Son of God OR Son of man?

Mr. M

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Messiah Yeshua often referred to Himself as both The Son of God,
as well as the Son of man. Reading the use of both titles in the
Gospel of John suggest that He was as a man walking the earth,
both Son of God AND Son of man, at all times, simultaneously.
I have read some posts recently that imply that He was either/or,
depending on the context. A point open for discussion, hopefully
with scripture references.


John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven,
the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Here we read that the Son of man is is heaven, that He came down from heaven,
and has ascended into heaven. How does this relate to Messiah being the Son of God?
What I have found is that He made full claim, both publicly and privately to a few
chosen people, that He is in fact the Son of God.
While the works He performed were by the Son of man, in obedience to the
Spirit of God. So whose obedience was perfected? The Son of God?

Hebrews 5:
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things
which He suffered.

9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation
to all who obey Him,
10
called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,”
11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have
become dull of hearing.

This order of Melchizedek: pertains to being Son of God, or Son of man?
Hebrews 7:
1
For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God,
who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated
“king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,”
3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning
of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

This position held by the Son of God. would also apply to Melchizedek,
and his relationship to God. Melchizedek was not born of flesh, but by
the Son of God, for "all things were created through Him(the Son of God),
and for Him.

Colossians 1:
15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All things were created through Him and for Him.
17
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Melchizedek received tithes from Abraham. On whose behalf?
The Most High God and the Son of
God, by whom and for whom
he was created.
 

Jipsah

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Mr. M

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Wholly man and wholly God. Christianity 101
Amen. Some deny this, and are under an antichrist spirit, that reduce the significance
of the humanity of Christ by claiming His work was deity only. Hence the title of the thread,
not either/or, but both, with the humanity being the key to the Gospel.
Romans 8:
3
For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by
sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin:
He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk
according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The point is that becoming a man and surrendering His Will to the Father,
He served Him as a man, by the leading of the Spirit. A fact well attested to.
To reduce the significance of Christ's humanity by exalting His deity above
the Father's Will is an antichrist spirit.

1 John 2:
18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,
even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that
denieth the Father and the Son.

If you know who Christ is, you know that John is speaking of a man,
not the Son of God.

Galatians 3:
15
Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant,
yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say,
“And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

Hebrews 2:
9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death,
crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many
sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
14
Inasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise
took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death,
that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but
He took on him the seed of Abraham.

Who was made perfect, the Son of God? Or the Christ, the Spirit
of just men, made perfect.

1 John 4:
2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come
in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even
now already is it in the world.

To admit that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, but deny what He did as
the Son of man, and attribute His actions to deity, is to speak from an antichrist spirit.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through
Jesus Christ.

Such an error to see the title Christ, and not understand that this refers
to His humanity, not His deity. For Christ is the seed of Abraham. The promise
of the Father to Abraham, and the Spirit now perfected on the Cross, so that all
who believe may "live in holiness and righteousness all the days of their lives"
. Luke 1:75

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men,
the Man Christ Jesus.
 
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Mr. M

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The point is that becoming a man and surrendering His Will to the Father,
He served Him as a man, by the leading of the Spirit. A fact well attested to.
To reduce the significance of Christ's humanity by exalting His deity above
the Father's Will is an antichrist spirit.
The Man Christ Jesus.
 
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SkyWriting

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God created man in His image and likeness. So much like God a human could be God and God could be a human. Can you imagine looking into a child's eyes and know that God is looking at you.

God re-created man to be a reflection of God. And image of God.
As you define it, the baby would be invisible and just a Spirit.
 
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Eloy Craft

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God re-created man to be a reflection of God. And image of God.
As you define it, the baby would be invisible and just a Spirit.
Are you referring to the incarnation of God?What does it mean to be recreated man and to reflect God? Not sure how that works.
 
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SkyWriting

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Are you referring to the incarnation of God?What does it mean to be recreated man and to reflect God? Not sure how that works.
Nobody knows how it works.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
(The word for "make" includes the definition "re-make" and none of the definitions include Creation ExNihilo. )

Genesis 2:7
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
 
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Mr. M

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It is not "either/or" but "both/and."
Nobody knows how it works.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
(The word for "make" includes the definition "re-make" and none of the definitions include Creation ExNihilo. )

Genesis 2:7
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The Son of God is firstborn of all creation. The name above every name.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

The son of man pertains only to man, as he was intended to be,
conformed to the image
of the Son of God.
Consider this exchange:
John 1:
47
Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed,
in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him,
Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God;
thou art the King of Israel.
50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree,
believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open,
and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

While Nathanael confessed Messiah Yeshua as the Son of God, Yeshua always spoke of
His redemptive work being done as the son of man.

