Some thoughts on homosexuality

[Quartermaine]

If a homosexual becomes a Christian and experiences conviction about his feelings and possible gay lifestyle, I don't see how he/she seeking appropriate counseling is "behavioral suppression" and abuse. I'm talking about voluntarily seeking help. As I stated in my original post there are examples of former gays who, after salvation, experienced spiritual transformation and became heterosexual and eventually married. Why shouldn't someone allow the Holy Spirit to change him/her in this way? It's quite biblical.

There is no "appropriate counseling" and the act of such counseling is the abuse.

Reparative or conversion "therapy" is reliant on telling lies and fostering self hatred. it starts with the lie that orientation can be changed and goes on with the lie that there is something wrong with gays in the first place. Those who practice such therapies rely on an individual's low self esteem and foster that low self esteem. The methods used have no basis in science and no research to support them

The dangers of such "therapy" are well documented and those dangers are magnified when this sort of treatment is done to a child. Currently about 80% of such therapy is marketed towards minors sometimes beginning as young as age 3. Children are targeted because they aren't volunteers, they don't have a say in going and they can't stop going. Some of the immediate recommendations of reparative therapists for children is that they be socially isolated. They should be home schooled, have no outside contact except with people who fully support the idea that they are sick and no access to social networks or the internet. I've dealt with survivors who relate being locked in the basement by their parents for months at a time so they couldn't seek help.

And no, no one changes.

 

[Amittai]

We get older by the day.
The way to short circuit a pincer movement is by walking through the middle

 

[stevevw]

Citation?

Evelyn Hooker one of the psychologists used by the DSM found this to be the case in her studies.
Hooker (1962, p. 435) noted that half of her sample of 30 homosexual men regularly sought out anonymous sex at a variety of public locations; sexual monogamy was rare. Without directly stating it, Hooker may have been acknowledging the possibility that some male homosexual activity involved lower levels of delayed gratification or higher levels of impulsivity.
Even though Hooker acknowledged that homosexual identification often occurred in “late adolescence or early adulthood” (1956, p. 218), she was clear that homosexuality was a very rewarding way of life, including significant sexual gratification, so much so that many regarded it as a “superior” way of life to heterosexuality.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01494929.2012.677388
Hooker, E. (1965). Male homosexuals and their “worlds.” In J. Marmor (Ed.), Sexual inversion: The multiple roots of homosexuality (pp. 83 – 107). New York, NY

Another psychiatrist used by the DSM was Kinsley who is one of the world's most known sex experts. He concludes
“Little credence can be given to the supposition that homosexual men’s ‘promiscuity’ has been overestimated. … Almost half of the white homosexual males said that they had at least 500 different sexual partners during the course of their homosexual careers.”

Homosexuality: A Queer Problem
Homosexual men are famously promiscuous
https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/...aning-life/201006/homosexuality-queer-problem

citation?

Mardi Gras rejected Sexpo partnership to protect 'family-oriented' identity
"Often there is an over-fetishization of our communities that isn't always a healthy environment to grow up in," he wrote in the email. "Whilst the celebration [of] sex and sexuality is something we very much encourage in adults, it's not something we develop strategic partnerships around."
Pride in Protest's Evan Van Zijl said they did not support any corporate involvement in Mardi Gras but the rejection of Sexpo was "part of an ongoing problem" with how the festival treated sex and sex workers because it wanted to be "generally respectable and get that corporate money".
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...family-oriented-identity-20200226-p544j3.html

ABC - STOP advertising an ADULT festival to CHILDREN!
Recently an advertisement for Sydney's Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras was aired on ABC Me, a children's television station. How is it ok to advertise this festival for children, when many floats and parade groups include phallic symbols, nakedness, and behaviors for adults? When the website advertised segments called 'Under the Covers' by Courtney Act and pictures depicting sexual behaviors on the front page?
Signez la pétition

The fact is there has been a history of over-sexualized behavior and this has been seen in how gays express themselves in events like the gay Mardi Gra. But now this new ideology that this is all part of society some are realizing that they need to hide this aspect to be more family-friendly. But the worry is still there that this is still exposing children to sexual ideas they are not ready for.

you get to see very sexually explicit images and half-naked people dancing sexually at (straight?) Mardis Gras what does that say about heterosexuality?

I have never seen a heterosexual Mardi Gra in Australia. But if there was there would be an outcry and people would definitely be objecting to it being a family event. But it seems when it comes to gay rights no one can say anything as it is all part of inclusion. Luckily the organizations of the gay Mardi Gra have realized this themselves if not for the right reasons.

citation?

The Rise of ‘Drag Kids’—and the Death of Gay Culture
Last month, the CBC—Canada’s public television network—ran a lavishly publicized documentary about “four kid drag queens as they prepare to slay on Montreal stage.” This was marketed as child-friendly content. Indeed, the CBC promoted the documentary, titled Drag Kids, on its “CBC Kids News” channel as a fun look at children who “sashay their way into the spotlight.”

