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Son of Desert, Son of Sin, Son of Evil

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by KerimF, Jun 25, 2022.

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  1. KerimF

    KerimF New Member

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    It is amazing when, sometimes, people don’t mind playing the ignorant though they are not less knowledgeable than I am.

    If I ask them: Someone is called ‘son of desert’, does this mean that ‘desert’ is his father?
    I hear them say: Of course not, it simply means; he used to live in a desert.

    If I ask them: Someone is called ‘son of sin’, does this mean that ‘sin’ is his father?
    I hear them say: It just means that he is the fruit of unmarried parents.

    If I ask them: Someone is called ‘son of evil’, does this mean that evil is his father?”
    I hear them say: This simply means that he used to be evil.

    In these three cases (expressions) people understand very well the word ‘son’. And they don’t complain, at all, that these expressions are nonsense since ‘desert’, ‘sin’ or ‘evil’ cannot or don't breed and have children.


    But if I ask them: Someone is known as ‘Son of God’, does this mean that ‘God’ is His Father?
    I hear them say: Oh yes, ‘God’ has to be his father because there are no other meanings of the word ‘son’.

    I hope you got the point

    The question is:
    What did prevent Jesus to say “I and God are one” instead of “I and my Father are one”.

    Please note that whom Jesus calls ‘my Father”, He also calls Him Our Father in Heaven (therefore, not just His Father). I mean; the noun ‘father’ has also different meanings as the word ‘son’ has that most people pretend not knowing.

    So let me see if someone here discovered, as I did, how the practical real meanings of ‘God’ and ‘the Father in Heaven’ (as mentioned in Jesus message) are also based on Love.


    Please note that I am here just to share with you what I have in mind and not to convince anyone about anything.

    Jesus only (on the Gospel and not anyone else) saved me from my ignorance about life. I guess you know that every human baby is born with this greatest weakness, ‘ignorance’. But it was called for our ancient primitive ancestors (kids of humanity) ‘the Original Sin’. In the far past (if not now too), the universal belief (among Jews and Pagans) was that any serious weakness in one’s body is due to sinning.

    Fortunately everyone here is not less intelligent than I am and has also the Gospel as I have. This is why I said: I am here not to convince anyone about anything but to share with you what I have in mind (the logical answers that Jesus, on the Gospel, helped me to know).

    Cheers,
    Kerim
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2022
  2. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Context is the key.

    In the context of the New Testament, Jesus is the son of God in a very unique and special meaning - coming from Him and being equal to Him. It is not just some figure of speech, he was literally born of a virgin.
     
  3. KerimF

    KerimF New Member

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    Sorry, would you please be clearer.
    I mean; do you say that Jesus tells me that the word 'God' refers to my/our Father in Heaven alone; much like the God of Islam (Allah) is... the one-of-his-kind Supernatural Being... the Creator?

    Thank you.
     
  4. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Depends on the context. There are so called "gods", but only one and unique God, the Creator. Jesus is one with Him and begotten by Him.
     
  5. KerimF

    KerimF New Member

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    If I got you well, it seems you see Jesus much like Mohammad of Islam but at a much higher position before God whom you are shy to name explicitly "the Father in Heaven".

    By the way, even in the material world, if two persons tell us they are one, they mean, speaking practically, they have just One Will towards any outsider. This is also clear when someone contacts a company {C} owned by two partners {A} and {B}. To this person, contacting {C} is also contacting {A}, {B} or both. And contacting {A} or {B} is actually contacting {C}.

    It happens that the image of God in me is not of one-of-his-kind being (as Allah of Islam, for example). It is about God {C}; the One Will of a Divine Being {A} who didn't need to be incarnated (my Father in Heaven) and a Divine Being {B} who was incarnated (Jesus Christ) to show me that God is indeed a Supernatural Loving Will, not a supernatural powerful ruler looking for worshipers. They both are unified, since before Creation, by the Divine Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit.

    Am I imagining things?!
    Even in the material world, one of his kind being cannot live what we may call 'chemical love'.
    Also, in the Spiritual Realm, the Spirit of Real Love cannot exist to one of his kind Divine Being; no matter how powerful He might be.

    But let us recall that a selfish master could be clever enough to keep telling his followers (the modern word of slaves) that he does love them... as long they obey and praise him; an incredible loving master indeed!
     
  6. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    I am afraid I am from a different cultural "river", so we do not understand each other.
     
  7. KerimF

    KerimF New Member

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    Please don't worry, even Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, couldn't understand well what Jesus was saying.
    The good news is that, millions, if not billions, around the world are also from your cultural 'river', so you are safe; the world loves you.
     
  8. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    I do not worry, you are not Jesus. You are just from Syria, living among muslims. So your style of thinking, associations and vocabulary are not for me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2022
  9. KerimF

    KerimF New Member

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    Of course, I am not Jesus. I am just a student of Jesus.

    And it is not your fault for having no idea yet that when I say to my Muslim friends that my God is the Loving 'One Will' of my Father in Heaven and Jesus unified by the Holy Spirit I am telling them the greatest blasphemy in Islam. I thought every Christian knows this.
    To be clearer, I guess it is well known that God's Unconditional Love {Matthew 5:44-45} contradicts clearly Allah's rules (mainly those related to the right of self-defense) which are imposed on Muslims.

