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Sooo, what exactly is "charismatic"?

NothingIsImpossible

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A lot of the 'regular' non-denominationals will call themselves 'evangelicals.' Does that mean they are denominational? By 'non-denominational', they mean the church isn't a part of a denominational organization, that it is an independent church. 'Charismatic' is more of a theological position. A non-denominational church could believe in Calvinist doctrine.
True. Denomination and theological position are two different things. Most ND around here don't have any specific theological view that I know of. Well.... our last church didn't have one yet they joined up with a baptist organization. They said things would be the same but most knew that wouldn't be true and most left the church. Us included.

Our current church, which is actually one of the first we went to has no specific theological position that has a name. THey do list (when you become a member) what they believe. Which is the basics like three persons in one, gifts do exist, Jesus died on the cross for our sins, salvation through him...etc. Maybe that does have a theological label but they certainly don't mention one. Which is ok with me. Because labels just cause more diversity amongst christians. We have a hard enough time dealing with the world as it is and yet we end up fighting with each other too now for 2000 years about labels.

I know my mother said we tend to go to evangelical churches. After awhile though there are so many labels used that I can't keep up with whats what. A Presbyterian versus a Evangelical.... I have no idea anymore what the difference is. Though if I recall Pres are more like the lutheran denomination for example who are much more conservative. Women wear dresses to church. No shorts, no wild pink hair, no this or that. Its why I just list myself as christian or more so believer of the Bible because even the word christian in todays world confuses people. Some think it means only catholic, some think its means only extremist like the West Baptist Boro....etc.
 
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LinkH

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I know my mother said we tend to go to evangelical churches. After awhile though there are so many labels used that I can't keep up with whats what. A Presbyterian versus a Evangelical.... I have no idea anymore what the difference is. Though if I recall Pres are more like the lutheran denomination for example who are much more conservative. Women wear dresses to church. No shorts, no wild pink hair, no this or that. Its why I just list myself as christian or more so believer of the Bible because even the word christian in todays world confuses people. Some think it means only catholic, some think its means only extremist like the West Baptist Boro....etc.

Presbyterian refers to the form of church government. Some Presbyterians are really liberal socially and theologically. Some are very conservative. Historical roots are from the Scottish Reformation. They are historically a part of the Reformed movement. Lutherans believed in consubstatiation, that communion is both the body and blood of Christ, and bread and wine at the same time. Reformed churches disagreed and saw communion in a more symbolic manner. Historically Presbyterians were what we would call 'conservative' but some have become liberal over time. PCUSA has a number of liberal congregations. PCA is more conservative. There are a number of small conservative denominations.

Some Presbyterians would call themselves evangelical. So would some Lutherans.

Some liberals may dress 'conservatively', like putting on their Sunday best for church. Theological liberals tend to have a looser way of interpreting the Bible than conservatives.

Historically, Presbyterians were Calvinists. Presbyterian church government is a replica of the city and church government of Geneva during the Reformation, blown up on a national scale.
 
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actionsub

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I did hear sermon that said that higher education was not the solution for moral ills, and one preacher did not care much for Psychology.

LOL. I got that as a Southern Baptist growing up. My grandfather, who was A/G, suggested I go to an A/G college down in Texas. My parents didn't want me that far from home, and considering I hadn't had that much exposure to Pentecostal beliefs despite my grandfather's being an A/G pastor, it probably would have blown my little Baptist mind!
(Note: By the time I graduated university, I'd gone somewhat charismatic and wished I'd have had the opportunity to go to the Texas school...)
 
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sdmsanjose

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"With that said I never cared for Pentecostal or charismatic. They are super judgmental alot of times about outsiders. The times we've tried or even visited those churchs even for a event they will say "You don't speak in tongues? Your not a christian then!".


I attended the Church Of God church for around three years because of a Christian relative that was a serious and practicing Christian attended there. The preacher knew that I was raised a Baptist but would say that the Baptist were the ones that gave licenses to sin. Apparently the preacher thought that the Baptist were not strict enough or something. Maybe because the Baptist preach “Once saved always saved”, the security of the believer. Judgmental?