The interviewed parents defend themselves against accusations they are abusing their children by encouraging them to dress up in drag. But to do so, the parents must purport to separate drag from sex and sexuality, which is simply ahistorical. They define drag as “a way of expression,” and assure everyone that “there’s nothing sexual to it” (a premise that the CBC clearly embedded in the marketing around the documentary).
Among the fundamental premises of gay liberation was that being gay meant being a sexual person.
The Rise of ‘Drag Kids’—and the Death of Gay Culture - Quillette

LET KIDS BE QUEENS? THE AUSTRALIAN DRAG CULTURE WAR
Drag culture has gone mainstream and it’s giving a whole new generation of pint-sized Australians performers a way to express themselves. But it’s got some people concerned this isn’t just child’s play - it’s dangerous.
Let kids be queens? The Australian drag culture war

Horrifying Video Shows Drag Queen Dancing Suggestively for Young Girl While Parents Applaud. This Should Be Illegal.
WALSH: Horrifying Video Shows Drag Queen Dancing Suggestively For Young Girl While Parents Applaud. This Should Be Illegal.

citation?

Since the safe school agenda was introduced a big increase in gender dysphoria had occurred and kids were saying they were the opposite sex. But since the program has been taken out, they have settled down. This shows how the indoctrination can cause children harm and some may even go down the path of transition and permanently damage themselves.

An epidemic of transgender children is Safe Schools’ legacy
incalculable damage already has been done by teaching children that gender and sexuality is fluid, that heterosexuality is not the norm and that sex is arbitrarily assigned by a doctor at birth.

One consequence has been an epidemic in “transgender” children presenting to medical clinics since the advent of Safe Schools in June 2014.

Referrals for gender services to The Children’s Hospital at Westmead has tripled. Melbourne Royal Children’s Hospital had 250 children last year presenting with “gender dysphoria”, distress experienced because you feel you were born the wrong sex.
We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

Why Puberty Blockers Are A Clear Danger To Children’s Health
Why Puberty Blockers Are A Clear Danger To Children's Health

I’m a Pediatrician. How Transgender Ideology Has Infiltrated My Field and Produced Large-Scale Child Abuse.
I’m a Pediatrician. How Transgender Ideology Has Infiltrated My Field and Produced Large-Scale Child Abuse.

Hundreds of doctors call for an urgent inquiry into risky treatment of children who believe they are transgender - as website of man who led the petition is sabotaged
The medical profession, in Professor Whitehall's view was prescribing hormones without having a proper 'scientific basis for the medical pathway of treatment of childhood gender dysphoria'.

The veteran pediatrician said puberty blockers - taken as a forerunner to cross-sex hormones and sex-change surgery - also had the potential to stunt bone growth and memory.

'It seems that public policy and medical "best practice" is being declared in haste without a sufficient foundation of fact and reflection, and a formal parliamentary inquiry could provide that foundation.'

World-renowned child and adolescent psychiatrist Christopher Gillberg said the unproven treatment of gender-confused children was 'possibly one of the greatest scandals in medical history'.
Professor John Whitehall, doctors want parliamentary inquiry into childhood gender dysphoria | Daily Mail Online

Politicized trans groups put children at risk, says expert
Counselors and other mental health providers fear being labeled transphobic
School counselors and mental health service providers are bowing to pressures from ‘highly politicized’ transgender groups to affirm children’s beliefs that they were born the wrong sex, a leading expert has warned.
Politicised trans groups put children at risk, says expert

The fact is gender/transgender and homosexuality are often associated with high sexualization and because some want to normalize it into mainstream society we are seeing how this is an unhealthy aspect that affects children and young people. As implied by Evelyn Hooker this may be associated with delayed gratification or higher levels of impulsivity.

 

[stevevw]

You seem to equate archaic methods of "conversion therapy" with more effective means which is voluntary Christian counseling motivated by compassion and empathy. Believe it or not there are homosexuals who become believers and want internal change and do achieve this via proper help; just go on You Tube and you will find such testimonies and also presentations by properly trained Christian counselors who have this type of ministry. Remember that the gospel was created for homosexuals (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and 1 Timothy 1:8-10) and thus Jesus' redemptive work can provide liberation for them.

Unfortunately with the new Health Legislation Amendment Bill 2019 going through the Australian Parliament individuals will not be able to seek help regarding their sexuality or gender dysphoria from religious organizations or medical outlets as any alternative therapies or supports such as prayer, divine intervention, helping people to align with heterosexual orientation, aligning gender with biological sex or wait and see therapies will be seen as conversion therapy.

So even if a person wants to voluntarily seek help because they don't like the way they are or feel the State is telling them that the way they feel is not real and that wanting to get help to realign your sexuality or gender is wrong. The State is telling people that they must now accept that they are the way they are and to go along with these new ideologies and get affirming therapies. The question I want to pose is "who is really pushing conversion therapy".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy0xuJwQvmg

 

[Amittai]

I agree this is going to get over interpreted as well as being over the top in its framing.

But the one thing I feel strongest about is the way "orientation" gets turned into a red herring (through Freud, Kinsey et al).

God does things indirectly anyway.

When I heard about people discussing emotions and relationships, I joined them because the ethos didn't have an agenda other than to help discern a general christian walk for each (and yes we did seek chastity). I had always realised I was emotionally backward but it stopped gnawing at me. If I can live out a few concretes well, picking up abandoned hobbies, not going around ashamed, not harbour rats, pay bills, I can just plain enjoy life and not pose problems. This has taken me over a half-century. Some of those folks liked to use a specific group identity name for themselves but it was free and easy. We shared a wide selection of Scripture and explored prayer in general.