    Fortunately, Jesus let me be born and live among open minded people; no matter if they were Jews, Muslims, Christians or even Atheists (sorry, no news in the world is allowed to say this, since March 2011). So my Muslim friends, since I was teenager (I am 73 now), used to just worry about me because, as they believe, I will end up, sooner or later, in their Allah's Hell (I guess you heard of it) while they will be welcomed in Allah's paradise... where they will miss me as they usually add.

    By the way, I never belonged to any culture. And by living God's Unconditional Love towards all others as Heaven rises the sun on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust, I used to be real free always (thanks to my Divine All-Knowledge Teacher, Jesus my God). Naturally, I also understand that living God's Love, as revealed and lived by Jesus, is a crime of treason in any culture. So Jesus couldn't be seen as a traitor when He forgave His killers on the cross because He wasn't a member of any formal group (religious or political).

    Anyway, thank you for your sincerity which is the greatest priceless gift that a human can give to another.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2022
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  10. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    The answer to the question of what does "Son of God" mean is given in the words of the Nicene Creed.

    "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen.

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten of Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father. God of God, Light of Light, truly God of truly God. Begotten, not created, of the same Essence as the Father; by whom all things were made. Who for us human beings and our salvation came down from heaven, and was made flesh by the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary He became human. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and on the third day rose again in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, His kingdom has no end.

    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Life-Giver, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son], who together with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, who spoke through the Prophets.

    And in one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

    We confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

    And we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the Age to Come. Amen.
    "

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  11. KerimF

    KerimF New Member

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    All you said is right.
    Now I will bother you with another question (though its answer is known to me, thanks to Jesus):
    For which 'end' purpose I am created?

    For instance, I guess you know already that, to Muslims and likely to Jews (if not to Pagans too), humans are created to obey, worship and glorify their Creator. And, for fulfilling this purpose, there are Heavenly rules and rituals to be followed and observed as well as possible.

    Thank you.
     
  12. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    To be human.
    To be radically human like Jesus.
    And to enjoy God and all His creation forever.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  13. SamanthaAnastasia

    SamanthaAnastasia Just a library lady

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    I think you’re having an issue with the understanding of the Incarnation (Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Word) in relation to the Trinity (Father, Son, & Holy Spirit).
    There a variety of views.
    However, the oldest are: Nestorianism - Wikipedia which lead to the Nestorian schism - Wikipedia in 431
    (interestingly enough “the medieval Nestorian movement survives in the Assyrian Church of the East, most widely in Iraq, Syria and Iran”)
    Miaphysitism - Wikipedia Which lead to schism and the Council of Chalcedon - Wikipedia
    The Filioque - Wikipedia which lead to the
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism

    And the Trinity - Wikipedia
     
  14. KerimF

    KerimF New Member

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    I hear from this that the end purpose is supposed to be to:
    [1] 'enjoy God'.
    [2] enjoy His creation (I guess you mean humans).

    Sorry, being a spiritual rational man I used analyzing every idea I hear of (scientific or else) logically (this is how I knew, after reading the Gospel attentively, that Jesus is indeed my God, not just a man, made famous):

    [1] if the end/main purpose for which I am created is 'to enjoy my Creator', shouldn't I believe that the joy in/of my Creator depends on the amount of certain services that humans are supposed to do for Him?

    [2] if the end/main purpose for which I am created is 'to enjoy all His creation' (including me, I guess), shouldn't I believe that my Creator doesn't have the means to do it by Himself? I will likely surprise you by saying that indeed my Creator cannot let me join His Realm of Love and Joy.
    God's Love (of Jesus and my Father in Heaven, unified by the Holy Spirit) gave me (and any other human) just the opportunity to live God's Unconditional Love towards all others on earth as it is in Heaven. So, it is up to me to choose between following my natural instincts of survival, superiority and selfishness to name a few and living God's Love towards others unconditionally though it contradicts clearly all these instincts. I chose the latter because it gives me the greatest growing joy in me I have in my life. We like it or not, True Love, hence God's Love, cannot be imposed on someone to be lived; otherwise it could be anything but True Love... it would be just a sort of business in a master/slave game.

    So Jesus came to give me the Light of Knowledge I was looking for, so that I can feed continuously my soul with God's Joy, with no confusion and fear. Jesus is indeed the Path on which I was able reaching God's Realm of Love in which I live now even on earth.
     
  15. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    By enjoy God and His creation I mean what the Apostle St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 where he says that God will be all in all, and what St. John of Patmos says in the Apocalypse, that God will dwell with us forever in the renewal of all things "new heavens and new earth". I mean what Paul also says in 1 Corinthians 13, as it pertains to love.

    To be human is the utmost vocation we can have. To love the Lord our God and to love our neighbor as ourselves. That's what it means to be human; our sin is fundamentally our failure to be human as God has purposed us to be. When we sin we deny the Divine Image with which we were created to bear and be.