I would play tennis with that preacher and got to know his beliefs fairly well. One time he told me that if we left the tennis court and got in an accident and I was killed, without confessing any sin that I may have committed that day or the days before then, I would go to hell. Biblical?


I wanted to speak in tongues and tried but I did not speak in tongues. My preacher said that I was a second class Christian and used the biblical story of Elijah and Elisha to back up his statement. The preacher said that Elisha got a double portion of the spirit at Elijah’s death and performed more miracles.


My serious practicing Christian relative left the church to join another because she said “I was not getting fed”. We all left with her. I think that the preacher was not representative of all Church of God churches because I cannot imagine that serious studies of the Bible would come to those conclusions. However, I have not been to another Church of God church so I am just guessing.


We now attend a non-denominational church that has some charismatic beliefs but conducts the service somewhat like the Baptist and the doctrine is a lot like the Baptist.
 
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DZoolander

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Ehhh, if I were to go to one of those churches for some reason and felt like I was going to be discriminated against because I couldn't speak in tongues, I'd just fake it. It ain't like they know the difference. Just cluck like a chicken for a little bit, look sincere about it, and you're good to go.
 
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riesie

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The difference between classic Pentecostals and other charismatics is basic doctrinal slant that underlies the congregation. By and large - pentecostalism is an outgrowth of the Wesleyan Holiness movement in the 1800s; and as such seems to be tied closely with the Methodist/Church of the Nazarene doctrinal stream.

Charismatics OTOH come from a variety of doctrinal streams like Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian and even Mennonite.

What they have in common is the use of the 1 Cor 12 "gifts of the Spirit" which Paul described as "charisma" or gifts of grace. Classic Pentecostalism especially emphasized public tongues and interpretation. In some charismatic congregations you will not hear tongues at all; but will more hear prophecy or words of knowledge and wisdom. Both will have prayer for the sick.

Charismatics tend to be better educated, both secularly and biblically.

One thing to beware of: Kind of bridging the 2 groups is a group called "word of faith." Their teaching has infected both groups, especially in the non-denom and unaffiliated congregations. The pastor usually becomes a small dictator who is accountable to no one, and doctrinally they turn proper christian self-denial on its head. It is a very shaming doctrine as anything that goes wrong in your life is YOUR fault because you did not have enough faith. If there is something you want, all you have to do is confess the right group of scriptures and TRULY believe and it will be dropped in your lap. (name it and claim it, confess it possess it, blab it and grab it)

One pentecostal bible teacher described it as turning God into a "cosmic vending machine;" plug in your proper scripture, pull the knob by confessing and out pops your blessing. Some will actually go so far as to say that if you do these things, God has to obey you. (do you see the problem?)

Stay away from any group that adheres to that doctrine as it tends to go toxic rather quickly.
Thanks for this great explanation Dave!
 
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sdmsanjose

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Ehhh, if I were to go to one of those churches for some reason and felt like I was going to be discriminated against because I couldn't speak in tongues, I'd just fake it. It ain't like they know the difference. Just cluck like a chicken for a little bit, look sincere about it, and you're good to go
.
EZ, that experience bothered me a bit at that time. However, in the long run it turned out to help me. I started digging deeper into the scriptures and commentaries (did not want to be a second class Christian and go to hell) and am now more stable and secure in by beliefs. So all the Church of God preacher did was prompt me to FIND OUT FOR MYSELF through scriptures and other means what my spiritual beliefs are. I came out of that experience much stronger in my beliefs. Now all churches to me are possible supplements to my faith but the main core is my study of the scripture and commentaries, my observations in life, and my experiences in life. I try to keep an open mind to other Christian denominations as I think many have some spiritual values for my consideration.


I go to a non-denominational church because I do not want to fall into the thinking that one denomination has all the right spiritual answers. Also, by being non-denominational the tendency to judge a person with a stereotype of beliefs (Catholics are not Christians, Baptist think they have all the answers, Pentecostals Charismatics are just emotional, Mennonites-Friends are stoic, etc.) is alleviated somewhat.