One doesn't solve a problem in the "sexual sphere" wholly from within the sexual sphere, in accordance with Godel's theorem.

Yes of course I'm lonely but I'm additionally interested in a huge lot more things in this world than that.

Depending on our tone in a public thread, we risk either i) pressing people's buttons (which some christians were taught to do 2) or be taken - with the best will in the world - as doing so, and there's a lot more good will here than some of the contributors possibly appear to think.

We've got to not despise outsiders and realise that God has MORE ways of helping others achieve things in life than just our way.

Also never forget that being saved is distinct (if overlapping) from entering into the Kingdom of God so this ideology of ourselves proclaiming an exclusion of people on surface grounds is potentially a mite shakier than we sometimes think. That's without in the slightest diluting the meaning of Scripture nor God's teachings for us. We have to think what part of His work is for each of us as individuals. We have to remember that we have to enlighten other christians coming from all sorts of places. This is more than trotting out information.

Some christians have given the impression they aren't interested in a wide range of concretes. At the same time this is not to complain in the least about the intense feelings of those feeling intensely. (I feel intensely about a huge range of things.)

If we make space for personal issues of a wider range of kinds, and for God's actions, we ought to get more realistic than we often have been. The under 40s inside & outside the churches have been deprived of an education, housing, work (and not by the likes of me, but by people more powerful) they don't need more burden of shame * facilely heaped on them yet awhile. We need to let God suggest His word for each in His time while church members spend more time getting a wider range of issues right by deeper teaching e.g healthy dynamics with leadership. At least the bad amplifying has stopped. God can cope with pincer movements.

* shame is also in button pushers and above all in those who organise pincer movements. Shame (in itself) is not your fault.

 

[Amittai]

[bungle]

 

[Quartermaine]

Evelyn Hooker one of the psychologists used by the DSM found this to be the case in her studies.
Hooker (1962, p. 435) noted

1962???
to quote you:
"When doing any Uni research any papers more than 10 years old are usually regarded as too old and reliable.".... "Things have changed a lot since then so, the findings are unreliable."

Another psychiatrist used by the DSM was Kinsley who is one of the world's most known sex experts. He concludes
“Little credence can be given to the supposition that homosexual men’s ‘promiscuity’ has been overestimated. … Almost half of the white homosexual males said that they had at least 500 different sexual partners during the course of their homosexual careers.”

this is from a 1978 publication so no Kinsey didn't say this as he had been dead for more than 20 years. This isn't a quote at all but something lifted from the book Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity among Men and Women by Alan Bell and Martin Weinberg.

Bell and Weinberg have long been critics of anyone attempting to use their book to make claims about
promiscuity. Their sample was neither random or representative. Without a control group of heterosexuals gathered in the same manner in the same place and time you can't draw any conclusions about promiscuity of gay men because it is entirely possible the heterosexual sample may have had a greater number of sexual partners than the homosexual sample.


If you are going to say homosexuals are more promiscuous than heterosexuals then you have to directly compare the two groups. And those studies have found that homosexual and heterosexual men have the same number of sexual partners, an average of just over seven partners in a lifetime.

Glick S.N, Morris, M. et al 2012 A comparison of sexual behavior patterns among men who have sex with men and heterosexual men and women. J of Urban Health
Johnson A.M. et al Sexual behaviour in Britain: partnerships, practices, and HIV risk behaviors. The Lancet 2011
Vansintejam, J. J. Vandervoore and D. Devroey The gay men sex studie: Prevalence of infidelity and promiscuity J of sex med 2013

Mardi Gras rejected Sexpo partnership to protect 'family-oriented' identity

You initially claimed "It has distance itself from the sex industry that up until this year was a partner in the event." this is an article on the fact that the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras refused to meet with Sexpo, an adult entertainment business to discuss a partnership. According the article this is not a change in policy for the mardi gras sponsors and the sex industry has never been part of the event.

The fact is there has been a history of over-sexualized behavior and this has been seen in how gays express themselves in events like the gay Mardi Gra. But now this new ideology that this is all part of society some are realizing that they need to hide this aspect to be more family-friendly. But the worry is still there that this is still exposing children to sexual ideas they are not ready for.

opinions, not facts

The Rise of ‘Drag Kids’—and the Death of Gay Culture

your claims was that
trans-sexual are exposing children to sexual content. this doesn't support that claim

Since the safe school agenda was introduced a big increase in gender dysphoria had occurred and kids were saying they were the opposite sex. But since the program has been taken out, they have settled down.

any evidence to back these claims up?


This shows how the indoctrination can cause children harm and some may even go down the path of transition and permanently damage themselves.

An epidemic of transgender children is Safe Schools’ legacy
incalculable damage already has been done by teaching children that gender and sexuality is fluid, that heterosexuality is not the norm and that sex is arbitrarily assigned by a doctor at birth.

One consequence has been an epidemic in “transgender” children presenting to medical clinics since the advent of Safe Schools in June 2014.

