Son of God or Son of Man? Or Both?

[Keith O'Der]

Y'shua/Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God and the Son of Man. If God is pure, holy and sinless and all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and Y'shua/Jesus was made sin for us all, then how could Y'shua/Jesus be God and man?

 

[mkgal1]

I don't really feel theologically qualified to answer you with certainty.....but are you referring to "original sin"? I've heard that rationalized by saying that Jesus wasn't conceived of a man....and that "original sin" is "passed down" through the man (based on this passage):

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.
~Romans 5:12

​

I'm not really convinced of the whole "original sin" thing, however.

​

​

 

[St_Worm2]

Y'shua/Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God and the Son of Man. If God is pure, holy and sinless and all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and Y'shua/Jesus was made sin for us all, then how could Y'shua/Jesus be God and man.

It's a mystery.

The Lord, who never sinned personally, was "made sin" for us in the same way that we (who are neither innocent nor righteous) are made righteous because of Him, by imputation. God "declares" Him sin our our behalf, counting our sins to His account as if He was the one who had committed them.

BTW, questioning the validity of either the doctrine of the Trinity and/or the dual nature of Christ (if that's the direction you're intending to take this thread) cannot happen here, as this too is a Christian's only board.

Yours and His,
David

2 Corinthians 5
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
.​

 

[mkgal1]

Jesus came to radically undo this illusory scapegoat mechanism, which is found in every culture in some form. He became the scapegoat to reveal the universal lie of scapegoating. Note that John the Baptist said, “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin [singular] of the world” (John 1:29). It seems “the sin of the world” is ignorant killing, hatred, and fear. As Blaise Pascal so insightfully wrote, “People never do evil so completely and so cheerfully as when they do it with a religious conviction.” [2] We see this in much of the United States in our own time, with churches on every corner.

The Gospel is a highly subversive document. It painstakingly illustrates how the systems of both church and state (Caiaphas and Pilate) conspired to condemn Jesus. Throughout most of history, church and state have sought plausible scapegoats to carry their own shame and guilt. So Jesus became the sinned-against one to reveal the hidden nature of scapegoating, and we would forever see how wrong power can be—even religious power! (See John 16:8-11 and Romans 8:3.) Finally Jesus says from the cross: “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they’re doing” (Luke 23:34). The scapegoat mechanism largely operates in the unconscious; people do not know what they are doing. Scapegoaters do not know they are scapegoating, but they think they are doing a “holy duty for God” (John 16:2). You see why inner work, shadow work, and honest self-knowledge are all essential to any healthy religion.


~https://cac.org/jesus-reveals-lie-scapegoating-2016-10-13/

 

[St_Worm2]

I'm not really convinced of the whole "original sin" thing, however.

Hi MKGAL1, if you were the Barbie Doll brand manager for Mattel, and you came into work one day and found that thousands of Barbie Dolls (that had just rolled off the assembly line) were all missing their right arms, would you scratch your head and try to figure out what happened to each and every doll individually, or would you look for a proximate/common cause to the problem?

The most common saying of all is "nobody's perfect", and we all know how true that is There is no character trait that is more universally obvious in our race than the fact that we are ALL sinners .. e.g. Romans 3:9-12, 23, (save the One who did not have a human father), which means we were "flawed" from the beginning (since we are ALL missing our "right arms" ).

However, if our sin nature .. e.g. Ephesians 2:1-3, was not the result of our first parents' sin, then there is only One other Being who could have caused our race-wide birth defect which, if true, would make Him the Author of sin, moral evil, and death, not us.

Can you think of any other way that this could have happened to the lot of us?

Yours and His,
David

Psalm 51
5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
.​

 

[mkgal1]

I don't wish to derail this thread any more than I already have. But...this verse:

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me~Psalm 51:5

From what I'm remembering right off the top of my head, had to do with the conception and the
"sinful" relationship between mother (Nitzevet) and father (Jesse)....not sin of the baby David.