That preacher also railed against secular education as being anti-God. What happened after several years was that his wife went to night college with my wife and she became a secular school teacher and somewhat supported them both in their later years. The preacher’s children also got a secular college education.


The preacher left his ministry ( something he earlier made fun of other preachers for doing) and the last time I saw the preacher he seemed a little bitter.
 
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mkgal1

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The preacher left his ministry ( something he earlier made fun of other preachers for doing) and the last time I saw the preacher he seemed a little bitter.
That's too bad. I really hope he didn't leave his faith in God behind as well. Sometimes NO exposure to religion can be better than false beliefs.
 
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All4Christ

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I don't recall that in either of the Assemblies of God churches I was a part of growing up. I asked about that on an A/G forum, and a lot of them did that sort of thing. I sort of associated everyone praying at the same time more with the denominations that were 'Holiness' in their doctrine, predominantly southestern denominations. Some of the A/G folks who said they did that were from the Southeast or Texas, though. So it could be regional influence. One A/G I attended was in Louisiana and the other was in the Georgia suburbs.





In comparison to prophecy and in the context of the church meeting, I would agree. But, of course, Paul instructed that speaking in tongues and interpretation be allowed in the church gathering and that 'ye may all prophesy.' Reading some second century writings, I get the impression that prophesying in church was practiced in churches. The Shepherd of Hermas warned that false prophets preferred to prophesy outside of the church meetings.



The idea that speaking in tongues is languages is the historical Pentecostal view and also the experience of the early Pentecostal movement. I have come across three references to situations where someone spoke in tongues at the Azusa Street Mission during the years of the Azusa Street revival and someone who knew the language heard it and recognized it. Seymour mentioned it in a newsletter. The Comforter Has Come describes another case. Val Dez gave another account in Fire on Azusa. Vincent Synan did an interview that was posted on YouTube with two elderly folks in the early 1970's who had been children at the Azusa Street revival. One of them said that what drew people was the fact that people would come in and hear their languages, Japanese, or whatever, during the meetings. I've read accounts of the interpretations being verified by those who knew the languages naturally at well.

I don't see any reason to read into the Corinthian descriptions of tongues, the idea that they could not have been speaking real languages. It is just obvious from the text that no one present actually understood the languages naturally and the congregation needed the gift of interpretation to understand it.

Some tongues may be 'tongues of angels'. No one on earth may be able to understand that with their natural understanding.



If we look at the actual text of the Bible for instructions from the apostles themselves regarding what to do in gatherings of the church, the one lengthy passage we have on what to do implies that a predominant characteristic of the church is that it is 'charismatic', that is, that the spiritual gifts are active in the church. Paul commands the church to allow speaking in tongues and for the saints to prophesy. He doesn't say anything about pastors preaching sermons or specify a particular liturgy. He also seems to imply that he is appealing to universal church practice and calls his instructions commandments of the Lord. Paul encourages readers to be zealous for spiritual gifts and instructs them to covet to prophesy.



The phenomenon was horribly named, IMO. There are plenty of cases where prophets and other individuals fell down, or were not able to stand (e.g. priests in the temple when the cloud was present). Daniel felt physically weak after an encounter with what seems to have been an angel. The guards who came to arrest Jesus fell on their backs when He said, "I am".

One note - you will find some Orthodox that are vehemently against it, and others that don't preclude it but see it as a minor gift. My husband would be among those who dismiss the tongues of angels side of it.



Do you have a particular book in mind?


I'm pretty exhausted, as I am on serious jet lag right now, so I will try to answer this better once I am more awake. I just got back from vacation yesterday and am on a 6 hour time change!

