Son of God or Son of Man? Or Both?

[mkgal1]

Benedict XVI: Gregory Nazianzen – “What Has Not Been Assumed Has Not Been Healed”

Gregory gave great prominence to Christ’s full humanity: to redeem man in the totality of his body, soul and spirit, Christ assumed all the elements of human nature, otherwise man would not have been saved.

Disputing the heresy of Apollinaris, who held that Jesus Christ had not assumed a rational mind, Gregory tackled the problem in the light of the mystery of salvation:

“What has not been assumed has not been healed”, and if Christ had not been “endowed with a rational mind, how could he have been a man?”

It was precisely our mind and our reason that needed and needs the relationship, the encounter with God in Christ.

Having become a man, Christ gave us the possibility of becoming, in turn, like him. Nazianzus exhorted people:

“Let us seek to be like Christ, because Christ also became like us: to become gods through him since he himself, through us, became a man. He took the worst upon himself to make us a gift of the best”.~Benedict XVI: Gregory Nazianzen – “What Has Not Been Assumed Has Not Been Healed”

.....isn't that part of the importance of Jesus having Thomas touch His body?

So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”~John 20​

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[mkgal1]

Sometimes you're correct, it's not good to just quote a man because you trust that man. But other times it's a matter of an Ah Ha moment where you simply realize that 'This man' has worded his explanation in a way that totally makes sense to your understanding, and you could not have worded it better yourself! So in that instance you are giving the thumbs up the explanation, not to the man.

This is an example of just that

 

[mkgal1]

Will Jesus flesh and bones ever be found?

He did show His physical body after the resurrection (like I quoted above).

 

[mkgal1]

If someone stabs you would you bleed blood and water?

Is this in reference to when He was stabbed on the cross and blood and water came from the wound? Are you suggesting that's evidence that He wasn't human?

We would ALL expel blood and water if we had fluid in the membrane around our heart and lungs. That's not the sign of some alien being---it's human biology. This is what I learned in Bible study years ago:

Prior to death, the sustained rapid heartbeat caused by hypovolemic shock also causes fluid to gather in the sack around the heart and around the lungs. This gathering of fluid in the membrane around the heart is called pericardial effusion, and the fluid gathering around the lungs is called pleural effusion. This explains why, after Jesus died and a Roman soldier thrust a spear through Jesus’ side, piercing both the lungs and the heart, blood and water came from His side just as John recorded in his Gospel (John 19:34).

 

[bling]

Y'shua/Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God and the Son of Man. If God is pure, holy and sinless and all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and Y'shua/Jesus was made sin for us all, then how could Y'shua/Jesus be God and man?

What do you think "made sin" means when it refers to Christ since an alternative translation is this:
2 Corinthians 5:21 Or be a sin offering

 

[mkgal1]

Hi mlgal1,

I do agree with you on the "Original Sin" doctrine. The one thing that is Biblically correct is that first time Eve sinned and Adam followed her, humans were changed some how. We lost our covering of light. For a lack of a better word, we now have a "sin gene", that allows us the knowledge of good and evil and the resulting disobedience. Does "Original Sin" cause us to sin, no, we all have the choice to follow God or Satan. As you have stated, the Bible says that all have chosen that path.

As for Y'shua/Jesus being conceived, the Bible is quite clear that he was conceived of the God's Spirit, through Miryam/Mary.

I'd like to hear more of what the Spirit says to you.

Shalom

That's a good way of putting it. I agree.

 

[mkgal1]

Thanks! No rush....

I would be interested to see how/why they came to that conclusion, because as we are both agree, whoever came up with that unusual theory about the meaning of Psalms 51:5 didn't get it from the Bible.
.

It's not "from the Bible"....it's more from the history of David's parents (which is all recorded in the Bible....but there are some passages that seem to make more sense if this is true).

This is what I have so far:

Jesse, or Ishai, was the father of David. As such, he was an important personality but we do not know much about him. The Biblical record is scant and tells us very little about this direct ancestor of the Messianic King.

There is an opinion that Ishai separated from his wife after he came to learn that there were some who questioned the legal propriety of the marriage of Boaz to Ruth. As a descendent of Moabites, he was, perhaps, prohibited from living with a full-fledged Jewess. He then separated from his wife. He told his non-fully Jewish maid to prepare herself so he can cohabit with her and in this fashion fulfill the commandment of procreation (the Midrash invokes a conditional freeing arrangement that renders her permitted for those with a tainted lineage). In the meantime, Ishai’s wife was distressed for she desired more children from her sainted husband. The maidservant suggested that they do as Rachel and Leah – that they change place under the cover of darkness so that Ishai cohabit with his wife instead of the maidservant. The plan worked and the wife conceived and bore a child. This was David. When Jesse and his sons saw this, they suspected her of adultery but they held their peace for 28 years, until Samuel came to Ishai’s house to anoint the new king (Yalkut Hamechiri, Psalms 118:28, retold in Sefer Hatodya, p322-323).

http://www.jewishpress.com/sections...ing-david-a-bold-voice-of-silence/2006/05/31/


....this can explain why David was treated with such contempt (and why he wasn't brought forward at first when Samuel came to Jesse's [Ishai's] house.