 

[SBC]

Y'shua/Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God and the Son of Man. If God is pure, holy and sinless and all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and Y'shua/Jesus was made sin for us all, then how could Y'shua/Jesus be God and man?

Jesus had a "lawful" father - Joseph - "LAWful" according to Jewish Law and Roman Law.

Jesus had an "promised" father - Abraham - the promised father of men of nations.

^ those "father's" suited Jesus while he was on earth. ie Son of man.

Jesus had a "heavenly Father" - God - thee God that declared he would BE A FATHER
......................................................To Jesus

^ that "Father" suited Jesus while he was on earth. ie Son of God.

John 6
[42] And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know?

Heb 2
[16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Rom 7
[16] Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Heb 1
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

God Bless,
SBC

 

[St_Worm2]

I don't wish to derail this thread any more than I already have.

I don't believe you've done anything to derail this thread by broaching the subject of Original Sin (as that topic seems inherent in Keith's OP).

The words of the heretic Friar Richard Rohr from your second post is a different matter however, as I believe his words would normally derail any discussion on a Christian's only board.

You continue:

But...this verse: Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me~Psalm 51:5

From what I'm remembering right off the top of my head, had to do with the conception and the "sinful" relationship between mother (Nitzevet) and father (Jesse)....not sin of the baby David.

That conclusion cannot be reached contextually, not even close, nor is there a single shred of Biblical or extra-Biblical evidence for it that I'm aware of. Please inform us, chapter and verse, if there is.

Thanks!

--David

 

[mkgal1]

The words of the heretic Friar Richard Rohr

If he were a heretic....I don't believe he'd still be in good standing with--and operating within-- the Catholic church.

 

[mkgal1]

Please inform us, chapter and verse, if there is.

I don't have the time today....but I will get back to you (from what I recall, it's not in the Bible but in Jewish literature...? ).

 

[St_Worm2]

...how could Y'shua/Jesus be God and man?

Hi Keith, I just realized you are pretty new around here, so first off, WELCOME TO CF ..

That said, here's part B of the Athanasian Creed that may or may not be helpful to this discussion:

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of His mother, born in the world. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty; From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; and shall give account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.​

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - I might as well include the Symbol of Chalcedon. This is the whole body of this particular creed, just FYI.

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [coessential] with us according to the manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.
.

​

 

[St_Worm2]

I don't have the time today....but I will get back to you (from what I recall, it's not in the Bible but in Jewish literature...? ).

Thanks! No rush....

I would be interested to see how/why they came to that conclusion, because as we are both agree, whoever came up with that unusual theory about the meaning of Psalms 51:5 didn't get it from the Bible.
.

 

[St_Worm2]

If he were a heretic....I don't believe he'd still be in good standing with--and operating within-- the Catholic church.

I'm not sure about his present standing within the RCC, however, it's clear that heretics have existed in the RCC (and in other churches as well, of course) for years/decades before finally being brought under the discipline of the church.

The Episcopal church in American had such an individual within its ranks, John Spong, whose teachings/beliefs would have gotten him banned immediately if he tried posting them on any of the "Christian's Only" boards here at CF, even this one.

Yours and His,
David

 

[mkgal1]

I'm not sure about his present standing within the RCC

>>>>>>Fr. Richard is a Franciscan priest in good standing of the New Mexico Province of Our Lady Guadalupe. Fr. Richard, while grounded in his Catholic faith, is a globally recognized ecumenical teacher bearing witness to the universal awakening within Christian mysticism and the Perennial Tradition.
https://cac.org/faq/is-fr-richard-in-good-standing-with-the-roman-catholic-church/

 

[St_Worm2]

>>>>>>Fr. Richard is a Franciscan priest in good standing of the New Mexico Province of Our Lady Guadalupe. Fr. Richard, while grounded in his Catholic faith, is a globally recognized ecumenical teacher bearing witness to the universal awakening within Christian mysticism and the Perennial Tradition.
https://cac.org/faq/is-fr-richard-in-good-standing-with-the-roman-catholic-church/

As I said earlier, being a member in good standing, especially when we're talking about a giant church like the RCC, does not necessarily mean that everyone who is presently in "good standing" is either orthodox and/or Biblical in their teachings/beliefs (though we can hope that such persons will, eventually, be brought under church discipline and recant their views .. unless they can prove that their teachings, rather than the church's, are correct, of course).