Perhaps a quote from the Greek Archdiocese would help:


I think this misrepresents the beliefs of Pentecostals and Charismatics. In my experience, the belief that those who are truly saved will speak in tongues (prerequisite is not the right word) is pretty much exclusively a belief of Oneness Pentecostals. The last I read, that was maybe 5% of Pentecostals. I do not know that I have ever heard of a Pentecostal or Charismatic outside of the Oneness movement who believed that way.

Maybe if they said 'or to having received the Holy Spirit.' Most Pentecostal denominations and Charismatic churches believe that Christians can be baptized with the Holy Spirit subsequent to conversion.

From the same quote,


Paul put a clarifier on it. He spoke in tongues 'more than ye all.' But he said, "Yet in the church" he would rather speak five words with the understanding that he may instruct others than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue.

He does not say that in terms of his personal prayer, tongues is any lower than prayer in a language he understood. This is part of an argument in the passage that speaking in tongues edifies the speaker and not the listener and is not beneficial to the rest of the congregation unless it is interpreted.

I wanted to let you know that I plan to reply and have started to work on it, but due to just getting back from vacation - I have been limited on time. I don't want to write a quick response, as it is something I'd like to explain and discuss fully.

A side note - I appreciate your knowledge of both Pentecostal history and of other Christian faith traditions. It was rare to find that in my old church. It's a key element to effective communication in my opinion, and I believe everyone should learn what their denomination believes and the history of their denomination.
 
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Dave-W

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I appreciate your knowledge of both Pentecostal history and of other Christian faith traditions. It was rare to find that in my old church. It's a key element to effective communication in my opinion, and I believe everyone should learn what their denomination believes and the history of their denomination.
I wholeheartedly agree. And I would add they would do well to gain at least a cursory understanding of the other major faith groups as well.

That way they can give an answer on WHY they believe what they do and why they do NOT believe another way.

For example - in my jr and senior years of high school I "visited" a local Church of Christ on a regular basis. My home congregation at that point was an independent Pentecostal Holiness congregation. I became quite familiar with the CoC argument against the gifts (from 1 Cor 13). One day a person from that congregation asked me about my beliefs that way and explained I was very much in favor of using the 1 Cor 12 gifts. So he started in, and I said "let me continue..." and explained his position as well as he could. (his words: "I couldn't have said it better myself) Then I proceeded to dismantle it.

Knowing WHAT you believe, WHY you believe it, and why you do NOT believe something else is a very stabilizing factor in our faith walk.
 
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All4Christ

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I wholeheartedly agree. And I would add they would do well to gain at least a cursory understanding of the other major faith groups as well.

That way they can give an answer on WHY they believe what they do and why they do NOT believe another way.

For example - in my jr and senior years of high school I "visited" a local Church of Christ on a regular basis. My home congregation at that point was an independent Pentecostal Holiness congregation. I became quite familiar with the CoC argument against the gifts (from 1 Cor 13). One day a person from that congregation asked me about my beliefs that way and explained I was very much in favor of using the 1 Cor 12 gifts. So he started in, and I said "let me continue..." and explained his position as well as he could. (his words: "I couldn't have said it better myself) Then I proceeded to dismantle it.

Knowing WHAT you believe, WHY you believe it, and why you do NOT believe something else is a very stabilizing factor in our faith walk.

Very true. It also may cause one to adjust personal beliefs if necessary. Either way, whether affirming current beliefs or adjusting beliefs, it helps greatly with personally knowing, understanding, believing, and becoming much stronger in one's faith.

This especially happens when talking to people with different backgrounds. So often, it seems like we are speaking in different languages, no pun intended. We may think we are saying the same thing, yet are understanding a very different meaning - or we may be a lot closer than we think. If we take the time to understand various theological frameworks, we can mature in our faith and much more effective in communicating.
 
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Dave-W

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Yes, pentecostal and charismatic are lumped on together as almost the same denomination in most ways.
Eh - not really. There are very different theological streams in Charismatic circles. (Catholic, EOC, Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc)

Pentecostals are restricted to the Wesleyan Holiness theology family of denominations.
 