I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother’s sons

.

Out of envy for Your House, they ravaged me; the disgraces of those who revile You have fallen upon me . . .

Those who sit by the gate talk about me. I am the taunt of drunkards . . .

Disgrace breaks my heart, and I am left deathly sick.

I hope for solace, but there is none; and for someone to comfort me, but I find no one.

They put gall into my meal, and give me vinegar to quench my thirst . . . (Psalm 69)1

This psalm describes the life of a poor, despised and lowly individual, who lacks even a single friend to comfort him. It is the voice of a tormented soul who has experienced untold humiliation and disgrace. Through no apparent cause of his own, he is surrounded by enemies who wish to cut him down; even his own brothers are strangers to him, ravaging and reviling him.

Amazingly, this is the voice of the mighty King David, righteous and beloved servant of G‑d, feared and awed by all.

King David had many challenges throughout his life. But at what point did this great individual feel so alone, so disgraced, and so undeserving of love and friendship?

What caused King David to face such an intense ignominy, to be shunned by his own brothers in his home (“I have become a stranger to my brothers”), by the Torah sages who sat in judgment at the gates (“those who sit by the gate talk about me”) and by the drunkards on the street corners (“I am the taunt of drunkards”)? What had King David done to arouse such ire and contempt? And was there no one, at this time in his life, who would provide him with love, comfort and friendship?

This psalm, in which King David passionately gives voice to the heaviest burdens of his soul, refers to a period of twenty-eight years, from his earliest childhood until he was coronated as king of the people of Israel by the prophet Samuel.

David was born into the illustrious family of Yishai (Jesse), who served as the head of the sanhedrin (supreme court of Torah law), and was one of the most distinguished leaders of his generation. Yishai was a man of such greatness that the Talmud (Shabbat 55b) observes that “Yishai was one of only four righteous individuals who died solely due to the instigation of the serpent”—i.e., only because death was decreed upon the human race when Adamand Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge at the serpent’s instigation, not due to any sin or flaw of his own. David was the youngest in his family, which included seven other illustrious and charismatic brothers.

Yet, when David was born, this prominent family greeted his birth with utter derision and contempt. As David describes quite literally in the psalm, “I was a stranger to my brothers, a foreigner to my mother’s sons . . . they put gall in my meal, and gave me vinegar to quench my thirst.”

David was not permitted to eat with the rest of his family, but was assigned to a separate table in the corner. He was given the task of shepherd because “they hoped that a wild beast would come and kill him while he was performing his duties,”2 and for this reason was sent to pasture in dangerous areas full of lions and bears.3

Only one individual throughout David’s youth was pained by his unjustified plight, and felt a deep and unconditional bond of love for the child whom she alone knew was undoubtedly pure.

This was King David’s mother, Nitzevet bat Adael, who felt the intensity of her youngest child’s pain and rejection as her own.

Torn and anguished by David’s unwarranted degradation, yet powerless to stop it, Nitzevet stood by the sidelines, in solidarity with him, shunned herself, as she too cried rivers of tears, awaiting the time when justice would be served.

It would take twenty-eight long years of assault and rejection, suffering and degradation until that justice would finally begin to materialize. ~Son of God or Son of Man? Or Both?

 

[Phantasman]

He did show His physical body after the resurrection (like I quoted above).

If he showed a physical body, they would have recognized him immediately, wouldn't they?

Thomas heard his voice and believed.

"My sheep hear my voice"

Paul says:
1 Corinth:
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

If the flesh rose, it would need a garment to cover it's shamefulness.

"In this world, those who put on garments are better than the garments. In the Kingdom of Heaven, the garments are better than those that put them on."- Gospel of Philip

 

[mkgal1]

If he showed a physical body, they would have recognized him immediately, wouldn't they?

Thomas heard his voice and believed.

"My sheep hear my voice"

Paul says:
1 Corinth:
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

If the flesh rose, it would need a garment to cover it's shamefulness.

"In this world, those who put on garments are better than the garments. In the Kingdom of Heaven, the garments are better than those that put them on."- Gospel of Philip

How do you reconcile that belief with these verses:

Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord. 21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”

Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed?

