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Featured Soul Sleep Biblically Impossible

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    The NIV doesn't use the word "vision" in any of the three gospel accounts.
     
  2. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    Redleghunter: "Here I thought the dead can't hear."


    John 5:25-29 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.



    Think about this passage of Scripture for a minute. The "dead will hear". "All who are in the tombs will hear His voice and will come forth".

    I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.
     
  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    That isn't true.
     
  4. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    And, I gave you God's definition of the resurrection. In it He said nothing about reuniting "us" with our bodies. Read Ezekiel 37. He said He'd put the bones back together, cover them with flesh and put "His" breath into them and they would live. It's the same thing Moses recorded.
     
  5. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I said no such thing. I haven't deny the breath or spirit, I've said it's what gives man life. The human mind ceases at death, not because it's matter, but because God's breath is no longer in the man. In Job we find that the breath of God give him understanding.

    8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)
    Then h
    We've seen from Gen 2:7 that there is a breath in man, it is the breath of life. Job says the same. Then he says the breath of the almighty gives him understanding. The breath of God in man give him life and that is why his brain can function. Your claim of materialism is base. I've not made that claim at all.
     
  6. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    You gave him "God's definition"?
    How is he going to trump that? You played the "God" card.
    It's not just your opinion, it's "God's definition". So there. (you win) Right?
     
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Again, it's not apostolic teaching. Firstly you have to realize that you are reading and interpreting a text. Paul is not speaking to you. How you interpret that text is based on your presuppositions. If you already believe that there is some part of man that lives on after death then it's not surprising that you would see that here. However, as I've pointed out at least twice now, Paul, speaking of dead Christians said, if there is no resurrection then those who had died in Christ had perished. Note that he used the past tense. If there is no resurrection they had already perished. So we know that Paul didn't believe in an intermediate state where Christians were with the Lord. His statements about leaving and being with the Lord are easily understood. You're assuming that it is immediate, yet Paul gives no time frame in his statement. Given that the Scriptures equate death with sleep we can see what Paul means. When one goes to sleep they are not conscious of their surroundings. So, when they wake up it's the next thing they know. So to the one who slept it seems immediate even if it's not. So, for Paul, if he died, the very next thing he'd know is being with Christ at the resurrection.

    Think about what you posted. Paul said he would rather go and be with Christ but it was better for them if he stayed there. If that was the case then why wouldn't they all go and immediately be with Christ? If that's what was better then one would think Paul would have told them so and they could all go and be with Christ.

    And, as I pointed out 2 Cor 5 is about the resurrection. It's not just a few verses. Note also that Paul says that he wants to be overclothed or clothed upon so that he is not found naked. That's a flat refutation of what you're claiming. Being found naked refers to being without a body. This is one what Greeks believed and Paul is refuting it. He says that mortality will be swallowed up by immortality. In other words there is no time when he is without a body.
     
  8. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    Remember what a vision actually is and means according to the Greek. Our English concept of a "vision" is different than what it is in the Greek:

    A vision means something visual seen, not an imaginary vision of things that aren't real.

    Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

    G3705
    ??´?aµa
    horama
    hor'-am-ah
    From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.

    Mark makes this clear:


    Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.


    And so does Luke.

    Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.
     
  9. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    That's what's going to happen in the resurrection. Remember that believers are Israel. Paul said that the Gentiles have been grafted in and he also said those who have been baptized into Christ are Abraham's seed. Also, it is the land that believers will inherit, not heaven. Believers will live on the earth Revelation says that God will dwell with men. What we see in Ezekiel 37 is just watch we can expect to see. Also, notice that in chapter 37 it is individuals being resurrection not a nation.


    There is an "us" it is the bones and dust. You're assuming the "us" is something other than the physical body but you have nothing to support that claim other than a few passages which you must interpret. There is nothing that states this. Gen 2:7 tells us how God made man and what He used to do so. It's a physical stuff, the dust of the earth.

    Regarding Lazarus God did what we saw in Ezekiel 37 when Jesus spoke the words.
     
  10. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I don't see how this bears on the subject, but, I believe what John said. In the beginning the word was with God and the word became flesh. The Son of God that existed in the OT became flesh as Jesus
     
  11. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    The Greek text does.
     
  12. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Really? What do you know that I don't? Scripture says it's appointed men once to die.
     
  13. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Hopefully, it's not about winning. Hopefully, it's about figuring out the truth. With all of the error that is preached today in the name of Christianity, just look at all of the denominations, we really should be seeking what the Bible really teaches rather than trying to protect doctrine. Doesn't that get old? I mean we saw it through the dark ages when the Catholic Church controlled what people believed and then with the Reformation which controlled what people believed. I would hope that in this rather unique time in history where we can actually discuss the Scriptures openly without persecution that we could finally take a close look at the Scriptures with an open honest heart and seek the truth.
     
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    Show us.
     
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    Yes. But can you do it without playing the "God" card?
     
  16. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I didn't play any card. I simply pointed out that it was God who spoke those words.
     
  17. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Matthew 17:9 Καὶ καταβαινόντων αὐτῶν ἐκ τοῦ ὄρους ἐνετείλατο αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγων· μηδενὶ εἴπητε τὸ ὅραμα ἕως οὗ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐκ νεκρῶν ἐγερθῇ. (Matt. 17:9 BGT)
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The same Moses at the Transfiguration?
     
  19. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Define the breath of life.
     
  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Now back up to Genesis 1:

    Genesis 1: NASB
    26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

    What does it mean to be created in the image and according to the likeness of God?
     
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