was at rest before that. And I doubt many proponents would advocate that God is unable to temporarily bring the dead to consciousness if needed by His plan.

    Anyway, it's a theory I'm neutral on. I've studied it a bit and can find no direct proofs against so far, and there certainly are passages that seem to support it. But I'm not sure there is enough given on the state of the dead in scripture to know for sure.
    [Question: What does the Bible say about soul sleep?
    See Answer: http://ebible.com/answers/22733?ori=167400]
     
  12. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    When a man dies the first death he rests in the grave(Acts 2:27-31,1 Peter 3:18-19, 2 Peter 2:4 , Psalm 16:10 ,Acts 2:27) and his thoughts cease, and he has no more part in anything done under the sun. (Psalm 146:4, Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, Psalms 6:5).
    Acts 13:36
    36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

    Acts 2:29, 34
    29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    None of those who have died since the beginning have been resurrected, except for he who came down from heaven
    John 3:13
    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Ephesians 4:8-10
    8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    When a man dies his soul/spirit lives on and sleeps in the grave(Matt 9:24, Mark 5:39, Luke 8:52-53, 1 Kings 2:10, Acts 7:60, 1 Cor 15:6, John 5:28-29, Job 7:21, Job 14:10, Daniel 12:2, 1 Thessalonians 4:13).

    Strongs Concordance-5590. psuché
    soul, life, self
    from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul
    C.the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death

    This is the definition used in Matt 10:28, Revelation 6:9, Revelation 20:4, , Acts 2:27, 31. It is referring to an essence that is separate from the body and lives on after death(after the breath of life is given up) the soul is immortal. (1 Sam 28:11-20, 1 Peter 3:18-20, Revelation 6:9-11)

    The Spirit/soul of those dead are given up to be Judged at the Day of Judgment.
    Revelation 20:12-13
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    Christ did not free those in prison(as in resurrect them) instead he went unto them and gave them a chance to accept him by ministering unto them.
    1 Peter 3:18-19
    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


    Ephesians 4:9
    9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    But no person except for Christ has been resurrected, which is why the apostles refer to the dead as still sleeping Acts 7:60, 1 Cor 15:6, 1 Thessalonians 4:13
    1 Corinthians 11:30
    30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

    And we are shown this in
    Revelation 6:9-11
    9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    Even after the first Resurrection of the righteous dead, the rest of the dead are left sleeping in the grave until the second Resurrection.
    Revelation 20:
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    Those would be my thoughts on the matter.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  13. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    It helps to define what a "soul" is. If we go to the creation of the first soul, Adam, we can see that it is the combination of a body with the breath of life or spirit in it.

    Separate the spirit from the body and there is no soul until the resurrection when God will bring with Him our spirits or "breath of life" to be united once again with our bodies.

    It is said that Adam "became" a living soul. It does not say that Adam was given a soul.

    Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.



    Also, the appearance of Moses and Elijah was a vision.

    Mat 17:9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.”
     
  14. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life A Sinner

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    I don't think this makes a relevant difference.

    This would be rather bizarre. There's no evidence that this was a vision of the future.
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    What part of us is made in the Image and according to the likeness of God?
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I have to ask...so what?

    Does a Heavenly vision make it somewhat inaccurate or unreal?
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    When the Apostle Paul said when we are absent from these bodies and at home with the Lord, what did he mean?

    Jesus gets back the oxygen in our lungs?
     
  18. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    Redleghunter: "What part of us is made in the Image and according to the likeness of God?"


    Good question. Certainly the spirit that was given to man was in God's image. More than likely God's attributes are also a part of His image that we share, like self awareness, love, hate, joy and pleasure to name a few.
     
  19. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    Redleghunter: "I have to ask...so what?
    Does a Heavenly vision make it somewhat inaccurate or unreal?"


    The fact that it was a vision does not make it inaccurate. It was certainly an accurate vision.
    Was it real? Yes, it was a real vision.
     
  20. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    With the breath of life we become a living soul(Genesis 2:7) clothed in the tabernacle of Flesh(2 Cor 5:1,4). When we die our mortality/earthly tabernacle is put off(2 Cor 5:4) swallowed up in death. So while we are at home in the flesh(alive bodily) we are absent from the Lord(2 Cor 5:5-6) but after death in the flesh we are spiritual beings/living souls( 1 Cor 15:44-46) awaiting resurrection and life with Christ(2 Cor 5:6,8,9; 2 Cor 5:10).
    While we are alive we are not present with God(since we are in the flesh) but when we die and become free of the earthly tabernacle the day of resurrection is the only thing that awaits us. We will not be with the Lord(In heaven) when in the flesh(1 Cor 15:50; 2 Cor 5:5-6) but in the spirit(1 Cor 15:42-44; 2 Cor 5:6, 8). This is the meaning Paul was speaking to.

    When we die the Lord is given back the breath of life and the earthly tabernacle(our bodies of Flesh) die.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
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