Referrals for gender services to The Children’s Hospital at Westmead has tripled. Melbourne Royal Children’s Hospital had 250 children last year presenting with “gender dysphoria”, distress experienced because you feel you were born the wrong sex.
We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

Why Puberty Blockers Are A Clear Danger To Children’s Health
Why Puberty Blockers Are A Clear Danger To Children's Health

the incredible number of false claims in would take hours to address.

I’m a Pediatrician. How Transgender Ideology Has Infiltrated My Field and Produced Large-Scale Child Abuse.
I’m a Pediatrician. How Transgender Ideology Has Infiltrated My Field and Produced Large-Scale Child Abuse.

The author Michelle Cretella is the president of the American College of Pediatrics a recognized hate group with less than 30 pediatricians as members. Cretella has authored and self published numerous junk science "studies" where she produces evidence that homosexuals are pedophiles, that homosexuals are particularly violent towards children and of course promiscuity.

One of her "studies" is of note as it was referenced in your last link. In it Cretella shows that 80 to 95 % of children treated with puberty blockers grow up to not be transsexual at all. She fails to mention that about 90% of all children on puberty blockers are on these drugs because of the medical condition precocious puberty, where puberty begins as young as age 5.

 

[Amittai]

Quartermaine, almost of your arguments here are excellent.

Children with various conditions as well as without, are being used as human shields.

One has to severely question Steve's motives in pulling in such a mass of things to button push which is exactly what the nuisance person that started the thread intended to happen at our expense.

Steve has to realise the message of Christ about making room for the other other doesn't condone anything and not "try so hard". For you Steve, what does the call to stand in the place of Christ consist of? Or are we supposed to stand in the place of the sex mad (rebranded as "romantic") nuisance person that started the thread?

 

[Amittai]

[duff edit]

 

[stevevw]

Quartermaine, almost of your arguments here are excellent.

Children with various conditions as well as without, are being used as human shields.

One has to severely question Steve's motives in pulling in such a mass of things to button push which is exactly what the nuisance person that started the thread intended to happen at our expense.

Steve has to realise the message of Christ about making room for the other other doesn't condone anything and not "try so hard". For you Steve, what does the call to stand in the place of Christ consist of? Or are we supposed to stand in the place of the sex mad (rebranded as "romantic") nuisance person that started the thread?

The issue I see is that many children and young people are being harmed. Didn't Jesus particularly stand up for young people? Even professionals like pediatricians with many years of experience see this new ideology as dangerous to children. We have had a 1000% increase in gender dysphoria for example and it is not all about transgenderism and transitioning to the opposite sex but a form of indoctrination through an ideology that wants to change nature as God intended is pushing them that way.

That is what this new ideology wants to happen. They want to redefine nature. IMO this is doing a lot of damage. You may say I have got this wrong but there are 1000's including nonreligious people who think the same. We will end up having a new child abuse situation in the future where young people have been pushed into a way of thinking that does more harm than good. Like this new conversion therapy Bill it takes an important option away for helping people and that can only be bad.

 

[Quartermaine]

The issue I see is that many children and young people are being harmed. Didn't Jesus particularly stand up for young people? Even professionals like pediatricians with many years of experience see this new ideology as dangerous to children. We have had a 1000% increase in gender dysphoria for example and it is not all about transgenderism and transitioning to the opposite sex but a form of indoctrination through an ideology that wants to change nature as God intended is pushing them that way.

That is what this new ideology wants to happen. They want to redefine nature. IMO this is doing a lot of damage. You may say I have got this wrong but there are 1000's including nonreligious people who think the same. We will end up having a new child abuse situation in the future where young people have been pushed into a way of thinking that does more harm than good. Like this new conversion therapy Bill it takes an important option away for helping people and that can only be bad.

how can a therapy that doesn't work, is based on deception and the promotion of self hate, is not based on any science, targets children and actively harms individuals be considered helpful?

 

[stevevw]

1962???
to quote you:
"When doing any Uni research any papers more than 10 years old are usually regarded as too old and reliable.".... "Things have changed a lot since then so, the findings are unreliable."

Yes and I qualified this by saying using an old paper on its own is unreliable. But when it is backed by other papers including modern ones it lends more credibility. That is what I have done. The problem you also have is that you have used the same person as support.

this is from a 1978 publication so no Kinsey didn't say this as he had been dead for more than 20 years. This isn't a quote at all but something lifted from the book Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity among Men and Women by Alan Bell and Martin Weinberg.

It is not Kinsley saying this directly when he was alive but the authors quoting Kinsley later.

If you are going to say homosexuals are more promiscuous than heterosexuals then you have to directly compare the two groups. And those studies have found that homosexual and heterosexual men have the same number of sexual partners, an average of just over seven partners in a lifetime.