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All4Christ

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Eh - not really. There are very different theological streams in Charismatic circles. (Catholic, EOC, Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc)

Pentecostals are restricted to the Wesleyan Holiness theology family of denominations.

EOC? Eastern Orthodox Church? If you are referring to that, the "movement" if you want to call it that is very limited and is not the same concept as the other charismatic churches. It primarily is composed of individuals, and a church here or there. I think there is a schismatic group that calls itself Orthodox that is "Charismatic".

That said, charismatic, imho, is a misnomer in some ways. Many churches, while not charismatic in the sense of speaking in tongues during services, hold to the Holy Spirit being active today and bestowing charismas (gifts of the Holy Spirit) today on those who follow Him.
 
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Dave-W

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EOC? Eastern Orthodox Church? If you are referring to that, the "movement" if you want to call it that is very limited and is not the same concept as the other charismatic churches. It primarily is composed of individuals, and a church here or there. I think there is a schismatic group that calls itself Orthodox that is "Charismatic".

That said, charismatic, imho, is a misnomer in some ways. Many churches, while not charismatic in the sense of speaking in tongues during services, hold to the Holy Spirit being active today and bestowing charismas (gifts of the Holy Spirit) today on those who follow Him.
That describes the wide variety of expression in "Charismatic" circles. Many or most are not in separate congregations or denominations but are still within those mainline church groups.

FWIW, I know of no "Charismatic" denominations as such. Congregations, yes. But most of them are "nondenominational." The only possible exception I can think of would be the Vineyard churches. But their roots are also in Wesleyanism via the pentecostal denom Four Square Gospel Church.

OTOH, there are many Pentecostal denominations.
 
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WolfGate

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I have found this thread fascinating and educational. As one who has never visited a charismatic church I had only perceptions based on second hand information.

The idea that speaking in tongues is languages is the historical Pentecostal view and also the experience of the early Pentecostal movement. I have come across three references to situations where someone spoke in tongues at the Azusa Street Mission during the years of the Azusa Street revival and someone who knew the language heard it and recognized it. Seymour mentioned it in a newsletter. The Comforter Has Come describes another case. Val Dez gave another account in Fire on Azusa. Vincent Synan did an interview that was posted on YouTube with two elderly folks in the early 1970's who had been children at the Azusa Street revival. One of them said that what drew people was the fact that people would come in and hear their languages, Japanese, or whatever, during the meetings. I've read accounts of the interpretations being verified by those who knew the languages naturally at well.

Our church has the basic position that all the spiritual gifts exist but some of the spiritual gifts are no longer common or active. Speaking in tongues is one of those. However, we did have a member who went on a trip to a foreign country. I do not remember the details of the situation, but she wound up having to help someone in the county who was in distress. Though she did not speak the language and the person did not speak English, her recounting was that for a period of time she could understand the person and also speak to them. She ministered to them and they prayed together. After the incident was over, they could no longer understand each other. The basic explanation of our pastor is that might have been a case of the Holy Spirit activating speaking in tongues.
 
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LinkH

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Eh - not really. There are very different theological streams in Charismatic circles. (Catholic, EOC, Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc)

Pentecostals are restricted to the Wesleyan Holiness theology family of denominations.

The A/G, the largest Pentecostal denomination in the world, would be the same or similar to Wesleyan in their soteriology-- understanding of salvation. But they don't believe in sanctification as a one-time event after salvation, which some Pentecostal denominations do, or used to. Any group that calls itself Pentecostal that I've encountered practices credo-baptism rather than infant baptism, a difference between them and Methodists. Pentecostals are almost all premillineal, usually pre-trib. Some denominations have pre-mil statements, but most people are pre-trib (unfortunately). I'm thinking mainly from a US perspective when I say this. The vast majority of Pentecostals, maybe 95%, are Trinitarian. As far as I know, the believe that everyone who is truly saved will speak in tongues is pretty much restricted to Oneness Pentecostalism. Many Pentecostals in the US, IMO, tend to really underemphasize water baptism, like a lot of evangelicals do. That isn't always true of Pentecostals overseas.
 
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