    I mean the joy that comes from seeing a sunset. I mean the joy that comes from seeing a child smile. I mean the joy that comes from a heart full of love rejoicing and celebrating life together with our fellow human beings. And not just for ourselves, but for the whole of creation.

    The lamb shall lay down with the leopard, the Prophet Isaiah writes, and the child-goat shall recline with the wolf. The infant shall play near the viper's den without fear.

    What we hope for in Christ is not an eternity of monotony, but an eternity of love, an eternal enjoyment of the true Good and the truly Beautiful. The enjoyment of God who gives Himself to us, and as we give ourselves to each other, and celebrate this great goodness together.

    To be human, radically human. To be radically human to one another, to be radically human to all God's creatures. To beasts and reptiles and all things that creep, crawl, swim, and fly; to all that grows from the earth and is watered by the rain. The hills and the mountains and the valleys. Every good thing which God has made (Genesis 1:31). Conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29), to be united with God in Christ by His grace (2 Peter 1:4), etc.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  16. KerimF

    KerimF New Member

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    Thank you for all these interesting references.
    But you didn't tell me what the word 'Trinity' means to you personally; unless you prefer not to talk about it or you tend to believe that the image of our Creator has to be of a Supernatural Powerful King/Ruler.

    Perhaps you like to show me what sounds wrong to you in the image of Trinity, I presented above, which I personally got from Jesus (on the Gospel) directly, not from anyone else. Naturally, I am always curious to know if someone in the world sees Trinity as I do. Thank you.
     
  17. KerimF

    KerimF New Member

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    I thought I missed where Jesus says, on the Gospel, that I am created to enjoy Him and my Father in Heaven; as Pagans are supposed to do towards their gods, in one way or another.
    To me in the least, Jesus came to enjoy me, not the opposite. So I am glad that He and my Father in Heaven are in me since I was teenager. And their Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit, guides me in life instead of my natural instincts of survival, superiority, selfishness... etc.

    Please let me know how someone, in your opinion, could love God, speaking practically, other than trusting God's Will to no limit in everything he may face in life. For example, I couldn't have the opportunity to love those who liked to play my enemies if they were not created to play evil in the first place. I mean thanks to them I gained God's Joy in me which is not limited by time or space and realized that I am not of this world.
    In other words, if someone finds hard to trust God's Will and Love in every situation he may face he can't, even if he wants to, love whoever he may meet as himself. This is why Jesus says that His two most important advice are similar (complement each other). By the way, True Love and Trust can never be commanded; that is imposed by rules on someone to live them towards another. This is true even in a worldly marriage.

    Anything limited by time or space will vanish at death. Only the joy in one's soul (if one still have it {Mark 4:3-5}) gained by living God's Unconditional Love towards all others is not limited by time and space and can, therefore, survive for eternity (in God's Realm of Love).

    Personally I give myself by not resisting evil. Otherwise,
    "For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
    And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the pagans so?


    What about the good viruses?
    Just kidding, sorry.
    Seriously, I don't classify things as being good and bad because I see in the existence of each thing (living or not) in the world (if not in the universe) a sort of importance or necessity... but this a big topic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2022
  18. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Everything needs to start with the objective.

    The differences and issues begin with misunderstanding of the objective. Most Christians like: Man’s objective is to “bring glory to God” and have scripture references to support that objective, but a person can take any commandment or direction of God given in scripture and have Biblical support for call that command: “Man’s Objective”. We are certainly commanded to do that command, so why is it not man’s objective?

    There are the two superior commands which all other commands are subordinate to and combined would be like: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.” That appears to be man’s “Mission Statement”. The huge problem with fulfilling that “Mission Statement” is the fact that the “Love” needed would have to be huge, way beyond anything man could develop, learn, deserve, earn, pay back, be instinctive to man, or somehow just be forced upon humans.

    Thus, the reason you have free will, is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

    This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help each of us to become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

    There are just somethings even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like create another Christ, since Christ has always existed, the big impossibility for us is; create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

    Read the story of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15, the young son was generously given more then he could handle (like most of us today), which the father would realize. The prodigal son returned to his father, not out of “Love”, but selfishly wanting a job he did not deserve or should even ask for. Just because the son became just willing to accept pure undeserved charity from the father he hated, allowed the father to shower him with gifts. God is that way with you.

    God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

    If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

    Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.

    God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus the willing become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

    What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time.

    This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

    This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

    All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them, burden them, to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

    Sin has purpose in helping willing humans in fulfilling their objective. God does not like it but allows it.

    Unfortunately, I, along with others, needed to see and know the brevity of life in order to respond sooner than later. Time is not on our side, since we do not get better, but worse. If everyone had at least 60 years, there would be no rush to repent and repenting does not get easier with time. We all tend to spiral down into the pigsty of life (like the prodigal son) and that does help, if when we do come to our senses we turn to the Father, but that does not have to take 60 years.

    Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.

    If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.
     
  19. KerimF

    KerimF New Member

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    Oh, I thought my memory only is short because of age.
    I replied your exact post above on my other thread... about 'command' ;)
     
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