Glick S.N, Morris, M. et al 2012 A comparison of sexual behavior patterns among men who have sex with men and heterosexual men and women. J of Urban Health
Johnson A.M. et al Sexual behaviour in Britain: partnerships, practices, and HIV risk behaviors. The Lancet 2011
Vansintejam, J. J. Vandervoore and D. Devroey The gay men sex studie: Prevalence of infidelity and promiscuity J of sex med 2013

The first paper you have linked acknowledge what I am saying. This paper points to 18 to 24 years having substantially higher rates of partners and over 3 times as high for 35 to 39 years and were also 2 to 3 times as likely to have concurrent partnerships (having more than one partner at the same time). This is consistent with other data.

your claims was that
trans-sexual are exposing children to sexual content. this doesn't support that claim

Yes it does the article clearly stated that. IE

Last month, the CBC—Canada’s public television network—ran a lavishly publicized documentary about “four kid drag queens as they prepare to slay on Montreal stage.” This was marketed as child-friendly content. Indeed, the CBC promoted the documentary, titled Drag Kids, on its “CBC Kids News” channel

For me, as a gay man, watching the documentary was traumatic. The interviewed parents defend themselves against accusations they are abusing their children by encouraging them to dress up in drag. But to do so, the parents must purport to separate drag from sex and sexuality, which is simply ahistorical.

What we're promoting here is something that's very radical and not scientific...And to confuse children at a young age about their gender is actually setting them up for a really incredible fall.

any evidence to back these claims up?

4,000% Explosion in Kids Identifying as Transgender, Docs Perform Double Mastectomies on Healthy Teen Girls
This year the American Academy of Pediatrics published findings that more teenagers are beginning to use "non-traditional gender terms" to self-identify.
In the UK, young people referred for "gender treatment" has increased from 97 in 2009 to 2,510 in 2017-2018, an over 4,000 percent increase in 10 years.
Therapists say children often face confusion about their gender identity but they usually figure it out on their own as they mature, so intervening before they're old enough to even understand sexuality can lead to painful mistakes.
4,000% Explosion in Kids Identifying as Transgender, Docs Perform Double Mastectomies on Healthy Teen Girls

Parent reports of adolescents and young adults perceived to show signs of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria
Recently, clinicians have reported that post-puberty presentations of gender dysphoria in natal females that appear to be rapid in onset is a phenomenon that they are seeing more and more in their clinic.
Parent reports of adolescents and young adults perceived to show signs of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria

Outbreak: On Transgender Teens and Psychic Epidemics
“Rapid-onset gender dysphoria” is a new presentation of a condition that has not been well studied. Reports online indicate that a young person's coming out as transgender is often preceded by increased social media use and/or having one or more peers also come out as transgender. These factors suggest that social contagion may be contributing to the significant rise in the number of young people seeking treatment for gender dysphoria.

Current psychotherapeutic practice involves immediate affirmation of a young person's self-diagnosis, which often leads to support for social and even medical transition. Although this practice will likely help small numbers of children, there may also be many false positives.
the incredible number of false claims in would take hours to address.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00332925.2017.1350804

the incredible number of false claims in would take hours to address.

And yet they are not claims but scientific facts from the 1000's of people who know best pediatricians with many years of experience.

Docs Warn Puberty Blockers and 'Gender Affirmative' Treatments Dangerous for Kids, Not Based on Solid Science
Docs Warn Puberty Blockers and 'Gender Affirmative' Treatments Dangerous for Kids, Not Based on Solid Science
NHS transgender clinic accused of covering up negative impacts of puberty blockers on children by Oxford professor
NHS transgender clinic accused of covering up negative impacts of puberty blockers on children by Oxford professor
Doctors: Puberty blockers are a dangerous experiment
Doctors: Puberty blockers are a dangerous experiment
Why Puberty Blockers Are A Clear Danger To Children’s Health
mounting medical evidence shows the fallacy of the cavalier implication that puberty blockers are as harmless as aspirin and can be discontinued with as little effect.

But the other concern is that most kids naturally outgrow gender dysphoria and align themselves with the Nate gender. But many are being pushed to transition with gender ideology that pushes affirmation of being the opposite sex. According to legislation being pushed through parliament, the medical professionals will not even be able to use and therapies that try to align kids with their biological sex as this would be classed as conversion therapy.

I have shown the evidence above and this is going to lead to another child abuse scandal. Just like we denied abuse in the past it is happening all over again in a different way. Adults pushing their beliefs and views ontop kids.

If this weren’t enough reason for parents to refuse such treatment for their minor children, Laidlaw says that “what parents should find truly terrifying is the psychological effect of this medication.” Under the traditional treatment for gender dysphoria, which involves “watchful waiting or pursuit of family and individual psychotherapy,” between 80 and 95 percent of adolescent patients outgrow their dysphoria naturally.
Lupron: What’s the harm?

Puberty blockers are basically artificially stunting growth. The hormones involved are not just associated with sex but have connections to a range of functions that are developing such as brain connections that are linked and not isolated. This has implications for development across a number of areas and studies are showing the effects of hormone therapies. But those supporting gender ideology at all costs will deny and hide this for the sake of normalizing it. For me, this is the real danger and abuse happening and anyone who goes along with it is implicitly supporting child abuse.

 

[stevevw]

how can a therapy that doesn't work, is based on deception and the promotion of self hate, is not based on any science, targets children and actively harms individuals be considered helpful?

What therapy are you talking about that doesn't work. The problem is that the illegal form of conversion therapy has not been practiced for years. What activists are now defining as conversion therapy is even mentioning any evidenced-based therapy or wait and see to realign people to their biological sex or orientation even when they voluntarily want to? What you have actually described gender ideology that tells people they have to follow transgender affirming therapy and they have no choice. That is the only people practicing conversion therapy by forcing people down one path only.