John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know
that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
John 13:
31
So, when he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man is glorified, and God
is glorified in Him.
32 If God is glorified in Him, God will also glorify Him in Himself, and glorify Him immediately.

As the Word of Truth, Yeshua identified Himself as the Son of God, for which He was accused
of blasphemy, and put to death as the Son of man.
 
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Der Alte

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The Son of God is firstborn of all creation. The name above every name.
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
The son of man pertains only to man, as he was intended to be, conformed to the image
of the Son of God.
Consider this exchange:

John 1:
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed,
in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him,
Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God;
thou art the King of Israel.
50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree,
believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open,
and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

While Nathanael confessed Messiah Yeshua as the Son of God, Yeshua always spoke of
His redemptive work being done as the son of man.

John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know
that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.

John 13:
31 So, when he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man is glorified, and God
is glorified in Him.
32 If God is glorified in Him, God will also glorify Him in Himself, and glorify Him immediately.

As the Word of Truth, Yeshua identified Himself as the Son of God, for which He was accused
of blasphemy, and put to death as the Son of man.
Thank you for your input. You might try factoring these verses into your studies.
2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Spirit. Thirty six (36) scripture which address/refer to Jesus as God,
[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
[2] Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1][/color], and the world knew him not.
[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]
[11] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]
[12] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה /ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14]
[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[ יהוה /YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].
Isa 6:1
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple
[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence before the world was created.].
[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.
[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]
[18] Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[19] Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.
[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[21] Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;
[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]
[31] Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:
[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].
[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[ יהוה /YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[ יהוה /YHWH, Deu 10:17].
[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[ יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה /YHWH, Isa 44:6]
A mere man cannot redeem mankind.
(Psa 49:6) (49:7) Of them that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches?
(Psa 49:7) (49:8) No man can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him -
(Psa 49:8) (49:9) For too costly is the redemption of their soul, and must be let alone for ever -
(Psa 49:9) (49:10) That he should still live alway, that he should not see the pit.
The second vs. numbers are from the Jewish translation.​



 
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Mr. M

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A mere man cannot redeem mankind.
(Psa 49:6) (49:7) Of them that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches?
(Psa 49:7) (49:8) No man can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him -
(Psa 49:8) (49:9) For too costly is the redemption of their soul, and must be let alone for ever -
(Psa 49:9) (49:10) That he should still live alway, that he should not see the pit.
The second vs. numbers are from the Jewish translation.
All of the above have been noted. The OP has no intention of minimizing the fact
that Christ Jesus is "our Lord and our God". Of course, He was no mere man.
He did
take on flesh and stand in the estate of the son of man for many reasons,
not the least of which was to perfect the seed of Abraham,
"the spirits of just men made perfect". Hebrews 12:23

Galatians 3:
15
Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet
if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,”
as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.
Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but He took on him
the seed of Abraham.

The point is to not allow emphasis on that divinity to minimize what
He did for us on the Cross as the son of man. He shed His blood for us.
His was an act of obedience, made no less significant by people who
say "Yeah, but He is God, so it is not the same". !?!?!? No, it is so much more.

 
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Messiah Yeshua often referred to Himself as both The Son of God,
as well as the Son of man. Reading the use of both titles in the
Gospel of John suggest that He was as a man walking the earth,
both Son of God AND Son of man, at all times, simultaneously.
I have read some posts recently that imply that He was either/or,
depending on the context. A point open for discussion, hopefully
with scripture references.


John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven,
the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Here we read that the Son of man is is heaven, that He came down from heaven,
and has ascended into heaven. How does this relate to Messiah being the Son of God?
What I have found is that He made full claim, both publicly and privately to a few
chosen people, that He is in fact the Son of God.
While the works He performed were by the Son of man, in obedience to the
Spirit of God. So whose obedience was perfected? The Son of God?

Hebrews 5:
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things
which He suffered.
9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation
to all who obey Him,
10
called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,”
11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have
become dull of hearing.

This order of Melchizedek: pertains to being Son of God, or Son of man?
Hebrews 7:
1
For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God,
who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated
“king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,”
3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning
of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

This position held by the Son of God. would also apply to Melchizedek,
and his relationship to God. Melchizedek was not born of flesh, but by
the Son of God, for "all things were created through Him(the Son of God),
and for Him.

Colossians 1:
15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All things were created through Him and for Him.
17
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Melchizedek received tithes from Abraham. On whose behalf?
The Most High God and the Son of
God, by whom and for whom
he was created.

His use of "son of man" refers to Daniel 7, where a person "like a son of man" enters heaven to be with the Ancient of Days, the Father, at Jesus' ascension. Who is he? The nations then worship him, so he is God.

The title from Daniel 7 is Jesus' use to claim he is God and to hide his Messiahship until he would finally make his status as God clear during his "kangaroo" trial.
 
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