I find it interesting that he found it necessary to spell his standing with the church out for all to see. That, in itself, is telling

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - I should point out that since the above is true (he is in good standing with the church), that he should not be referred to as a "heretic" (as that title is imposed by the church). Rather, that his teachings, at least many of them, are heretical.

 

[paul1149]

Y'shua/Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God and the Son of Man. If God is pure, holy and sinless and all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and Y'shua/Jesus was made sin for us all, then how could Y'shua/Jesus be God and man?

Hi Keith,
As David has written here, sin was imputed to Christ when He was on the cross. Jesus is the antitype of the scapegoat in the Mosaic Covenant. Two goats were chosen yearly, the high priest would lay hands on them, imparting the sins, known and unknown, of Israel upon them. Then one was sacrificed and the other was released into the wilderness, and Israel's sins of the past year were forgiven.

In a similar way, sin was imputed to Christ as He was on the cross. But Christ was not inherently sinful. He was born by the power of the Holy Spirit, without human father, and therefore was without any inherited sin. And neither did He commit any sin during His time on earth. He "always did what was pleasing to the Father", and when Christ was baptized, the Holy Spirit came on Him "and remained". Thus Paul writes, "God made Him who knew no sin, to become sin, that we might become the righteousness of God" (2Cor 5). Jesus took our sin upon Himself, took it with Him to the grave, and arose without it, leaving it dead in the grave forever.

When the Bible says "all have sinned", it refers to the children of Adam. But Christ's birth was adventitious, and escaped the corruption of Adam. In 1Cor 15, Paul refers to Christ as "the last Adam". By His atonement He has created a new spiritual lineage for all who believe in Him. As His bride, we are joined in one-flesh covenant relationship with Him.

 

[SkyWriting]

Y'shua/Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God and the Son of Man. If God is pure, holy and sinless and all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and Y'shua/Jesus was made sin for us all, then how could Y'shua/Jesus be God and man?

Man physically, God Spiritually.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Y'shua/Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God and the Son of Man. If God is pure, holy and sinless and all men have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and Y'shua/Jesus was made sin for us all, then how could Y'shua/Jesus be God and man?

The Definition of Chalcedon gives us this, that our Lord Jesus was "like us in all ways, but without sin". St. Peter writes, "He committed no sin, neither was there deceit found in His mouth." (1 Peter 2:22); the Apostle Paul having said, "He who was without sin became sin" (2 Corinthians 5:21), this does not mean that He became a sinner, it means that the burden of our sin fell upon Him as He made atonement for us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Man physically, God Spiritually.

The Lord Jesus was and is entirely human, not just physically, but spiritually as well, being of a "rational body and rational soul"; the idea that Jesus was a human body but with His Deity taking the place of the human soul is the heresy of Apollinarianism. Jesus is fully human and fully God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Keith O'Der]

I don't really feel theologically qualified to answer you with certainty.....but are you referring to "original sin"? I've heard that rationalized by saying that Jesus wasn't conceived of a man....and that "original sin" is "passed down" through the man (based on this passage):

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.
~Romans 5:12

​

I'm not really convinced of the whole "original sin" thing, however.

​

​

Hi mlgal1,

I do agree with you on the "Original Sin" doctrine. The one thing that is Biblically correct is that first time Eve sinned and Adam followed her, humans were changed some how. We lost our covering of light. For a lack of a better word, we now have a "sin gene", that allows us the knowledge of good and evil and the resulting disobedience. Does "Original Sin" cause us to sin, no, we all have the choice to follow God or Satan. As you have stated, the Bible says that all have chosen that path.

As for Y'shua/Jesus being conceived, the Bible is quite clear that he was conceived of the God's Spirit, through Miryam/Mary.

I'd like to hear more of what the Spirit says to you.

Shalom