Tell me if there has been a massive increase in gender dysphoria recently where if it were any other area experts would say there is something else going that is causing the blow out (rapid-onset gender dysphoria). But still, the only go-to therapy being allowed to be pushed is transgender affirmation. At the same time, the same experts are saying that 80 to 90% of young people will naturally affirm their biological sex.

Doesn't this tell you that the risk of pushing kids that would have naturally affirmed their biological sex but perhaps are going through a normal incongruence in development are being pushed into dangerous therapies that can cause permanent harm? You don't have to be an expert to realize this. The self-hate will come later for these kids when what was a normal healthy stage of development has been turned into real gender dysphoria as their bodies have been pushed out of whack and cut up for no good reason and now they have to live with that..

 

[Quartermaine]

Yes and I qualified this by saying using an old paper on its own is unreliable. But when it is backed by other papers including modern ones it lends more credibility. That is what I have done. The problem you also have is that you have used the same person as support.

you mean like when you tried to claim :
Added to this is the fact that research has shown higher incidence of mental health in measures such as depression, self worth, distress, anxiety, relationship discord and sexual discord and a case can be made that showing a pathology for homosexuality
and then rejected the nearly 40 papers, all less than 20 years old with very recent studies backing up the earlier ones showing that such instances of mental health issues is directly tied to the negative effects of hate and discrimination?

but lets look at your claim. Hooker made an observation perhaps based on bias of the times but it was an observation. It was not the findings of her research.

your original claim Research has found that homosexuality is very erotic and sexual. is just so much garbage typical of the hate based attacks on a minority.

 

[Amittai]

The issue I see is that many children and young people are being harmed. Didn't Jesus particularly stand up for young people? Even professionals like pediatricians with many years of experience see this new ideology as dangerous to children. We have had a 1000% increase in gender dysphoria for example and it is not all about transgenderism and transitioning to the opposite sex but a form of indoctrination through an ideology that wants to change nature as God intended is pushing them that way.

That is what this new ideology wants to happen. They want to redefine nature. IMO this is doing a lot of damage. You may say I have got this wrong but there are 1000's including nonreligious people who think the same. We will end up having a new child abuse situation in the future where young people have been pushed into a way of thinking that does more harm than good. Like this new conversion therapy Bill it takes an important option away for helping people and that can only be bad.

I agree with you that a mushrooming counter-extreme (which I don't see Quartermaine as needing to embrace) is unjustified. Pitting some people against others using others again as humanshields has been a well worn technique for a very long time. More and more people are putting themselves in the wrong, indirectly due to lack of alertness in the churches 80 years ago, to ensure their own hearing of God's guidance about their denominations helped ensure their denominations were kept in order and the faithful not lulled in to a sense of generalised triumphalism instead of continued balanced intercession.

Concepts of "identity" are alleged to be fluid or irreconcilable. I see for example what hedrick gets at, except that he partly embraces usages I find confusing.

I feel strongly "orientations" need something to orient and that we should take crushes, mawkishness or broodiness in ourselves (in its momentary phase) light heartledly.

Everyone of all kinds & walks, has to critique hypersexualisation more sharply.

Others have to have a more cast iron counter-offer (than they think) in order to respectfully claim to address anyone's habitus. I've known people with "sexual experience" (which shapes emotions) and under ideology, and we cannot offer solutions from within those systems.

You're not wrong in all of your ideas but arguing won't cut it conclusively (is valuable background information).

And I definitely have known people on the brunt of attempts to enforce a side issue to a central issue on them. I know I "made" some people nervous by not happening to have got married yet, but I've never bothered to call myself "a" heterosexual or "a" homosexual while happening not to be in a relationship containing sexual acts or making any admitted or obvious habit of obsessing about such. The random people who casually offered that hint or tip (which I happened to find useful and that's just me), were not carrying out orientation-change techniques on me: they were of the same social status to me and degree of relationship to me as people making the opposite suggestions.

One of my previous denominations used to quiz couples about the details of their intimacy in our group. What happened to consenting adults in private? The library "drag" thing likewise fails on all counts. The fright it gives is meant to impress by traumatising. When I was younger, who we kids unofficially loosely called "queer" and non "queer" alike, at least used to dress up to a point elegantly even while dressing rather lightly.

 

[Amittai]

Politically and socially sounding the alarms is needed AND at the personal level something additional is needed.

 

[stevevw]

you mean like when you tried to claim :
Added to this is the fact that research has shown higher incidence of mental health in measures such as depression, self worth, distress, anxiety, relationship discord and sexual discord and a case can be made that showing a pathology for homosexuality
and then rejected the nearly 40 papers, all less than 20 years old with very recent studies backing up the earlier ones showing that such instances of mental health issues is directly tied to the negative effects of hate and discrimination?

I think if you remember I said that those papers were irrelevant for determining how to measure a disorder and were more about causes and that is why I said they were irrelevant. IE
Stevevw said Mar 17, 2020#377
Most of the articles you have linked are about claimed causes of social maladjustment but not how we should measure them. They try to correlate causes, so they are irrelevant for measuring what is a disorder.

