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Featured Soul and spirit

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ilovejcsog, Aug 1, 2019.

  1. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Thank you. I shall. Remember what He said about the strongman. Read the post with that in mind and follow suit. :)
  2. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

    United States
    Your logic is flawed here IMO.:)

    You are assuming that the two words are interchangeable simply because the two verses are describing the same event.

    But it does not logically follow that there cannot be two separate components to that same overall event.

    I.e. the Lord's soul may have been troubled for the reason that He was troubled in His Spirit.

    E.g. - from an example in my life - I would be troubled in my soul (mind, emotions and will) if I was greatly troubled in my body. I.e. - if I was being burned at the stake, I would be very upset.

    This is not to argue for or against them being essentially the same. I may do a separate post about that opinion.

    But we can't know the answer for sure based on these two verses.

    They are two different words in the Greek. That in itself should tell us something. Just because English translators speak in similar ways about the two words does not make them the same thing.

    The explanations by the commentator's (for that is essentially what the writers of those English definitions are) of what the two word mean does nothing more than reinforce the fact that it's difficult from either the scriptures or language to know if they are the same thing.

    I.e. - the commentators are not ancient Greeks and their "definitions" can only be based on how the two different words are used in literature.

    In the case of biblical literature - we all have trouble finding the exact definitions. I suspect they struggle as well.
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  3. Ronald

    Ronald Exhortations Supporter

    United States
    Yes and no. They are not the same but integrated.
    When we were born, our spirit was dead. Yet, we have a soul as everyone does. The soul as Topher said, is mind, will, emotions, your basic personality (which is a range of habits). And so you live as a sinner until you are born again. Your spiritual compartment that was dead is now given life. God now dwells in your spiritual compartment which is separate from your fleshly part. The flesh is the body and soul of the individual. So now you have dual nature, which battles against each other.
    You can go back and study the Old Testament Temple, which was a physical template of our New Temple.
    The Old Testament Temple had a Courtyard, Lampstand, Altar of burnt offering, Bronze Laver, Table of Showbread, the HOLY PLACE and the MOST HOLY PLACE, where the Lord dwelt. It was separated by a veil. Hence, that old Temple veil was torn when Jesus died and when we are born again, he lifts the veil so we can see.
    The Holy Place represents the soul. The spirit and soul of man are the heart of man (highly integrated so that we cannot distinguish the difference - only by the WORD).
    The Courtyard represents our body. Our soul and body (flesh) is where sin dwells
    The Table of Showbread contained the bread and wine tha represents our fellowship (communion ) with God.
    The Lampstand was always lit. The church is the lampstand that is lit by the LIGHT.
    The Bronze Laver was used for cleansing before entering the tabernacle to perform sacrifices, It represents the cleansing of the new believer, the baptism by water and our willingness to receive forgiveness and spiritual cleansing.
    Our new spirit is like a seed; when planted, it needs water to grow. The Spirit is the living water, which is the essence of the Word. As the Spirit of God grows our spirits, our whole being begins to be transformed into the likeness of Christ. Then we are able to bear fruit in our deeds and relationships. Our spirits are pure but we still have sin that dwells in the members of our flesh.
    God dwells in a purified place within you. So when you die, your spirit, which is only all the good in you, moves on and the fleshly part of you dies. We already died to sin and to our old selves. But still return and backslide because some old habits are hard to break.
    Old Temple :Ex. 26 -29; 1 Kings 6-9; 2 Chron. 2-6;
    New Temple: John 3:3; Eph 2:19-22, Eph. 3:16; Rom. 8:1, 2, 9-11, 16; Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 1 Cor. 15:53; 2 Cor. 6:16, 12:2; 1 Per 2:5; Matt. 3:11; John 14:16, 17, 26

    Here is a truth about the soul and spirit. If they are the same, then these verses would not make sense:
    "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thought s and intents of the heart." Heb. 4:12
    "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thes. 5:23
    There you go, even though sin dwells in our flesh, we are preserved blameless until his coming at which time we will receive NEW BODIES.
  4. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

    No, we need a soul because our continuity can be identified in an eternity. It's our permanent ID. We need a spirit because our eternity is staged. Spirit is used to store stage dependent information. For an example, our earthly affections are stored in our spirit. When we die our spirit returns to God, we thus no longer have the same affections for our parents or children. It's more or less resemble how we feel now about our ex-girlfriends. We still remember but no longer have the affection. In Heaven, we have only the affection for our brothers and sisters, but not the parents or children during our earthly stage.

    Both soul and spirit are lying in an adjacent dimension. When we die, soul and spirit and body will separate. Our spirit is said to return to God. Our soul (the true ID of us) will naturally descend to Hades, unless say an angel grabs us to somewhere else such as Abraham's Bosom.
  5. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    That isn't flawed logic. It shows the spirit and soul are the same thing as does the other evidence provided. If I call my boss and say my car broke down and I'll be late, then call my brother and tell him my vehicle broke down, can you come help...I'm talking about the same thing.

    That doesn't tell us anything. Car and vehicle are two different words also.

    It does actually prove the are the same. Like I said, like a two headed coin...both the same except there are two of them.
  6. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

    United States
    What I explained makes perfect sense as anyone can see.

    One verse says that Jesus' soul was troubled and the other says that He was troubled in His Spirit.

    I explained why that does not logically demand that His soul and Spirit were exactly the same part of His humanity.

    So long as there are other legitimate ways to look at it - logic does not demand your conclusion. Yours conclusion is only your assumption.

    We see this kind of flawed logic all the time when discussing scripture. E.g. - a verse says that the Lord will not blot out someone's name from the Book of Life ---- someone concludes from that that He will blot out the name of others. He may well do that - but that verse does not prove it. You'd need to prove your point from another angle.

    This is but one example of how would be theologians often come to conclusions which are not logically warranted.

    You may well be right in saying that the soul and spirit are the same thing. You'd be in pretty good company with that. But you need to provide more than what you provided to prove it.

    If you want to argue about it further - find someone else.

    My own view, by the way, is that the spirit and the soul are inseparably linked. The two are not the same even though where the soul goes the spirit goes with it and where the spirit goes the soul goes with it.

    That is true for the unregenerate as it is for the regenerate. It is true for us now in this life. It will also be true in Hell and it will be true in Heaven or on the New Earth.

    The condition of the spirit effects the condition of the soul. The condition of the soul, however, does not effect the condition of the spirit IMO.
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  7. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

    I believe they are separate or at least separable only judging by Hebrews 4:12:
    For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.