 

[andy walker]

God. Is what he wants to be. His Son came to Earth to find out why after so many enforced rules, the human race were still not responding. He experienced human frailty for real and then went back to set a date and time when it would be expected that we would sort ourselves out. In the meantime he gave rules to abide by and warnings to watch out for. When he returns we will be judged on those rules, it's not hard really is it?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Entirely human? If someone stabs you would you bleed blood and water?

If someone jabbed a spear into my side, piercing my pericardial cavity, yes.

Will Jesus flesh and bones ever be found?

No, because He's risen from the dead and seated at the right hand of the Father in glory.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[toLiJC]

Y'shua/Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God and the Son of Man. If God is pure, holy and sinless and all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and Y'shua/Jesus was made sin for us all, then how could Y'shua/Jesus be God and man?

He is the only begotten firstborn Son of the true God among human beings, while His spirit is the archetype of the holy man

Blessings

 

[Phantasman]

How do you reconcile that belief with these verses:

What did Thomas see with? His human eyes, or his spiritual mind?

What did Stephen see with? His human eyes, or his spiritual mind?

Acts 7:
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

And Jesus eliminated Sauls human eyes to make Paul see him in his mind:

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

The Spirit of Truth reveals truth in the mind:

John:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John:
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This is in complete line with the Gospel of Mary:

10) I said to Him, Lord, how does he who sees the vision see it, through the soul or through the spirit?
11) The Savior answered and said, He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind that is between the two that is what sees the vision...

And in complete line with Philip:

Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way. There is a rebirth and an image of rebirth. It is certainly necessary to be born again through the image. Which one? Resurrection. The image must rise again through the image. The bridal chamber and the image must enter through the image into the truth: this is the restoration. Not only must those who produce the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, do so, but have produced them for you. If one does not acquire them, the name ("Christian") will also be taken from him. But one receives the unction of the [...] of the power of the cross. This power the apostles called "the right and the left." For this person is no longer a Christian but a Christ.

The church of the flesh teaches of the flesh. So you seek truth through fleshly ideas. What happened to Jesus flesh when they buried it? A mystery to the ignorant. The truth is that "we ate it" as he asked us too. See the spirit, not the flesh, or you will follow the flesh (to it's death).

The Spirit leads us, not the written words that can be corrupted by men. The Spirit shows us Truth in ALL written words that influence who we are (mind).

John:
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You will see the three, not as men say they are, but what the Spirit of Truth reveals. We are one mind with Christ, and one mind with the Holy Spirit. And all minds of the Father.

Romans:
5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.

This is the mystery of "one".

 

[ViaCrucis]

If he showed a physical body, they would have recognized him immediately, wouldn't they?

Shock and grief are powerful, that some of Jesus' followers wouldn't recognize Him immediately shouldn't be entirely surprising.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Phantasman]

Shock and grief are powerful, that some of Jesus' followers wouldn't recognize Him immediately shouldn't be entirely surprising.

-CryptoLutheran

(sigh)

 

[ViaCrucis]

(sigh)

Not everything is grand and spectacular. Sometimes people are just people and behave like people do.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[mkgal1]

What did Thomas see with? His human eyes, or his spiritual mind?

It seems to me Jesus instructed Thomas to employ several of his senses (he was hearing Jesus' voice, touching His wounds, and seeing with his eyes:


》》》27Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side;

This is the mystery of "one".

I can't argue with that. On that much I will agree.

 

[mkgal1]

That's not the only passage--this is even more direct:

Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see—for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” 40And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and feet. 41While they were still in disbelief because of their joy and amazement, He asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” So they gave Him a piece of broiled fish, and He took it and ate it in front of them.~Luke 24:40-43

 

[Butch5]

Y'shua/Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God and the Son of Man. If God is pure, holy and sinless and all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and Y'shua/Jesus was made sin for us all, then how could Y'shua/Jesus be God and man?

Jesus didn't sin. He came out of God and was born of a woman. Thus He is the Son of God and the Son of Man.

 

[Phantasman]

That's not the only passage--this is even more direct:

I don't read paraphrased scriptures (or Bibles).

1599 Geneva Bible:
27 After said he to Thomas, Put thy finger here, and see mine hands, and put forth thine hand, and put it into my side, and be not faithless, but faithful.

28 Then Thomas answered, and said unto him, Thou art my Lord, and my God.

29 a]">[a]Jesus said unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou believest: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.

It never said Thomas physically did as Jesus asked. And it would not have mattered if he did.

The part that applies to you and I, I highlighted.

If Jesus said that the flesh profits nothing, he wouldn't have changed his mind after the resurrection.