But you should also remember despite this I agreed that discrimination is a cause of psychological issues but not just the one one.
Stevevw Mar 17, 2020#377
I am not saying that there is no relationship between discrimination and stigma and social functioning and mental health. Of course, if you reduce stigma for any minority group you will see improvements in mental health.

but lets look at your claim. Hooker made an observation perhaps based on bias of the times but it was an observation. It was not the findings of her research.

Yes, it was, it came out of the same findings that were used to determine homosexuality is a normal way of life. It was an outcome from the findings of the survey and not some personal observation.

your original claim Research has found that homosexuality is very erotic and sexual. is just so much garbage typical of the hate-based attacks on a minority.

If you want to believe that then that's OK. This is born out by the evidence and I have posted plenty. I have no hatred towards gays and work and support them and other minorities in my work as a social worker. I do not discriminate against people based on their sex, gender or lifestyle and the laws of my work and the state do not allow this. The nature of my work means I am confronted with people from many different minorities so I practice inclusion every day.

People find it hard that a person can acknowledge the facts about what is happening and still treat people with respect as human beings. I have a lot of experience working in the industry from the 80s so I know what I am talking about. The proof is in the pudding and my actions speak about my treatment of gays not how other people define me. But it is also important to acknowledge the truth when something is wrong and from the evidence, there is a dangerous ideology that is causing harm to people that needs exposing. True love isn't about telling people what they want to hear but what is truth.

 

[Quartermaine]

I think if you remember I that those papers were irrelevant for determining how to measure a disorder and were more about causes and that is why I said they were irrelevant.

they were posted in response you your claim: Added to this is the fact that research has shown higher incidence of mental health in measures such as depression, self worth, distress, anxiety, relationship discord and sexual discord and a case can be made that showing a pathology for homosexuality You weren't talking about any sort of measurement you were making a blanket statement that turns out to be wrong. Deal with it.

The 40 or so studies i referenced show that these higher incidences you are talking about are caused by external factors meaning they are not a indication of a pathology so yes they are relevant.

Homosexuality isn't a pathology no matter how much you may want it to be. There was no evidence it was a pathology and that is why the APA removed it from the DSM.

 

[stevevw]

I agree with you that a mushrooming counter-extreme (which I don't see Quartermaine as needing to embrace) is unjustified. Pitting some people against others using others again as humanshields has been a well worn technique for a very long time. More and more people are putting themselves in the wrong, indirectly due to lack of alertness in the churches 80 years ago, to ensure their own hearing of God's guidance about their denominations helped ensure their denominations were kept in order and the faithful not lulled in to a sense of generalised triumphalism instead of continued balanced intercession.

Concepts of "identity" are alleged to be fluid or irreconcilable. I see for example what hedrick gets at, except that he partly embraces usages I find confusing.

I feel strongly "orientations" need something to orient and that we should take crushes, mawkishness or broodiness in ourselves (in its momentary phase) light heartledly.

Everyone of all kinds & walks, has to critique hypersexualisation more sharply.

Others have to have a more cast iron counter-offer (than they think) in order to respectfully claim to address anyone's habitus. I've known people with "sexual experience" (which shapes emotions) and under ideology, and we cannot offer solutions from within those systems.

You're not wrong in all of your ideas but arguing won't cut it conclusively (is valuable background information).

And I definitely have known people on the brunt of attempts to enforce a side issue to a central issue on them. I know I "made" some people nervous by not happening to have got married yet, but I've never bothered to call myself "a" heterosexual or "a" homosexual while happening not to be in a relationship containing sexual acts or making any admitted or obvious habit of obsessing about such. The random people who casually offered that hint or tip (which I happened to find useful and that's just me), were not carrying out orientation-change techniques on me: they were of the same social status to me and degree of relationship to me as people making the opposite suggestions.

One of my previous denominations used to quiz couples about the details of their intimacy in our group. What happened to consenting adults in private? The library "drag" thing likewise fails on all counts. The fright it gives is meant to impress by traumatising. When I was younger, who we kids unofficially loosely called "queer" and non "queer" alike, at least used to dress up to a point elegantly even while dressing rather lightly.

Some people say homosexuality is a sin and its a choice. This moralizes things. Others say Gays are totally born that way and this is the other side of the coin that says it cannot be helped. I think there is a middle ground where there are biological causes that affect usual development and can cause people to develop opposite sex orientations and genders. They come from similar areas in development such as sex hormones that affect similar parts of the brain (incongruence between physical sex development and brain connections).

But added to this are the social and cultural influences that can build on the biological changes and this is what can create the ideologies that ignore any biological influence and create an ideology that humans are also meant to be gay and have fluid genders. This is based on the idea that sex and gender are on a spectrum and there is no natural fixed gender or orientation. But I think nature has given humans a fixed position but due to certain causes it has changed.

For me, by denying this we are denying any possible options/solutions that may help people and are only allowing one option affirmation that alternative genders and orientations are a natural and normal part of being human. That humans are an open slate and can be changed into whatever they want to be. IMO this changes nature and there is repercussion ie a male invading female spaces and sports, parents accepting the sexualization of children with transgender ideology, permanent damage from hormone therapy and surgery trying to create the opposite sex, artificial conception and birth, designer babies, abortion, redefining relationships, marriage, and the family.

But I think this is part of a bigger picture that stems from modernism. The idea that there is no truth and everything is relative. That humans are their own gods who determine what is right and wrong. This is affecting all areas of life and not just gender and orientation. The real issue IMO is people reject God and the truth he represents as people want to be gods in their own life. That is why when you look below the arguments of people who support these ideologies you find that it always comes back to religion.

 

[stevevw]

they were posted in response you your claim: Added to this is the fact that research has shown higher incidence of mental health in measures such as depression, self worth, distress, anxiety, relationship discord and sexual discord and a case can be made that showing a pathology for homosexuality You weren't talking about any sort of measurement you were making a blanket statement that turns out to be wrong. Deal with it.
The 40 or so studies I referenced show that these higher incidences you are talking about are caused by external factors meaning they are not an indication of a pathology so yes they are relevant.

But even my quote that you posted shows that I was referring to a pathological/biological cause as highlighted above. The paragraph before that quote also shows I was talking about biological/pathological causes
"The fact is based on biological measures there are a number of measures that show how the usual development paths are affected and as a consequence cause changes in normal development often with negative consequences".

Homosexuality isn't a pathology no matter how much you may want it to be. There was no evidence it was a pathology and that is why the APA removed it from the DSM.

You know that is not true from our previous debate and even your own paper you linked supported this. It stated that
congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) was a major cause of changes to sexual and gender orientation, especially in females.

Mar 25, 2020#444
Hines M, Brook C, Conway GS. Androgen and psychosexual development: core gender identity, sexual orientation and recalled childhood gender role behavior in women and men with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH). J Sex Res. 2004;41(1):75–81.
Although prospective studies are needed, these results suggest that those girls with CAH who show the greatest alterations in childhood play behavior may be the most likely to develop a bisexual or homosexual orientation as adults and to be dissatisfied with the female sex of assignment.
Androgen and psychosexual development: core gender identity, sexual orientation and recalled childhood gender role behavior in women and men with c... - PubMed - NCBI

It causes females to have masculine behaviors and be attracted to the same sex. CAH is a biological cause because it affects the balance of hormones (Androgen) excess amounts of male hormones being produced by the adrenal glands. This creates incongruence between physical development of genitals and the brain connections for sexuality and orientation. CAH is a autosomal recessive disease thus is a pathogen.

But there is plenty of evidence I posted in our other debate that the causes are pathological/biological. These are physical changes to development rather than outside social and cultural influences. But as I said in the last thread and this one it is more a case that there are several influences from internal causes (pathological/biological such as hormone, genetics, neurological) and external ones social, cultural and environmental.

The fact is just like the fetus can be affected by the lifestyle of the mother, and from pathogens that alter development and make children/adults more prone to certain behaviors or disorders such as with eating disorders or changes to brain chemicals making some more prone to anxiety and depression changes to orientation and gender identity can work the same. This has been scientifically verified IE.

Stress in late pregnancy may fuel binge eating in female offspring
Stress in late pregnancy may fuel binge eating in female offspring
Effects of prenatal stress can affect children into adulthood
There is now considerable evidence that the mother’s emotional state during pregnancy can affect the development of her baby’s brain.
Effects of prenatal stress can affect children into ad

Prenatal endocrine influences on sexual orientation and on sexually differentiated childhood behavior (2011)
At least 10 studies have been published in the English language on sexual orientation in girls and women with CAH in comparison to female controls [29;44;45;67;82;88;95;103;109;155]. The overwhelming conclusion from these studies is that women with CAH are less likely to be exclusively or almost exclusively heterosexual than are other women.
Prenatal endocrine influences on sexual orientation and on sexually differentiated childhood behavior
The Biological Basis of Human Sexual Orientation: Is There a Role for Epigenetics?
The proportion of adult CAH women who identify as lesbian is many times higher than in the general population and is correlated with prenatal androgenization
http://biology-web.nmsu.edu/~houde/biological basis of sexual orientation.pdf
Minireview: Hormones and Human Sexual Orientation
There is thus substantial evidence suggesting that sexual orientation, and homosexuality in particular, is influenced before birth by a set of biological mechanisms. These mechanisms include genes that affect sexual orientation by currently unidentified mechanisms and hormonal actions classically mediating sexual differentiation.
Minireview: Hormones and Human Sexual Orientation
Gay brains structured like those of the opposite sex
Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait. The scans reveal that in gay people, key structures of the brain governing emotion, mood, anxiety, and aggressiveness resemble those in straight people of the opposite sex. The differences are likely to have been forged in the womb or in early infancy,
They found that the patterns of connectivity in gay men matched those of straight women, and vice versa. In straight women and gay men, the connections were mainly into regions of the brain that manifest fear as intense anxiety. “The regions involved in phobia, anxiety, and depression overlap with the pattern we see from the amygdala,” says Savic.
This is significant, she says and fits with data showing that women are three times as likely as men to suffer from mood disorders or depression. Gay men have higher rates of depression too, she says, but it’s difficult to know whether this is down to biology, homophobia or simply feelings of being “different”.
Gay brains structured like those of the opposite sex[/QUOTE]